Have bike makers gone mad?

[gree0232]

I have to admit that I am amazed at how quickly, almost absurdly quickly, that prices for bikes and components have gone through the roof of late. A case in point:

A 2009 Hyundai Accent lists (no discounts mind you) for $12,745.

A new Pinarello Prince, with Super Record group and set of Zipp 404 hoops in a package discout from a reputable dealer costs $11,420.61.

I hope you were not expecting a power meter with that?

So, hundreds of pounds of steel, with a roof, four wheels, with an engine provided to help you get up those hills (and who among us wouldn't like one of those from time to time as we slog up a hill?) now only costs about a grand more than a few pounds of titanium and carbon fiber?

I have no problem paying for premium quality, and even paying a great deal more for the obvious quality differences between a department store huffy and a real racer, but this has just gotten absurd. Engineering and raw material costs for bikes cannot be equal to that of cars (even small cars). There is an obvious disconnect here when a additional cog and the loss of a few grams now costs $3,000 dollars (For which, if you use Ebay, you can get a fully equipped, with old Dura Ace or Campy, full carbon bike).

I think SRAM has it right, as it has a high end gruppo with amazing quality, and a new Rival and Force group that are both high quality and reasonably affordable.

I was also happy to see Colnago drop the price on its excellent, to put it mildly, C50, and then flabbergasted to see them charging $6,500 for the new EPS. I realize the prices are set by what the market will pay, but the downside is that only fleeting few will be able to dabble in their fantasy by riding the same bike as their hero up the same mountains or along the same routes.

Undoutedly, this was not a problem in the Merckx era.

 

[Greg Johnson]

A 2009 Hyundai Accent lists (no discounts mind you) for $12,745.

A new Pinarello Prince, with Super Record group and set of Zipp 404 hoops in a package discout from a reputable dealer costs $11,420.61.

One of them will get you from A to B and has a better saftey rating...oh poor Hyundai will never shake its stigma.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[BroDeal]

The price has nothing to do with the engineering or the quality or the cost of the materials or the manufacturing. The biggest feature of expensive, top end bikes is the price. That is essentially what they are selling: The price. There is a certain segment of the market that's primary purchase criteria is a cost that will impress their riding buddies.

Hence you get insane paradoxes like a custom frame handmade in the U.S. by craftsmen making a living wage in America can cost less money than a mass produced frame made in China by people making a fraction of the U.S. minimum wage.

It is also the reason why costs have way outstripped inflation. Every manufacturer wants to price their product as high or higher than everyone elses, so there is a positive feedback loop. This seems to affect just most everything in cycling. The only thing I can think of that seems to be immune is tires.

Thank the yuppies. The same type of jerkoff who overpays relative to his income for a BMW to impress his neighbors will buy a bike on credit to impress his group ride bros.

 

[krebs303]

guys who need a $12,000 bike get them for free.
yuppies=low performance drivers in high performance cars.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

guys who need a $12,000 bike get them for free.

Yeah, but keep in mind that just ten years ago the average cost of owning a "pro" bike was around 2k. Granted these were steel and aluminum, but still attainable for the average rube. Back in '98 I bought a Colnago MasterXLight for $900 F&F, today that same rig is $2500. If you want to ride a carbon "pro" bike now, you either have to be in the correct tax bracket, or be extremely irresponsible with credit cards. Unfair pricing practices took over in the bike industry once carbon bikes and parts became more reliable, which was only about 5 years ago. Before then, at my former employer which is a huge part of the industry, handled more structural and catastrophic failures of carbon stuff than you would care to know. I didn't buy into carbon until a couple years ago, and picked up an unbranded Dedacciai Nero Corsa F&F for $1300. There are still deals to be had if you're not obsessed with brand names.

 

[krebs303]

In 1999 my tri bike w/Hed 3 Wheels was $3400 USD . Frames ran $1200/1500. dura-ace $900. I have no interest in moving to carbon. My next bike will be a custom steel. I love the ride. I sure like the looks of the Pinnerello Prince. but for it would just be Bling. Some of my favorite bikes have been cobbled together from parts found in the trash. I can't drive by and not look. but I only take high class junk these days.
Prices now are amazing. I don't care for electric shifting and run mechanical discs on my MTB. Just easier to fix on the trail or road. Or I'm just getting old

 

[Ovidius]

I always find this sort of thing ridiculous. Are you somehow arguing that bike companies are making a ridiculous amount of profit? The way you are talking, you make it sound like Pinarello's margin on a Prince is 99.9%. I assure you, it is not.

