Has there ever been a case similar to Valverde?

[hrotha]

Whether we like him or not, for various reasons, Alejandro understands that a true champion needs to live up to the standards set by the greats that came before.

Then how come racing from February to October is the only thing Valverde does like one of those old school champions? And how come he regularly skips monuments for some small stage race in Spain? He didn't even ride MSR in 2007-2014.

Valverde doesn't understand that kind of thing. He's just too damn good.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Now in this category, he's nothing like Eddy or Hinault. But still: what a monster of a rider. I hate Valverde. But if you ask me, he and Nibali have the best riding styles, that I imitate when on my bike. Well, except for my Bertie dancing on the pedals, and Pinot fist-pumps .

You need to try Landa's out:

a) monstrous gear
b) imitate you are following attacks out of the saddle in an even more monstrous gear
c) you are not allowed to breath

 

[ice&fire]

Now in this category, he's nothing like Eddy or Hinault. But still: what a monster of a rider. I hate Valverde. But if you ask me, he and Nibali have the best riding styles, that I imitate when on my bike. Well, except for my Bertie dancing on the pedals, and Pinot fist-pumps .

You need to try Landa's out:

a) monstrous gear
b) imitate you are following attacks out of the saddle in an even more monstrous gear
c) you are not allowed to breath

Let him start with something easier: Alaphilippe's handlebar slamming

 

[trevim]

Now in this category, he's nothing like Eddy or Hinault. But still: what a monster of a rider. I hate Valverde. But if you ask me, he and Nibali have the best riding styles, that I imitate when on my bike. Well, except for my Bertie dancing on the pedals, and Pinot fist-pumps .

You need to try Landa's out:

a) monstrous gear
b) imitate you are following attacks out of the saddle in an even more monstrous gear
c) you are not allowed to breath

Let him start with something easier: Alaphilippe's handlebar slamming

I'm a specialist in that Alaphilippe move. Now I'm just trying to replicate his 250km stamina

 

[dastott]

Re: Re:

Can't understand how people rate Valverde's palmares over Nibali. All 3 GTs and Lombardia easily trumps Valverde's 1 GT and LBL. Winning the big races is what makes a cyclist remembered although Valverde's consistency is amazing. Still a long way behind Sean Kelly though who was both consistent and won 1 GT and 4 of the 5 monuments.

Here it is:
96 wins, 41 World Tour - Valverde
41 win, 16 WT - Nibali

Vuelta, 6 podiums, 14 Top10 placings, 13 GT stages, 3xPoints class. - Valverde
Giro, Tour, Vuelta, 4 podiums, 10 Top10, 10 stages - Nibali

6 WCRR medals, 3xLiege, 5 Monument podiums, 4x Fleche, 2x San Sebastian
4th place at the WCRR, Lombardia, 2 podiums, GP Plouay

2xDauphine, Catalunya + 15 stages - Valverde
2x Tirreno + 1 stage - Nibali

2x Spanish RR, Spanish ITT, Roma Maxima, GP Indurain, Paris-Camembert, Vuelta a Murcia, 3x Klasika Primavera, 2x Trofeo Deia, Trofeo Manacor, Trofeo Soler, GP Villafranca de Ordizia, Trofeo Cala Millor - Valverde
2x Italian RR, GP Industria, Giro di Toscana, Giro dell'Appennino, GP Citta di Camaiore, Trofeo Melinda, Coppa Bernocchi, Tre Valli Varesine - Nibali

4xVuelta a Andalucia, 3x Vuelta a Murcia, 2x Comunidad Valenciana, Vuelta a Burgos, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon - Valverde
2x Giro del Trentino, Tour de San Luis, Tour of Slovenia, Giro di Padania, Tour of Oman - Nibali

4x World Tour No.1, 10x Top10 - Valverde
5x Top10 - Nibali

Take a good look at their respective palmares. And if you still think the same, I rest my case

Thanks for providing the comparison. Valverde's won a lot of races but, as I said, Nibali has won the two biggest races in cycling - the Tour and the Giro. Valverde has never been a factor to win either of those races, although could be this year in the Giro. Not a fan of either rider but I think even Valverde himself would swap all of his wins for a TdF and Giro.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Can't understand how people rate Valverde's palmares over Nibali. All 3 GTs and Lombardia easily trumps Valverde's 1 GT and LBL. Winning the big races is what makes a cyclist remembered although Valverde's consistency is amazing. Still a long way behind Sean Kelly though who was both consistent and won 1 GT and 4 of the 5 monuments.

