Gripper grasping at straws

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Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
sure, but that was after he was repeatedly asked to express his opinion on the matter. not very proactive for someone who's dedicated his life to anti-doping.
This is what you said: "I also felt he could have supported Kimmage in public. He didn't. Not even in here."

Now you are back to making up something new, that JV was repeatedly asked? He wasn't, I asked him directly and he answered straight away.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
This is what you said: "I also felt he could have supported Kimmage in public. He didn't. Not even in here."

Now you are back to making up something new, that JV was repeatedly asked? He wasn't, I asked him directly and he answered straight away.
I do seem to remember asking him about it before you did, but I can't find it, so I'll have to grant you this point.
Should stress that, like ChewbaccaD, my interpretations of Vaughters/Garmin are also largely based on gut-feeling. I could be off, and I might be overreacting, but hitherto my feeling has been that JV could have had more of a voice wrt Kimmage.

More generally, yes, I do think Vaughters wants clean cycling. But I think many do.
And many including Vaughters also want to make a living out of cycling. There's a conflict of interest right there.
 
sniper said:
I do seem to remember asking him about it before you did, but I can't find it, so I'll have to grant you this point.
Should stress that, like ChewbaccaD, my interpretations of Vaughters/Garmin are also largely based on gut-feeling. I could be off, and I might be overreacting, but hitherto my feeling has been that JV could have had more of a voice wrt Kimmage.

More generally, yes, I do think Vaughters wants clean cycling. But I think many do.
And many including Vaughters also want to make a living out of cycling. There's a conflict of interest right there.
That last bit makes zero sense.

JV wants to make a living in cycling by doing it cleanly. How is that a conflict of interest.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
That last bit makes zero sense.

JV wants to make a living in cycling by doing it cleanly. How is that a conflict of interest.
well, there are riders involved who want to win races, make a living, feed their children. it's not just about what JV wants. Wiggo 2009. Hesjedal 2012.

JV has some excellent ideas, granted, and I generally like how he's come out to protect previous dopers from being villified.
But as pointed out regularly, a couple of dodgy markers surround Garmin (including Del Moral, Matt White, and the Girona-Valencia connection, some dodgy docs, high emphasis on medical science, etc.), and JV's mantra that cycling is so much cleaner now is not exactly supported by the facts.

It also depends on how convinced one is that Sky are doping.
I'm rather convinced, you seem less convinced, which automatically causes you to give more credence to JV's (and Millar's) words about clean cycling and clean Wiggo.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
well, there are riders involved who want to win races, make a living, feed their children. it's not just about what JV wants. Wiggo 2009. Hesjedal 2012.

JV has some excellent ideas, granted, and I generally like how he's come out to protect previous dopers from being villified.
But as pointed out regularly, a couple of dodgy markers surround Garmin (including Del Moral, Matt White, and the Girona-Valencia connection, some dodgy docs, high emphasis on medical science, etc.), and JV's mantra that cycling is so much cleaner now is not exactly supported by the facts.

It also depends on how convinced one is that Sky are doping.
I'm rather convinced, you seem less convinced, which automatically causes you to give more credence to JV's (and Millar's) words about clean cycling and clean Wiggo.
Hold on - you "agreed" with my point about the Bio passport.
Now you want to dismiss that?

Please be clear - has cycling cleaned up (from whatever point you wish to take) or not?
 
sniper said:
well, there are riders involved who want to win races, make a living, feed their children. it's not just about what JV wants. Wiggo 2009. Hesjedal 2012.

JV has some excellent ideas, granted, and I generally like how he's come out to protect previous dopers from being villified.
But as pointed out regularly, a couple of dodgy markers surround Garmin (including Del Moral, Matt White, and the Girona-Valencia connection, some dodgy docs, high emphasis on medical science, etc.), and JV's mantra that cycling is so much cleaner now is not exactly supported by the facts.

It also depends on how convinced one is that Sky are doping.
I'm rather convinced, you seem less convinced, which automatically causes you to give more credence to JV's (and Millar's) words about clean cycling and clean Wiggo.
Well done, you failed to show the conflict of interest.