Most Car Manufacturers are actually about to go bust, heh. But in normal times - there are hundreds of millions of car users worldwide. Their market is vast and diverse. There is the same amount of material in a Mclaren f1 than a ford Focus. Why does it cost more???

Its pretty obvious and I'm not going to explain it to you.

Why does a Pinarello Prince cost more? Have any of you tried to design and make a frame which you expect only to sell 5000 units max worldwide? Race Proven, top technology, top design, exceptional graphic design etcetcetc. The total cost of each Bike is massive, their Margin is reasonable and Pinarello make a reasonable and fair amount of profit for a small bike manufacturer.

It has Zipp Wheels? How many Zipp wheels are sold each year? But what about the design costs, wind tunnel costs, safety tests, manufacturing costs, material costs, marketing costs, mold costs... etcetc. Is Zipp the most profitable company in the Cycle industry... No. They make a reasonable amount of profit from a low volume, high quality, race proven, scientifically tested product. You don't get that from a Aksium.

The Bicycle world is innovative and technology moves fast. I think you would be hard pressed to find any other industry or sport for which technology has improved so substantially over the past 10 years. This innovation costs money and requires people to buy things at a premium. If it wasn't for people like me buying Carbon bikes in the past, would Dedeccia frames be available now??

Oh, and for all those people lost in the past. I do like my Steel MTB's. But no Steel Road bike compares to my 6kg Madone 6.9 pro in a 58cm. You cannot ultimately achieve the same ratio of stiffness to weight in any other material, whilst maintaining strenght and compliance where required. Anyone who things otherwise is really lost to nostalgia or misses the point because they cannot afford a $10k Road bike.

 

[ElChingon]

Progress people, and economics. Who still makes in income what they did when bikes were $800? Nobody that's who.

Custom Steel! Now those prices are outrageous! Which frame builder? I'd like to see if it will be under $3K (Frame/fork only by the way).

Don't like electronics you say? Do you still use a distributor in your car as well , no you don't, its all electronic including the fuel pump these days unless you drive a retro car.

I'd love to keep it simple using only DC power, Old Electric School

 

[krebs303]

only said I like to repair my bike on the road don't like being stranded.
electronics are great technology is fine. I love all the new bikes but they not for me. and a steel frame can be modest in price depending on construction.
whether or not I can afford one is not how I judge what I like. I buy what best suits me and my riding. and that is not always the best and most expensive.

 

[ElChingon]

You can buy a full carbon frame for $250! Cheaper than Steel! Check E-bay there's a few vendors selling them. Yes, from China, same place that makes the current cheap Steel frames as well (didn't say custom).

 

[krebs303]

I'd love to keep it simple using only DC power, Old Electric School

Tesla is turning over in his grave

 

[LugHugger]

Progress people, and economics. Who still makes in income what they did when bikes were $800? Nobody that's who.

Custom Steel! Now those prices are outrageous! Which frame builder? I'd like to see if it will be under $3K (Frame/fork only by the way).

Don't like electronics you say? Do you still use a distributor in your car as well , no you don't, its all electronic including the fuel pump these days unless you drive a retro car.

I'd love to keep it simple using only DC power, Old Electric School

Unfortunately, custom steel in the US has become boutique. Full Columbus Spirit tubeset retails for $225/£150. Yet, Sachs/White and the cronies in their fake *** 'look at us, we've been building forever club to justify our sky high prices' that they have just formed will sell you a frame for what? $3,000 minimum? come on, give me a break!

There are quality US frame builders offering steel at reasonable prices - certainly well under $3k ie IF, Ira Ryan ++. In the UK, I'm having a full Spirit f&f brazed for me now at £1,000/$1,500. The builder is happy with his margin and I'm happy with the materials and craftsmanship.

I'm afraid that the bike industry has bought into believing it's own hype. Take a look around guys, the world is changing. Y

 

[krebs303]

Zinn Cycles tig welded True Temper OX Platinum tubing. $1950 usd for F&F. He would be who I would use as he specializes in big and tall bikes. even makes 220mm length crank arms. But I saw others during the hand made bicycle show for $1200/1500.

 

[Bworking247]

I will stick to my custom steel "Cherry Bomb" in the Crits and climb on my Kuota KOM. Now need to see the carbon snap like a twig in the first crash.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

John Cherry makes nice freaking bikes! A friend of mine in Chicago also has a Cherry "Fat Boy". John is like the Steelman of the Midwest, supreme quality, and no advertising, or trade shows, just word of mouth. He sells purely based on reputation and respect. Really nice Bworking, I'm jealous.

