Headset Question

[elapid]

As some of you may recall, I purchased a Colnago Master frame and fork recently. My local bike shop was going to build the bike while I was away recently, but they advised that the steerer tube was too short to be able to insert a headset. They tried a Campy Record headset with a stacking height of 36.5mm.

The seller of the bike said that the frame and fork was a set and that a headset was dismantled from the frame. The seller has recommended a Tange headset which has a stacking height of 35.5mm. He has offered to sell me one for 30 euros.

What are your thoughts? Do you think the Tange headset will work? Would you suggest another headset? Any other ideas?

The images are not great, but this is the clearance of the steerer tube:

 

[ElChingon]

So the current headset is no good?

If so then why not another Colnago Headset? Should be exactly the same.

Also, its been some time since I've had to have a non integrated headset installed but I don't see why they can't machine the headset so it fits.

 

[elapid]

So the current headset is no good?

If so then why not another Colnago Headset? Should be exactly the same.

Also, its been some time since I've had to have a non integrated headset installed but I don't see why they can't machine the headset so it fits.

The seller didn't provide the headset, just the frame and fork. He also does not know the make of the original headset. He bought the frame and fork from someone who had already removed the headset.

As far as this kind of thing goes, I am a juvie so pretend I know nothing (not hard because I don't!). What does it take to machine a headset?

 

[ElChingon]

Well from the pictures you are providing the headset is installed

I'm not sure about the machining now as I don't get the exact problem now.

If this picture is up to date, the headset is installed all you need is the stem (Quill Stem) and bars and you're ready to go. Or are you leaving something out?

 

[elapid]

Well from the pictures you are providing the headset is installed

I'm not sure about the machining now as I don't get the exact problem now.

If this picture is up to date, the headset is installed all you need is the stem (Quill Stem) and bars and you're ready to go. Or are you leaving something out?

The images were taken yesterday after I picked up the frame from my LBS, so they are current. I feel pretty stupid because I am reporting what my LBS and seller have told me, and they know much more about me with this kind of thing! Maybe my LBS was not trying to use a quill stem? Would this make sense?

 

[ElChingon]

Well I think you need to go back or call and fine out exactly what you need and why.

I can guess that maybe they want to install a new headset if the current one is bad? I don't see why new bearings wouldn't be enough if so, unless its cracked on the other side?

Quill stems are rarer these days as in harder to find, not impossible.

Need more info and if they are not trying to use a quill stem then either they are installing an adapter which will convert it to a non quill

Your frame is a conventional threaded headset and these days most bikes are "Integrated- Angular Contact System" or just Integrated Headset (laymans terms):

You should review this link: http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/headset-standards#is

This has a picture of a Quill Stem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headset_(bicycle_part)

 

[fatsprintking]

It looks to me like you have a fork that is different from what was orignally matched to the frame. The steerer tube is too short. I would say that at some point someone has changed the fork and even though it looked the right size, it was actually from a frame size smaller.

You only need to be able to get the lock nut on enough that you can effectively lock the bottom nut, but you look like you are a few mm short even for that. By rights you shoud have a spacer between your bottom and top nuts, but it will still work if you can thread the top nut directly over the bottom. You might need to go into a bike shop that carries headsets and see if you can find something which has a shorter stack height than what you currently have so you can get get a little more exposed thread on the steerer for the top nut.

Your other option would be to go for a one inch threadless fork. Something like a wound up would suit the colnago well.

 

[Fiemme]

The images were taken yesterday after I picked up the frame from my LBS, so they are current. I feel pretty stupid because I am reporting what my LBS and seller have told me, and they know much more about me with this kind of thing! Maybe my LBS was not trying to use a quill stem? Would this make sense?

