Grappe wants Contador to release physiological data

[Altitude]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6...ghlights-jump-in-form-for-Tour-de-France.aspx

My role is not to judge the riders, but rather to analyse and understand how they achieve their performance,” he said. “And there I wonder. For example, what concerns me is the level of performance Contador between the Dauphiné and the Tour de France. I will not go into detail, but overall he has improved his performance level between nine and ten percent, it is huge at this level. We see very clearly that at the Dauphiné, he is level with guys like Jerome Coppel, Van den Broeck, Van Garderen or Brajkovic.

 

[scribe]

Can't one just give 10% less effort so as to not peak a bit too early?

 

[Galic Ho]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6...ghlights-jump-in-form-for-Tour-de-France.aspx

Sure that sounds nice. Would be nice. Now how about everyone else.

How about asking Andy Schleck to explain how he can be dropped on a small hill in the middle of California in May by over half the peloton then rampage across the Alps in July like a madman? That is a bigger change in performance in a cyclist. AC won races all year. Schelck won squat and then turns up at the TdF the most improved GC challenger.

Ask them all to explain, the obvious ones first, or don't do it at all. This selective targetting will never work. It's just headline grabbing. Tell this guy to explain to a uni marketing or advertsing audience otherwise. The most likely explanation is that Contador was following a trend. He never races the Dauphine to win. Hasn't done so once since he became a team leader. Hence he hasn't won the race. He used it for training. Ask this guy to explain or remind those who watch cycling when was the last time a GC rider who challenged in the Tour last won the Dauphine or Tour de Suisse. I think he'll find Evans and AC are the only two who perform well across all three. Add in Valverde when he wasn't banned. There is a reason why...they have class regardless. Doesn't mean they're clean but this circular logic and selective targetting is saying one thing only. Bias.

 

[flicker]

Sure that sounds nice. Would be nice. Now how about everyone else.

How about asking Andy Schleck to explain how he can be dropped on a small hill in the middle of California in May by over half the peloton then rampage across the Alps in July like a madman? That is a bigger change in performance in a cyclist. AC won races all year. Schelck won squat and then turns up at the TdF the most improved GC challenger.

Ask them all to explain, the obvious ones first, or don't do it at all. This selective targetting will never work. It's just headline grabbing. Tell this guy to explain to a uni marketing or advertsing audience otherwise. The most likely explanation is that Contador was following a trend. He never races the Dauphine to win. Hasn't done so once since he became a team leader. Hence he hasn't won the race. He used it for training. Ask this guy to explain or remind those who watch cycling when was the last time a GC rider who challenged in the Tour last won the Dauphine or Tour de Suisse. I think he'll find Evans and AC are the only two who perform well across all three. Add in Valverde when he wasn't banned. There is a reason why...they have class regardless. Doesn't mean they're clean but this circular logic and selective targetting is saying one thing only. Bias.

Nic thought about Andy Armstrong Frank Shleck, LeMond and many other riders. Targeting specific races we will see this type of activity. It could be super dope or it could be targeting specific events. This is what I absolutly hate about LEMOND THE TDF RIDER AND LANCE THE TRI ATHELETE PHILLY SERIES MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR RIDER AND CONTADOR JUST GOT OFF BEACH WITH MY GAL WIN GIRO. IS IT LIVE OR IS IT MEMMOREX?

 

[python]

everyone missed grappe saying

‘i will not go into detail’

why not ? and

Some commentators claimed afterwards that the calculation that a VO2 Max of 99 ml/kg/minute was flawed due to the inaccurate estimation of data.

yeah, i’d give second armstrong testicle for seeing contador’s data, but i’d give both of vayer’s to see how grappe arrived at 10% ?

i say keep your jewels brother, but many would like to know how you cook the numbers and some may want to ask some questions of you. and if you dont have the jewels to put your cards on the table, you’re just flapping your tongue in the wind.

w/o sharing your calc, i don’t see why would anyone share his data with you.