 

[velodromer]

For about ten years, I have lusted after the Corima track frame. They are nearly impossible to find in the US, and with good reason. I called for a quote - mind you, they are custom made carbon and made for sprinting, an absolutely beautiful frameset. Maybe I was naive, but I was thinking in the four thousand dollar range.

The lady who quoted me the price was really nice. She told me it was $9,500 but if I wanted paint, it would be an additional $500. Yes, paint. This was a frameset only.

Maybe it had to do with poor exchange rates, or the fact that the French can't stand Americans (thanks Lance!), but I have a hard time believing that the price of the frame had much relation to the actually cost of construction, unless they fill the tubes with gold...or cocaine.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I wonder how T. Bos' million dollar bike rides? Apparantly not as good as gold, but hey, the Dutch love Americans. After all, we smoke up all their weed.

 

[MMMMMMMMM]

Frames aside, the prices of components are sky rocketing! I was checkin fizik's website, their top of the range saddle costs around 600 euros! Not to mention carbon wheelsets!!! I doubt that an average cyclist would feel the benefits of such high caliber wheels!

 

[elapid]

In regards to rising costs, a plug for Sidi. They reduced the retail costs of their products by 15% at the start of 2009 in reaction to the economic crisis.

 

[ukpaul]

Its simple, If you dont like the prices people are charging don't buy it.
people will always find an excuse to pay alot of money for what they think is worth it. A friend of mine spent $400 on a carbon fishing rod all it is is a long thin piece of carbon. But hey he likes fishing so fair play to him. I'm sure my wife can justify spending thousands on Designer clothes when normal clothes do the same job.

I but a brand new Pinarello with the latest Dura ace groupset every year. Do i get the best out of that equipment ?? No . But I dont care. I buy it because I can and because I want too.

 

[flyor64]

In regards to rising costs, a plug for Sidi. They reduced the retail costs of their products by 15% at the start of 2009 in reaction to the economic crisis.

+1 They may be the only one then...

I'd heard a rumor that the 15-30% increase in prices was due to the increase in raw material cost...which was due to the increase in oil. Of course I got this 3rd hand or more...

While I agree with a previous poster's points that a top-end race bike is low volume and cutting edge technology, and there is no do doubt that there is some non-recurring-engineering costs (and recurring costs for that matter)...I still don't think it warrants a 15-30% increase in price in one year.

For example...the 2008 Gary Fisher Superfly was $3400 MSRP (folks paying between 3000 and 4000) http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/29er/gary-fisher/superfly/PRD_417772_1548crx.aspx

2009 Gary Fisher Supefly MSRP is $4399 http://www.fisherbikes.com/bike/model/superfly

Roughly a 23% increase in price...the changes to bike, that I can tell, are minor at best.

 

[gotbeatup]

Consider how much money people pay for golf clubs.. and to use those golf clubs.. green fees, etc..

Although, my car is a 1990 Honda Civic that I picked up from Craigslist that cost me less than $1000.. but it sure hauls all my expensive bicycling stuff.

 

[gree0232]

I always find this sort of thing ridiculous. Are you somehow arguing that bike companies are making a ridiculous amount of profit? The way you are talking, you make it sound like Pinarello's margin on a Prince is 99.9%. I assure you, it is not.

Most Car Manufacturers are actually about to go bust, heh. But in normal times - there are hundreds of millions of car users worldwide. Their market is vast and diverse. There is the same amount of material in a Mclaren f1 than a ford Focus. Why does it cost more???

Oh, and for all those people lost in the past. I do like my Steel MTB's. But no Steel Road bike compares to my 6kg Madone 6.9 pro in a 58cm. You cannot ultimately achieve the same ratio of stiffness to weight in any other material, whilst maintaining strenght and compliance where required. Anyone who things otherwise is really lost to nostalgia or misses the point because they cannot afford a $10k Road bike.

Yes, I do think Pinarello has a fairly healthy profit margin based on the what it is selling. Let me give you some clear numbers to show why this is:

Colnago EPS = $6500
Pinarello Prince = $5500
Cervelo S3 = $4500
Ridley Dean = $3500

These are all high end bikes with mostly the same bells and whistles, but the two frames that show the most engineering attention to aerodynamics are at the lower end of the cost bracket. Interesting?

Now some other prices for you.