Here it is:
96 wins, 41 World Tour - Valverde
41 win, 16 WT - Nibali

Vuelta, 6 podiums, 14 Top10 placings, 13 GT stages, 3xPoints class. - Valverde
Giro, Tour, Vuelta, 4 podiums, 10 Top10, 10 stages - Nibali

6 WCRR medals, 3xLiege, 5 Monument podiums, 4x Fleche, 2x San Sebastian
4th place at the WCRR, Lombardia, 2 podiums, GP Plouay

2xDauphine, Catalunya + 15 stages - Valverde
2x Tirreno + 1 stage - Nibali

2x Spanish RR, Spanish ITT, Roma Maxima, GP Indurain, Paris-Camembert, Vuelta a Murcia, 3x Klasika Primavera, 2x Trofeo Deia, Trofeo Manacor, Trofeo Soler, GP Villafranca de Ordizia, Trofeo Cala Millor - Valverde
2x Italian RR, GP Industria, Giro di Toscana, Giro dell'Appennino, GP Citta di Camaiore, Trofeo Melinda, Coppa Bernocchi, Tre Valli Varesine - Nibali

4xVuelta a Andalucia, 3x Vuelta a Murcia, 2x Comunidad Valenciana, Vuelta a Burgos, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon - Valverde
2x Giro del Trentino, Tour de San Luis, Tour of Slovenia, Giro di Padania, Tour of Oman - Nibali

4x World Tour No.1, 10x Top10 - Valverde
5x Top10 - Nibali

Take a good look at their respective palmares. And if you still think the same, I rest my case

Thanks for providing the comparison. Valverde's won a lot of races but, as I said, Nibali has won the two biggest races in cycling - the Tour and the Giro. Valverde has never been a factor to win either of those races, although could be this year in the Giro. Not a fan of either rider but I think even Valverde himself would swap all of his wins for a TdF and Giro.

You're trying to simplify things, but it's not really like that. Every race counts, every win counts, every placement... For example, Gaston Nencini won Tour and Giro, but is he a better rider than Raymond Poulidor, who only won Vuelta, has lots of GT podiums, won and podiumed some classics, won couple of medals at the WC without gold, won some stage races as well. Ring any bells?

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Re:

Can't understand how people rate Valverde's palmares over Nibali. All 3 GTs and Lombardia easily trumps Valverde's 1 GT and LBL. Winning the big races is what makes a cyclist remembered although Valverde's consistency is amazing. Still a long way behind Sean Kelly though who was both consistent and won 1 GT and 4 of the 5 monuments.

Here it is:
96 wins, 41 World Tour - Valverde
41 win, 16 WT - Nibali

Vuelta, 6 podiums, 14 Top10 placings, 13 GT stages, 3xPoints class. - Valverde
Giro, Tour, Vuelta, 4 podiums, 10 Top10, 10 stages - Nibali

6 WCRR medals, 3xLiege, 5 Monument podiums, 4x Fleche, 2x San Sebastian
4th place at the WCRR, Lombardia, 2 podiums, GP Plouay

2xDauphine, Catalunya + 15 stages - Valverde
2x Tirreno + 1 stage - Nibali

2x Spanish RR, Spanish ITT, Roma Maxima, GP Indurain, Paris-Camembert, Vuelta a Murcia, 3x Klasika Primavera, 2x Trofeo Deia, Trofeo Manacor, Trofeo Soler, GP Villafranca de Ordizia, Trofeo Cala Millor - Valverde
2x Italian RR, GP Industria, Giro di Toscana, Giro dell'Appennino, GP Citta di Camaiore, Trofeo Melinda, Coppa Bernocchi, Tre Valli Varesine - Nibali

4xVuelta a Andalucia, 3x Vuelta a Murcia, 2x Comunidad Valenciana, Vuelta a Burgos, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon - Valverde
2x Giro del Trentino, Tour de San Luis, Tour of Slovenia, Giro di Padania, Tour of Oman - Nibali

4x World Tour No.1, 10x Top10 - Valverde
5x Top10 - Nibali

Take a good look at their respective palmares. And if you still think the same, I rest my case

Thanks for providing the comparison. Valverde's won a lot of races but, as I said, Nibali has won the two biggest races in cycling - the Tour and the Giro. Valverde has never been a factor to win either of those races, although could be this year in the Giro. Not a fan of either rider but I think even Valverde himself would swap all of his wins for a TdF and Giro.