 

[roundabout]

Don't see how attacking Grappe is going to achieve anything either.

 

[hrotha]

I'd like to see that data for everyone. Of course Contador is suspect due to his positive, but his form build-ups don't strike me as suspect, especially when compared to the likes of Andy Schleck (although all we know about peaking and improving your form at the pro level from years of watching cycling might well be determined by doping).

Still, while I believe it's short-sighted to focus con Contador for this particular thing, I don't think it's hypocritical or anything, as Contador has actually tested positive.

 

[SpartacusRox]

I'd like to see that data for everyone. Of course Contador is suspect due to his positive, but his form build-ups don't strike me as suspect, especially when compared to the likes of Andy Schleck (although all we know about peaking and improving your form at the pro level from years of watching cycling might well be determined by doping).

Still, while I believe it's short-sighted to focus con Contador for this particular thing, I don't think it's hypocritical or anything, as Contador has actually tested positive.

While Ac's testing positive has put him in the crosshairs, i agree with your comments in an earlier post about other riders, particularly Andy. I like Andy as a rider but he would be the prime example of a guy whose performances were more than a little extreme. Going from getting dropped on small hills in the ToC by sprinters to charging up TdF mountains to losing heaps of time in the Vuelta to riders that he would have annihilated only a month before is a concern. Although guys will say he was only training in the ToC, I do not recall a climber of his ability and youth ever being dropped by journeymen in an average quality field. He should have been able to keep up without raising a sweat.

 

[python]

Don't see how attacking Grappe is going to achieve anything either.

where did you see attacking grappe ?

grappe questioned a performance and advanced a number that he based it on - 10% improvement in contador. i don't see why would it be called an attack on him if i question his refusal to make his calc public ?

it's well known many previous cals like that where gross estimates with multiple errors.

 

[Marcus135]

To say that Andys form jump could be doping i doubt. You have seen Andy in past years in a number of races climb at that ability so we know that he can reach that level. Also 2 months is a fairly long time and easily enough to take you from low fitness levels to your peak. As training is started by just long endurance rides to get fitness up he would have been finishing that stage of his training. He would have had no need to try to hold on to the end of the group, if he was using the ToC for trainning then he would just do his own thing, which he did do. He may well have been able to hold the bunch but that would not have been in the interest of his training. He could then move on to hitting his peak easily in the time from the end of the ToC till the TDF it is very possible.

People looking at how people ride and saying someone has improved to much over a period of 2 months then calling them a doper obviously doubt cyclists way to much. Its when u see something like Landis's improvement in a single day than you can spot a doper...

 

[Nick C.]

This isn't to defend Andy Schleck but I remember when watching the ToC he looked more like he wasn't particularly trying, instead just spinning around some little gear and chatting. Before the Tour Vandevelde when interviewed for his thoughts said something to the effect that Andy Schleck was just fooling around at the ToC. Maybe VDV knows or suspects something we don't know or maybe Schleck just pulled the plug before having to "go too deep" or as it jooked put a toe in the water period. But it does seem hypocritical to call out AC after the positive and have the whole world be mum on the guy who was right there with him every climb.

 

[Big Doopie]

I do not recall a climber of his ability and youth ever being dropped by journeymen in an average quality field.

heras (in 2006?) completely lost at the tour after puerto. losing dozens and dozens of minutes in the high mountains. then one month later trouncing everyone at the vuelta.

oh, but wait a second...

ullrich, dropped on the first hills in the first 50 km of the ardennes classics. then a month later dropping nearly everyone in the tour de suisse high mountains.

oh, now wait another second...

armstrong in 2005 -- you know the guy who carmichael says one of the keys was never losing shape during the winter -- at paris-nice prologue losing tons of time to little know french riders and finishing 130th (?). An abandon a couple of stages later, a quick trip to tenerife to meet ferrari and he's back riding with the best at the tour de flandres...later that year in a prologue he catches ullrich for a minute...quite the turnaround.

oh, but wait another second...