Looking at the images all you need is enough steerer tube to fit the locking nut. About 4-6mm of steerer tube protuding from the top of the bearing cover will be ideal. If the campag headset has a stack height of 36.5mm you will need to find a headset with a stack height of 30-32mm. This will be hard to find.
If your LBS has the know how, you could get them to perform the following operation. Using a Headset Cutting Tool remove 1.5mm of metal off the top and the bottom of the Head tube of the frame. Then using a Fork Crown Cutting Tool remove 1.5mm off the Crown of the fork. This will give you an extra 4.5mm of steerer to attach the locking nut. But keep in mind you will need to be careful as to know how much material is available to ream off and if you can ream it off. You also need to make sure that who ever is performing this operation knows exactly what they are doing as you could cause enough damage to render a head tube replacement.
Someone that has experience with Frame Building would be a huge advantage.

 

[avanti]

.....................
Quill stems are rarer these days as in harder to find, not impossible.
.............

There are are often quill stems available on ebay.

There are also adapter quill stems that allow you to use a threadless stem such as this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tranz-X-Ste...902?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53eddfbde6.

Looking at your photo I wonder if part of the headset is integral with the frame lug? Bianchi used this technique many years ago and was hard to find replacement parts.

 

[ElChingon]

If your LBS has the know how, you could get them to perform the following operation. Using a Headset Cutting Tool remove 1.5mm of metal off the top and the bottom of the Head tube of the frame. Then using a Fork Crown Cutting Tool remove 1.5mm off the Crown of the fork. This will give you an extra 4.5mm of steerer to attach the locking nut. But keep in mind you will need to be careful as to know how much material is available to ream off and if you can ream it off. You also need to make sure that who ever is performing this operation knows exactly what they are doing as you could cause enough damage to render a head tube replacement.
Someone that has experience with Frame Building would be a huge advantage.

That's what I was getting at with the machining bit but had my terminology wrong, its been a while since I've had to do any headset cutting and what not. So you still have some options elapid.

 

[fatsprintking]

I have another option for you. Take the bottom nut section to someone that can mill a couple of mm off the top. This should then give you enough thread to be able to get your top nut on.

You only need it to be thick enough that you can fit a headset spanner under the lock nut. A good quality headset spanner is already quite thin, but you could use a sander to get one even thinner.

With a ****ty old headset, you could just have a go at sanding down the bottom nut! The slight ridge that your headset has would come off pretty easy. An engineering shop could sort it in about 5 min, or you could have a crack for about 10 seconds with a rotary sander.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

So the current headset is no good?

If so then why not another Colnago Headset? Should be exactly the same.

My thought too. I think I'd take the make/model of the bike (Colnago/model), do a search for headsets of that model and see what you come up with. Maybe even call a Colnago distributor to see if they can offer some help. The idea being try to find an original headset or replica that would work. If you can get the specs from a search of the make/model then maybe you can also find a replica (if not original) that has the same headset specs of what you need. It will probably take a lot of time to do an exhaustive search, so you might have to be really patient. From the looks of that bike in the images you provided, it looks like a bike worth trying to restore to original.

Note: I don't know about Italian headsets, but some Italian BB's use different specs than what is used in other countries. So keep that in mind as the same may be true of headsets. Hopefully that is not the case though.

Cheers & Good luck!

Edit - link to some Tange headsets of different stack heights:
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/headsets/headsets-1-inch-threaded-iso.html

 

[Fiemme]

I have another option for you. Take the bottom nut section to someone that can mill a couple of mm off the top. This should then give you enough thread to be able to get your top nut on.

You only need it to be thick enough that you can fit a headset spanner under the lock nut. A good quality headset spanner is already quite thin, but you could use a sander to get one even thinner.

With a ****ty old headset, you could just have a go at sanding down the bottom nut! The slight ridge that your headset has would come off pretty easy. An engineering shop could sort it in about 5 min, or you could have a crack for about 10 seconds with a rotary sander.

This would be advisable if the head set was an old steel headset. The campag headset installed is aluminium. Doing this will reduce the amount of threads available on the lock nut and will be prone to stripping when tightening on to a steel steerer.