Rosetti SL1 = $1250 (Same bells and whistles -- which is why I bought it for my wife)
The OEM manufacturer for some other high level bikes is offloading frames on Ebay, the exact same frames as the one with the requisite stickers for $500 and it is a fair bet he's pocketing some profit on the deal.

Is the high end 'name brand' frame using carbon that costs $1,000 a pound and the OEM manufacturer using carbon that costs $100 a pound for ... the same bike? (Again, not saying its Pinarello, just a high end name).

So, does Pinarello have a huge profit margin? The answer appears fairly obvious.

As for 'carbon parts' the basics of shifting and cranks have been around for quite some time. Whereas the new hollow chain ring on the new Dura Ace crank appears creative, the addition of an 11th cog looks about as innovative as saying, "heh, there is enough space for another cog!", and certainly doesn't justify $3,000 mark for system that the cyclist still has to pedal. Why on Earth would I drop an additional grand on a product of equal quality to SRAM Red? For 'one more cog' in the back?

The ultimate case in point? Not even Tom Boonen, who has enough spare change to toss it right up his nose, wasn't using the full Super Record equipment when he won at Paris-Roubaix. (OK, slightly tongue in cheek, but it makes the point).

The market just cannot indefinitely support the ultra-expensive frames. It is no accident that many bike dealers have dropped Colnago almost as fast as the frames were dropped from the Pro-Tour ranks.

In the end, that guy dropping frames on Ebay for $500 a pop will have no problem slapping on his own label, my vote would be latin for 'Not quite so stupid', and sell for $1000 a piece. When he sells 100 frames for every one Colnago EPS sold, we'll see who is taking more money to the bank.

 

[Pietro]

I have to admit that I am amazed at how quickly, almost absurdly quickly, that prices for bikes and components have gone through the roof of late. A case in point:

A 2009 Hyundai Accent lists (no discounts mind you) for $12,745.

A new Pinarello Prince, with Super Record group and set of Zipp 404 hoops in a package discout from a reputable dealer costs $11,420.61.

I hope you were not expecting a power meter with that?

So, hundreds of pounds of steel, with a roof, four wheels, with an engine provided to help you get up those hills (and who among us wouldn't like one of those from time to time as we slog up a hill?) now only costs about a grand more than a few pounds of titanium and carbon fiber?

I have no problem paying for premium quality, and even paying a great deal more for the obvious quality differences between a department store huffy and a real racer, but this has just gotten absurd. Engineering and raw material costs for bikes cannot be equal to that of cars (even small cars). There is an obvious disconnect here when a additional cog and the loss of a few grams now costs $3,000 dollars (For which, if you use Ebay, you can get a fully equipped, with old Dura Ace or Campy, full carbon bike).

I think SRAM has it right, as it has a high end gruppo with amazing quality, and a new Rival and Force group that are both high quality and reasonably affordable.

I was also happy to see Colnago drop the price on its excellent, to put it mildly, C50, and then flabbergasted to see them charging $6,500 for the new EPS. I realize the prices are set by what the market will pay, but the downside is that only fleeting few will be able to dabble in their fantasy by riding the same bike as their hero up the same mountains or along the same routes.

Undoutedly, this was not a problem in the Merckx era.

I think you need to add Di2-$5000 for an 8 piece group(9 if you count the battery). Right, that's twice the cost of SuperRecord and 7900(prices for Campag just came down) and 'about' twice what Red costs.

Ya think Sram 'has it right'? You are buying a lever set for $550(+) that probably costs about 10% of that to make, same for crank, ders, everything else. How about a carbon frame probably costing in the $hundreds to make that sells for $thousands.

Don't forget Campagnolo and shimano have other groups that work well and aren't a $bazzillion.

There are conventional, well made, great riding frames, forks and bicycles out there that don't cost arm+leg. Just go to a decent bike shop that isn't awash with plastic and talk to them.

 

[Pietro]

Progress people, and economics. Who still makes in income what they did when bikes were $800? Nobody that's who.

Custom Steel! Now those prices are outrageous! Which frame builder? I'd like to see if it will be under $3K (Frame/fork only by the way).

Don't like electronics you say? Do you still use a distributor in your car as well , no you don't, its all electronic including the fuel pump these days unless you drive a retro car.

I'd love to keep it simple using only DC power, Old Electric School

http://www.waterfordbikes.com

Custom -14 series, complete custom stem to stern is $1400. Add a fork they make for $325-$1725 on my calculator.