I would say I keep an open mind on every possibility and try not to get involved in hyperbole, slandering, selective-quoting, mis-representation and direct accusations without a decent level of suspicion.

There are clearly things that bother me about SKY, Froome being the main one. To me their clean-team PR has failed spectacularly and one does wonder why they were so keen on pushing it if as they must have know it was impossible. Right now SKY have definite questions that need to answered.

Garmin I have less concerns about, having spent time cycling in Girona, I view the fact they are based there as a nothing concern. Yes, they have lot's of skeleton's but they never claimed they didn't and I believe most pro-cyclist don't want to dope and given the chance to do so, many would give up doping.

The whole Del Moral/Lowe/White has been over-blown into something its not by people like yourself who just want to slam Garmin.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Well done, you failed to show the conflict of interest.

I would say I keep an open mind on every possibility and try not to get involved in hyperbole, slandering, selective-quoting, mis-representation and direct accusations without a decent level of suspicion.

There are clearly things that bother me about SKY, Froome being the main one. To me their clean-team PR has failed spectacularly and one does wonder why they were so keen on pushing it if as they must have know it was impossible. Right now SKY have definite questions that need to answered.

Garmin I have less concerns about, having spent time cycling in Girona, I view the fact they are based there as a nothing concern. Yes, they have lot's of skeleton's but they never claimed they didn't and I believe most pro-cyclist don't want to dope and given the chance to do so, many would give up doping.

The whole Del Moral/Lowe/White has been over-blown into something its not by people like yourself who just want to slam Garmin.
Fair enough, except for the end.
It's not about slamming Garmin. That's where you in this case, and Wiggo in his famous TdF interview are wrong: when we ask the difficult questions over and over again, it's not because we want to slam cycling or slam Wiggins or slam Garmin, it's because we want to be able to watch cycling again and believe in what we see.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Hold on - you "agreed" with my point about the Bio passport.
Now you want to dismiss that?

Please be clear - has cycling cleaned up (from whatever point you wish to take) or not?
"cleaner" is not an interesting issue if the number of cheats remains the same. Who cares if the gross quantities of doping have plummeted if the nett number of cheats remains stable.

Vaughters' claim of cleaner cycling relates directly to Sky. There is no doubt in my mind that Sky are dopers. So no, cycling imo hasn't cleaned up a single bit, even though I grant that the gross quantity of doping may have been reduced owing to the passport.

A(nother) possibly negative aspect of the passport is the following:
If you want to microdope within the bandwidth of the passport, you need highly qualified medical personel. It could mean that PED-abuse will become (or perhaps already is) concentrated in the richer echelons of the peloton.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I doubt Madiot. His dealings with Bassons left a lot to be desired IMO. It was while riding for Madiot's team in 1999 which Bassons left the team in the early hours.

Not defending Bassons was appalling.
remi di gregorio :D
 
Dec 7, 2010
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sniper said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/anne-gripper-describes-armstrong-as-a-pathological-liar
FFS, Anne.

Particularly troublesome bits:
I.
Right, so the USADA file was erratic wrt Lance 2009/10?
Please be clear, Anne.
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II.
Inference: Contador is indeed considered dirty by the UCI. Great, but if Contador is a blooddoper, and if the passport is such a success, as Anne claims, why wasn't Contador ever caught for a passport violation? Why wasn't a passport case ever opened against him?
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III.
Inference: the lack of a train in 2011 should apparently be taken as an indication of cleanliness. Great, so what does that tell us about 2012, Anne?

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A reminder to Anne from Michael:


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Jonathan, is Anne's way the way forward?
Who does this dude Gripper think he is anyhow? :eek:
 
Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
Fair enough, except for the end.
It's not about slamming Garmin. That's where you in this case, and Wiggo in his famous TdF interview are wrong: when we ask the difficult questions over and over again, it's not because we want to slam cycling or slam Wiggins or slam Garmin, it's because we want to be able to watch cycling again and believe in what we see.
But you don't ask questions.

You are an extremist, and you have used the Garmin del Moral case to back up your points to suggest Garmin/Jv are running a doping team.