You're trying to simplify things, but it's not really like that. Every race counts, every win counts, every placement... For example, Gaston Nencini won Tour and Giro, but is he a better rider than Raymond Poulidor, who only won Vuelta, has lots of GT podiums, won and podiumed some classics, won couple of medals at the WC without gold, won some stage races as well. Ring any bells?

And by comparing Poulidor's palmares to Valverde's without considering context, you're simplifying matters even more. Poulidor got his Tour podiums as a by-product of challenging for victory against some of the greatest GT riders of all time, and coming very close to beating them; Valverde got his Tour podium purely because he had a team all but dedicated to it and because the other podium contenders were badly out of shape. Not all wins and placements are created equal.

 

[ice&fire]

Re: Re:

And by comparing Poulidor's palmares to Valverde's without considering context, you're simplifying matters even more. Poulidor got his Tour podiums as a by-product of challenging for victory against some of the greatest GT riders of all time, and coming very close to beating them; Valverde got his Tour podium purely because he had a team all but dedicated to it and because the other podium contenders were badly out of shape. Not all wins and placements are created equal.

Let's see if I got this right: Poulidor got his podiums against Anquetil and Merckx and Nibali got his wins against Mosquera, Urán and Peraud

 

[Tonton]

Now in this category, he's nothing like Eddy or Hinault. But still: what a monster of a rider. I hate Valverde. But if you ask me, he and Nibali have the best riding styles, that I imitate when on my bike. Well, except for my Bertie dancing on the pedals, and Pinot fist-pumps .

You need to try Landa's out:

a) monstrous gear
b) imitate you are following attacks out of the saddle in an even more monstrous gear
c) you are not allowed to breath

Let him start with something easier: Alaphilippe's handlebar slamming

My handlebar slamming skills are almost Nacer-ish .

Back to Valverde. Who knows how any GTs he would have won had he dedicated himself to a Froome-type of schedule. And I agree somewhat with the comparisons with Poulidor, as it relates to the record being comparable...even though Poulidor was a better rider IMO.

I also liked one post suggesting that Valverde will be more appreciated in the future, like Kelly. Everybody liked Sean, but it was only when looking back at his body of work that fans really understood how good he was.

 

[Squire]

I'm as big a Valverde fan as they come, to the extent that 2011 was by far the worst season for me to be following cycling, only tempered by my other big favourite, Klöden, winning Pais Vasco.

And I find it incredibly sad that we are (rightfully) discussing Valverde's palmares against Nibali's over several pages. Although I have a lot of respect for Nibali and his abilities, I agree with the poster that suggested those two are the exact opposite regarding achievement relative to talent.

Being a Valverde fan is almost as much about frustration as it is about joy. For all his victories, he's also the nearly man of all nearly men. There are remarkably few of his triumphs where you'd say after the race that he was lucky. And when you flip the coin, all the times where he's had lady luck against him is saddening. Sure, a lot of the times he's created his own bad luck (e.g. Vuelta '08, although he wouldn't have won that anyway), and a lot of his podiums are races where he couldn't really have hoped for more.

But if he had just had his fair share of good fortune, I'm certain we would never have this Valverde/Nibali discussion. The 2006 Tour was his Nibali '14 moment. The biggest contenders were out of the race, Valverde was odds-on favourite, but then of course he lost the first week crash lottery. Not to mention losing two of his best years to a suspension, with the preceding no-racing-in-Italy debacle. Or the amount of times he's been left behind with a puncture (Vuelta '12, Tour '13, the latter would likely have seen his long-awaited podium come two years earlier). And don't get me started on the Worlds.

As for how many GTs he'd have won with a Froome-like schedule, I don't think he's ever had it in him to dominate a GT like that, so I don't think it would have made a major difference. I'm very happy I can follow him at his best all year long, but as I've tried to show, rooting for Valverde is almost as much about rueing near-misses as it is enjoying his successes.

 

[TourOfTexas]

He's a Jalabert -20lbs.

 

[gunara]

Re:

I'm as big a Valverde fan as they come, to the extent that 2011 was by far the worst season for me to be following cycling, only tempered by my other big favourite, Klöden, winning Pais Vasco.