armstrong, 2010. comes out of absolutely nowhere after posting horrible TT results including being trounced at the non-event of gila and powers to fourth in the opening prologue which happens to be outside of france. once inside france his unbelievable form quickly unravels and we see much the same rider we saw pre-ferrari at the tour...

sudden jumps in form like this have been made commonplace by epo and blood doping. it is the reason why they are so detrimental to following the sport. there is no sense of true hierarchy. at least uppers and cortisone in the 70s and 80s didn't change the hierarchy. It was virtually always the same riders at the top of the pile all season long. they could be counted on for certain results (unless they had a bad day -- oh, right, that's another thing that no longer happens). Merckx and Hinault never finished 130th of a prologue. not once. not ever.

 

[veganrob]

Can't one just give 10% less effort so as to not peak a bit too early?

Would seem to make sense.

 

[El Pistolero]

Contador becomes second at the Dauphine and all of a sudden that's bad? I really don't understand that crappy argument.

Contador was the best at the Dauphine. Not by much, but certainly the best(except of course for that one time trial and he didn't time trial good at the Tour anyway...)

Contador said a lot of times that he wasn't trying to win the Dauphine because it's too close to the Tour. And people that believe he took the Clen between the Dauphine and the Tour because his form was off during the Dauphine must believe that he was clean at the Dauphine then? And he still was the best in the mountains there. What an insult to all cyclists that couldn't beat Contador at the Dauphine lol.
Ps: I'm under no illusion that Contador is a completely clean rider, never was.

 

[flicker]

I have always thought Alberto dirty. The look in his eyes and the f ing pistol salute. Plus the insane power climbing he has shown at times, like in the Giro uphill TT which was won by Pelozotti, Mr. Hairspray.

 

[Angliru]

To say that Andys form jump could be doping i doubt. You have seen Andy in past years in a number of races climb at that ability so we know that he can reach that level. Also 2 months is a fairly long time and easily enough to take you from low fitness levels to your peak. As training is started by just long endurance rides to get fitness up he would have been finishing that stage of his training. He would have had no need to try to hold on to the end of the group, if he was using the ToC for trainning then he would just do his own thing, which he did do. He may well have been able to hold the bunch but that would not have been in the interest of his training. He could then move on to hitting his peak easily in the time from the end of the ToC till the TDF it is very possible.

People looking at how people ride and saying someone has improved to much over a period of 2 months then calling them a doper obviously doubt cyclists way to much. Its when u see something like Landis's improvement in a single day than you can spot a doper...

That doesn't explain his abysmal Vuelta performance where he was supposed to be riding in support of his loving brother.

 

[Angliru]

I have always thought Alberto dirty. The look in his eyes and the f ing pistol salute. Plus the insane power climbing he has shown at times, like in the Giro uphill TT which was won by Pelozotti, Mr. Hairspray.

We've heard your infamous "look in his eyes" quote regarding Contador, something on the lines of you "can see evil in his eyes". I thought after the initial self humiliation you'd be smart enough not to go there again, but of course, here you are......

 

[Polish]

Seems to be a bit of grandstanding by Grappe. Something Bordry would do lol.


I do not see Grappe exposing the VO2 #'s for any of HIS riders.


That said, I bet Lance's is bigger than Alberto's.

 

[jae2460]

Contador becomes second at the Dauphine and all of a sudden that's bad? I really don't understand that crappy argument.

Contador was the best at the Dauphine. Not by much, but certainly the best(except of course for that one time trial and he didn't time trial good at the Tour anyway...)

Contador said a lot of times that he wasn't trying to win the Dauphine because it's too close to the Tour. And people that believe he took the Clen between the Dauphine and the Tour because his form was off during the Dauphine must believe that he was clean at the Dauphine then? And he still was the best in the mountains there. What an insult to all cyclists that couldn't beat Contador at the Dauphine lol.
Ps: I'm under no illusion that Contador is a completely clean rider, never was.

Contador was NOT the best in the Dauphine, El Pistolero, Brakjovic was clearly superior. That is why Brakjovic won, and Contador came in second.