The Lowe/JV emails show that when Lowe went to LdM it was not to dope, but the association alone was worrying.
When JV found out about it he went to Australia to sack White, for bringing Lowe to a dodgy Doc - compare and contrast that with Sky.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
"cleaner" is not an interesting issue if the number of cheats remains the same. Who cares if the gross quantities of doping have plummeted if the nett number of cheats remains stable.

Vaughters' claim of cleaner cycling relates directly to Sky. There is no doubt in my mind that Sky are dopers. So no, cycling imo hasn't cleaned up a single bit, even though I grant that the gross quantity of doping may have been reduced owing to the passport.

A(nother) possibly negative aspect of the passport is the following:
If you want to microdope within the bandwidth of the passport, you need highly qualified medical personel. It could mean that PED-abuse will become (or perhaps already is) concentrated in the richer echelons of the peloton.
Surely, if the numbers of dopers are the same (not that you are I can suggest if thats true or not but) but they are doping less, that but definition is 'cleaner'

Forget your obsession with JV for a moment - my question was quite easy, Please be clear - has cycling cleaned up (from whatever point you wish to take) or not?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Boeing said:
So he is a liar but was telling the truth about 2009?
According to this Australian guy named Gripper he is telling the truth.

But anyone who tells that many lies expects us to believe that he was "absolutely" not crossing that line in 2009 and 2010?

JV says it is all clean since back when "YardStick" was showing us the way back in 2009 when "YardStick" "Wiggo" and TommyD's Cafe suddenly found Rice Cakes.

So glad this guy Gripper is around to give us the confidence in the Passport.

I am surprised He is not more liked in the clinic,,,considering wasn't it this guy who said there is no place in Australian Tri for BigPharma?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
But you don't ask questions.

You are an extremist, and you have used the Garmin del Moral case to back up your points to suggest Garmin/Jv are running a doping team.

The Lowe/JV emails show that when Lowe went to LdM it was not to dope, but the association alone was worrying.
When JV found out about it he went to Australia to sack White, for bringing Lowe to a dodgy Doc - compare and contrast that with Sky.
extremist? who pulled the wool over your eyes? things have happened in the past 20+ years. Garmin have a GT winner in their ranks. No reason to feel sorry for them. All reason to be skeptical.

check out the tennis thread for some data on Matt's home town.
but regardless, del moral was never going to be a stand-alone thing.

Here's a deal: you explain wiggins 2009 to me and I'll be quiet for the rest of the evening.
 
May 19, 2012
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sniper said:
"cleaner" is not an interesting issue if the number of cheats remains the same. Who cares if the gross quantities of doping have plummeted if the nett number of cheats remains stable.

Vaughters' claim of cleaner cycling relates directly to Sky. There is no doubt in my mind that Sky are dopers. may have been reduced owing to the passport.

A(nother) possibly negative aspect of the passport is the following:
If you want to microdope within the bandwidth of the passport, you need highly qualified medical personel. It could mean that PED-abuse will become (or perhaps already is) concentrated in the richer echelons of the peloton.
Entirely reasonable.

Dr. Maserati said:
But you don't ask questions.

You are an extremist, and you have used the Garmin del Moral case to back up your points to suggest Garmin/Jv are running a doping team.

The Lowe/JV emails show that when Lowe went to LdM it was not to dope, but the association alone was worrying.
When JV found out about it he went to Australia to sack White, for bringing Lowe to a dodgy Doc - compare and contrast that with Sky.
Nice personal attack!

Maybe JV is an extremist too?

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/286926528963551233
 
Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
extremist? who pulled the wool over your eyes? things have happened in the past 20+ years. Garmin have a GT winner in their ranks. No reason to feel sorry for them. All reason to be skeptical.

check out the tennis thread for some data on Matt's home town.
but regardless, del moral was never going to be a stand-alone thing.

Here's a deal: you explain wiggins 2009 to me and I'll be quiet for the rest of the evening.
Yip - you're an extremest when you think what I said about del Moral has even anything to do with Wiggins.
I have zero faith in Sky.