 

[elapid]

My thought too. I think I'd take the make/model of the bike (Colnago/model), do a search for headsets of that model and see what you come up with. Maybe even call a Colnago distributor to see if they can offer some help. The idea being try to find an original headset or replica that would work. If you can get the specs from a search of the make/model then maybe you can also find a replica (if not original) that has the same headset specs of what you need. It will probably take a lot of time to do an exhaustive search, so you might have to be really patient. From the looks of that bike in the images you provided, it looks like a bike worth trying to restore to original.

Note: I don't know about Italian headsets, but some Italian BB's use different specs than what is used in other countries. So keep that in mind as the same may be true of headsets. Hopefully that is not the case though.

Cheers & Good luck!

Edit - link to some Tange headsets of different stack heights:
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/headsets/headsets-1-inch-threaded-iso.html

Thanks to everyone for your helpful replies. I have contacted Colnago and a couple of other self-proclaimed Colnago experts for their recommendations as suggested.

Thanks on3m@n@rmy for your link on the Tange headsets as well. Perhaps the Tange headset with a 31.2mm stack height would work?

Thanks again.

 

[Master50]

My thought too. I think I'd take the make/model of the bike (Colnago/model), do a search for headsets of that model and see what you come up with. Maybe even call a Colnago distributor to see if they can offer some help. The idea being try to find an original headset or replica that would work. If you can get the specs from a search of the make/model then maybe you can also find a replica (if not original) that has the same headset specs of what you need. It will probably take a lot of time to do an exhaustive search, so you might have to be really patient. From the looks of that bike in the images you provided, it looks like a bike worth trying to restore to original.

Note: I don't know about Italian headsets, but some Italian BB's use different specs than what is used in other countries. So keep that in mind as the same may be true of headsets. Hopefully that is not the case though.

Cheers & Good luck!

Edit - link to some Tange headsets of different stack heights:
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/headsets/headsets-1-inch-threaded-iso.html

This is a useless exercise. The steerer tube on fork is cut too short for the bike. It came much longer from the factory and has nothing to do with frame sizes. IE the steerer tube on the original fork from Colnago comes long enough for their biggest frame or maybe is made with 2 or 3 different lengths like short medium and long steerers. It is the guy who originally cut the fork or took a fork from a smaller frame that was already cut.
Your notion that forks come from the factory already matched to a frame and headset is erroneous. IE you cannot look at a 56 cm frame and order a cut fork for it. It will come longer than you need as the same fork will accommodate a large range of frame sizes and headsets. Unless they are installed in the factory the frame and fork come as separate items and the fork steerer is cut to the end length you need after the headset is installed. This fork was cut too short to work with a standard Campagnolo headset on that frame. You can also find used steel forks for not that much cash. It is also possible to change to a newer style headset with a new fork. Colnago does have a few good carbon forks to chose from too. I uses a Carbon fork on my master with great result and improved comfort. It also allows for greater stem choices too as quill stems can be harder to find as well as limit handlebar choices to traditional bends as most Quills still available don't have removable faceplates so the stem won't accommodate very tight bends in the bars.

I really would not shave the fork crown down or shorten the head tube before I would replace the too short fork. Start by looking for a shorter stack height first. Consider the head tube shave but it looks like you need 3 to 5 mm to get a nut on the top and a very thin washer between.

Good luck

 

[Bustedknuckle]

As some of you may recall, I purchased a Colnago Master frame and fork recently. My local bike shop was going to build the bike while I was away recently, but they advised that the steerer tube was too short to be able to insert a headset. They tried a Campy Record headset with a stacking height of 36.5mm.

The seller of the bike said that the frame and fork was a set and that a headset was dismantled from the frame. The seller has recommended a Tange headset which has a stacking height of 35.5mm. He has offered to sell me one for 30 euros.

What are your thoughts? Do you think the Tange headset will work? Would you suggest another headset? Any other ideas?

The images are not great, but this is the clearance of the steerer tube:

Make sure the bearings are correct, top and bottom(larger ones go on the bottom 3/16, 5/32 on top) and make sure the ones on top are not upside down.