And I find it incredibly sad that we are (rightfully) discussing Valverde's palmares against Nibali's over several pages. Although I have a lot of respect for Nibali and his abilities, I agree with the poster that suggested those two are the exact opposite regarding achievement relative to talent.

Being a Valverde fan is almost as much about frustration as it is about joy. For all his victories, he's also the nearly man of all nearly men. There are remarkably few of his triumphs where you'd say after the race that he was lucky. And when you flip the coin, all the times where he's had lady luck against him is saddening. Sure, a lot of the times he's created his own bad luck (e.g. Vuelta '08, although he wouldn't have won that anyway), and a lot of his podiums are races where he couldn't really have hoped for more.

But if he had just had his fair share of good fortune, I'm certain we would never have this Valverde/Nibali discussion. The 2006 Tour was his Nibali '14 moment. The biggest contenders were out of the race, Valverde was odds-on favourite, but then of course he lost the first week crash lottery. Not to mention losing two of his best years to a suspension, with the preceding no-racing-in-Italy debacle. Or the amount of times he's been left behind with a puncture (Vuelta '12, Tour '13, the latter would likely have seen his long-awaited podium come two years earlier). And don't get me started on the Worlds.

As for how many GTs he'd have won with a Froome-like schedule, I don't think he's ever had it in him to dominate a GT like that, so I don't think it would have made a major difference. I'm very happy I can follow him at his best all year long, but as I've tried to show, rooting for Valverde is almost as much about rueing near-misses as it is enjoying his successes.

I have a lot of respect for Nibali, but when I look back at their careers not only through their results but also in how I followed them race by race, season by season, I realize I compare a very good rider with....a giant of my cycling-watching days. How many intense Valverde day have I had - regardless I liked him or not - when he's strong enough to win no matter the oppositions. The wows, the oohs, the scorns, the jokes, the impression that I got that he's strong enough for most things, that he's a big deal most of the time. Can't say the same thing about Nibali, even with his palmares.

 

[yaco]

Valverde is a winner - Though winners are disliked on this forum.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Valverde is a winner - Though winners are disliked on this forum.

The whole discussion on the previous pages was how he isn't a winner

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Valverde is a winner - Though winners are disliked on this forum.

The whole discussion on the previous pages was how he isn't a winner

Yes he is. And no, discussion wasn't about that

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Valverde is a winner - Though winners are disliked on this forum.

The whole discussion on the previous pages was how he isn't a winner

Yes he is. And no, discussion wasn't about that

Really? I thought it was how Bala should've won more with his insane talent? He is a winner but is also a nearly man.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

I'd definitely take Nibali's palmares over Valverde's

I think his results at the WCRR give a great example of Valverde. (no need to do a most top 10s without win for WCRRs specifically). Up there in every classic, stage race or GT, but when the biggest prizes in cycling are for the takening, he just misses out on the biggest ones

Yes his results at WCRR gives a great example of what rider he is, how versatile and great rider he is. Do you know how hard is to get a top placement in a race that completely change parcours every year. And to done that year after year! He has 6 medals, and in current peloton you only got two riders with 2 medals! 6 (SIX) Medals!!! He has more medals than some countries (in fact only SIX countries have more medals then him)! Should I remind you he's the all time leader (quite comfortably) in the almost 90 years of WCRR history. Many would say he didn't won it, but I would say his six medals are at least equal to a WCRR Gold, and in my opinion they worth much more

This says it the best about Valverde. I'm not a fan, but you have to tip your hat to his WCRR record (and I don't even rate the event THAT highly), consistency in a number of other one day races, versatility (up there in the gc regularly in GT's, would have better overall results in the Tour with better luck), and longevity.

 

[ILovecycling]

One of the biggest mysteries of my whole life is...how the heck I could have look forward to his comeback few years ago? Like what?!!!
I always asking myself this question when seeing him 'racing' ...

 

[SevenTimeTdfChamp]

Its ludicrous to think that the actual Valverde with 30+years has the same mindset as when he was a late-teenager.

His actions speak for himself: he consistently rides many classics and competes in GTs year after year.

The big tragedy about Valverde's career is not winning a WC after all this time. Lombardia is another story because it is only this late years that he has tried.

Have you ever seen Valverde cry after winning a classic ? Yet he cried after finishing 3rd in tdf... I still thinks the GT`s means more to him than the classics