BTW - I am not asking you to be quiet, quite the opposite, I want you to answer my question.
What I don't want is continued diversion.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Surely, if the numbers of dopers are the same (not that you are I can suggest if thats true or not but) but they are doping less, that but definition is 'cleaner'

Forget your obsession with JV for a moment - my question was quite easy, Please be clear - has cycling cleaned up (from whatever point you wish to take) or not?
From 2005 sure it is a bit cleaned up.

Is it clean....NO CHANCE.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Surely, if the numbers of dopers are the same (not that you are I can suggest if thats true or not but) but they are doping less, that but definition is 'cleaner'

Forget your obsession with JV for a moment - my question was quite easy, Please be clear - has cycling cleaned up (from whatever point you wish to take) or not?
quantity has gone down, sure.
quality has gone up, imo.
more sophisticated.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
quantity has gone down, sure.
quality has gone up, imo.
more sophisticated.
One of your better answers. Appreciate it.

So, that means cleanER.
I would agree with more sophisticated too - but doesn't that actually confirm that the Bio Passport works, as it forces the dopers/docs to be resourceful.

I am not sure the quality is any different, same PEDs/methods so quality is the same.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
One of your better answers. Appreciate it.

So, that means cleanER.
I would agree with more sophisticated too - but doesn't that actually confirm that the Bio Passport works, as it forces the dopers/docs to be resourceful.

I am not sure the quality is any different, same PEDs/methods so quality is the same.
cleaner, granted.

But the passport I fear won't bring us clean GT winners. It might bring us clean grupettos though.
As I said, the disadvantage of the passport is that PED-abuse will become concentrated in the richer echelons of the peloton: only those with sufficient financial means will be able to dope smart. Those in the lower ranks will face higher risks. Clean grupettos and dirty podiums. Larger gaps between rich and poor.
But that doesn't mean the passport must be abandoned, obviously. As you said already, a first step would be to outsource it. Take it away from the UCI.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
cleaner, granted.
Progress!

sniper said:
But the passport I fear won't bring us clean GT winners. It might bring us clean grupettos though.
As I said, the disadvantage of the passport is that PED-abuse will become concentrated in the richer echelons of the peloton: only those with sufficient financial means will be able to dope smart. Those in the lower ranks will face higher risks. Clean grupettos and dirty podiums. Larger gaps between rich and poor.
But that doesn't mean the passport must be abandoned, obviously. As you said already, a first step would be to outsource it. Take it away from the UCI.
Yes & no.
Agree that being a higher earner is an advantage to fight a case brought by UCI - so they would only persue if absolutley sure, which is nearly impossible.

I would think that at this stage what a Doc can do to bypass flagging the BP is limited, regardless of resources, so it means that everyone has throttled back.
If thats the case, then clean(ish/er) riders can now do quite well.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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question, has it ever been clean.

why do we assume now is different?

what is the objective of anti-doping?

are not the objective(s) reverse engineered or post-facto. So it is all a fuzzy gestalt of justification.

would anyone inside the sport tell us the truth, or will they just be smeared like Andreu? the problem in this, it is a paradox because the barrier to entry is accepting the status quo, and any riders who reject these values elect to avoid being a pro on the continent. so, for starters, the pool is self-selective. The pool of athletes with a different ethic chose the red pill, and left the arena stage right.

*no, I dont think everyone dopes. but the ones who win and garner power, and influence, and rewards. The patron and apparatchiks.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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blackcat said:
question, has it ever been clean.

why do we assume now is different?
If "it" means cycling, then no, never been clean - and more importantly it never will be clean.
blackcat said:
what is the objective of anti-doping?
To catch dopers and allow clean athletes compete.

blackcat said:
are not the objective(s) reverse engineered or post-facto. So it is all a fuzzy gestalt of justification.

would anyone inside the sport tell us the truth, or will they just be smeared like Andreu? the problem in this, it is a paradox because the barrier to entry is accepting the status quo, and any riders who reject these values elect to avoid being a pro on the continent. so, for starters, the pool is self-selective. The pool of athletes with a different ethic chose the red pill, and left the arena stage right.

*no, I dont think everyone dopes. but the ones who win and garner power, and influence, and rewards. The patron and apparatchiks.
Dekker and a lot of the guys at Rabo have been pretty vocal lately, I don't yet see any smear against them.
 

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