 

[El Pistolero]

Contador was NOT the best in the Dauphine, El Pistolero, Brakjovic was clearly superior. That is why Brakjovic won, and Contador came in second.

Yeah, watch the race again buddy. Brajko never dropped Contador in a mountain stages, just sucked wheels while Contador attacked and outsprinted Brajko for the stage win.

Brajko won the Dauphine in the time trial. Not the mountains.

 

[ChrisE]

Can't one just give 10% less effort so as to not peak a bit too early?

Exactly scribe. Only a couple of other posters have alluded to this but you are right on. It is much more fun and smart-sounding to speculate on performance off of youtube videos.

Also, quoted in the article:

I'm just trying to understand things. You can not gain ten percent of performance in two weeks between the Dauphiné and the Tour.

The first mt. stage of the TdF was July 11. AC won AdH in the DL on June 12. WTH is this clown talking about with this 2 week crap? Even worse case the Tour started 3 weeks after the finish of the DL. This guy is an idiot.

I am always amused by the supposed rational arguments on performances by looking at the TV. Nobody knows how hard somebody is actually riding, especially in events they are not peaking for. But Grappe etal can always show how smart they are by predicting future performances with big expert sounding rational talk after watching youtube.

 

[Altitude]

Well he did attempt to break Brajkovič on the Alpe and was not able to

 

[ChrisE]

Well he did attempt to break Brajkovič on the Alpe and was not able to

Maybe he wasn't going full out. Maybe he was having an off day. He is not a machine.

 

[Merckx index]

The first mt. stage of the TdF was July 11. AC won AdH in the DL on June 12. WTH is this clown talking about with this 2 week crap? Even worse case the Tour started 3 weeks after the finish of the DL. This guy is an idiot.

As is the case with most Tour riders, Bert tapered off and did not train the final week before the TDF (at least that was what he said), and even earlier than that, dropped out of the Spanish TT, claiming he had the flu or something. He had at most two weeks of hard training between the end of the Dauphine and the beginning of the TDF.

I think Grappe raises a legitimate question (though that 10% figure seems to me over the top), but I agree with another poster who says that if you're going to raise this question at all, you should bring in all the other riders in the past whose TDF performances were far above what they were doing a month earlier. Bert is hardly unique in this respect. Armstrong, Ullrich, Landis, the list is a long one.

It could be that they weren't going all out in the Dauphine or wherever, but isn't that a little inconsistent with their claim that they were using it for training? Isn't the idea of training that you go all out or pretty close? I think if Bert could have beaten Brak he would have, but he just didn't have it. Yet after just two weeks of training, he suddenly is far better than anyone but AS.

 

[ChrisE]

As is the case with most Tour riders, Bert tapered off and did not train the final week before the TDF (at least that was what he said), and even earlier than that, dropped out of the Spanish TT, claiming he had the flu or something. He had at most two weeks of hard training between the end of the Dauphine and the beginning of the TDF.

I think Grappe raises a legitimate question (though that 10% figure seems to me over the top), but I agree with another poster who says that if you're going to raise this question at all, you should bring in all the other riders in the past whose TDF performances were far above what they were doing a month earlier. Bert is hardly unique in this respect. Armstrong, Ullrich, Landis, the list is a long one.

It could be that they weren't going all out in the Dauphine or wherever, but isn't that a little inconsistent with their claim that they were using it for training? Isn't the idea of training that you go all out or pretty close? I think if Bert could have beaten Brak he would have, but he just didn't have it. Yet after just two weeks of training, he suddenly is far better than anyone but AS.

OK, show me the power numbers from AC 1 week before the TdF started vs his numbers in the DL. That's right, they don't exist in the public domain. And, if he was sick then how can he be better than when he wasn't sick 2 weeks before? Surely you aren't giving this clown a pass with this interpretation.

This Grappe is talking out of his backside. I don't disagree that AC was better in the tour than the DL, but it is impossible to say how much by looking at a TV.