How dirty is SaxoBank-Tinkoff?

[LaFlorecita]

That's not racism.

rac·ism (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Edit:

Alberto is spanish --> all his results are the result of doping

= prejudice based on race (nationality in this case actually)

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Go ahead and backtrack. We both know what you were implying.

If calling Spanish climbers "Spanish climbers" is racist, this really is your problem. And yours alone.

Secondly, it is a FACT that the Spanish riders benefit from the most documented lax anti-doping efforts in the peloton. Their riders return from bans to documented doping teams and doping DSs. They are also unrepentant of their "past", protected politically and accepted back into that culture for business as usual.

Are you really saying that everything is equal compared to the French or the Germans? Ever wonder why Tony Martin with that amazing power never got his mountain wings?

So amazing power aka tt'er can't have mountain wings eh!

 

[Big Doopie]

No you were implying almost all Spanish results are the result of doping and apparently that is where your hate towards Alberto comes from. I don't care if you hate Alberto but implying that because he's spanish he got all his results because of doping is hard to accept for me and frankly sounds like racism to me.

There you go again.

BAN HER!

Seriously, I am tired of her name-calling in response to my posting documented FACTS.

 

[LaFlorecita]

There you go again.

BAN HER!

Seriously, I am tired of her name-calling in response to my posting documented FACTS.

I am tired of you acting like a child. Let the mods decide what is bannable and what isn't.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I tried to explain it multiple times. It seems like you don't want to get it.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

No you were implying almost all Spanish results are the result of doping and apparently that is where your hate towards Alberto comes from. I don't care if you hate Alberto but implying that because he's spanish he got all his results because of doping is hard to accept for me and frankly sounds like racism to me.

Not joining the discussion but it is kinda fair to say a lot/most of Spanish cycling results since lets say 1988/1989/1990/1991 were a little bit aided. Either in teams or individually.

Just saying.

Game on.

Hope I am not a racist now.

 

[Publicus]

It's laziness not racism, though stereotyping usually goes hand in hand with racist comments.Stop painting with such a broad brush and you won't run afoul of anyone's sensitivities. Just my $0.02

 

[Big Doopie]

I am tired of you acting like a child. Let the mods decide what is bannable and what isn't.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I tried to explain it multiple times. It seems like you don't want to get it.

FACT: the Spanish courts "inexplicably" ordered the destruction of hundreds of incriminating blood bags (most likely containing some from Clentadoppucci and that would result in a lifetime ban)

FACT: the French senate is doing an investigation into doping, retro testing the 1998 samples and publishing the positives -- first and foremost amongst them a French Champion who even had a mountain named after him.

DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE!?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Not joining the discussion but it is kinda fair to say a lot/most of Spanish cycling results since lets say 1988/1989/1990/1991 were a little bit aided. Either in teams or individually.

Just saying.

Game on.

Hope I am not a racist now.

I completely agree.

It's laziness not racism, though stereotyping usually goes hand in hand with racist comments.Stop painting with such a broad brush and you won't run afoul of anyone's sensitivities. Just my $0.02

This basically. Stereotyping based on race is equal to prejudice based on race in most cases.

BTW I know Spanish officially isn't a "race"

 

[LaFlorecita]

FACT: the Spanish courts "inexplicably" ordered the destruction of hundreds of incriminating blood bags (most likely containing some from Clentadoppucci and that would result in a lifetime ban)

FACT: the French senate is doing an investigation into doping, retro testing the 1998 samples and publishing the positives -- first and foremost amongst them a French Champion who even had a mountain named after him.

DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE!?

Can you not stop writing in caps?

 

[Big Doopie]

Can you not stop writing in caps?

Perhaps when you stop calling me a racist for pointing out documented fact.

Btw - Nice way of deflecting without answering the documented facts I wrote in my post. I believe they summarize and justify my position fully while putting the lie to your false equivalency.

And I still call for you to be BANNED.

And btw - Ocana is my second most favorite rider of all time. I believe he was more naturally talented than Merckx. Go figure, right?

What escapes you in your imaginary world of false equivalency is that I am not anti-Spanish but anti-doping. And you would know this if you had followed my posts across several cycling websites and my activity against uspostal.

 

[Eshnar]

FACT: the Spanish courts "inexplicably" ordered the destruction of hundreds of incriminating blood bags (most likely containing some from Clentadoppucci and that would result in a lifetime ban)

FACT: the French senate is doing an investigation into doping, retro testing the 1998 samples and publishing the positives -- first and foremost amongst them a French Champion who even had a mountain named after him.

DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE!?

considering the fact that the French investigation is basically useless (aside for stating the obvious) because there's no sample B, and even if it were there would be only a couple of riders still in activity to ban, the effectiveness of both policies are close to none, so there's not much difference

PS: you better stop asking for bans or we might take your suggestion into consideration *threatening look*

 

[zastomito]

Yes, but doesn't mean the Spaniards are doping harder or better than the rest of the bunch. It certainly doesn't come in to play when they are racing in Italy and France or any other country other than Spain. And the fact that France is willing to pursue Jalabert is commendable but hardly evidence of ZTP considering that case in point happened 15 years ago. Maybe Spaniards will bring Indurain eventually and then you will have to apologize to LF

 

[Big Doopie]

considering the fact that the French investigation is basically useless (aside for stating the obvious) because there's no sample B, and even if it were there would be only a couple of riders still in activity to ban, the effectiveness of both policies are close to none, so there's not much difference

PS: you better stop asking for bans or we might take your suggestion into consideration *threatening look*

Frankly go the F ahead. I dont give a flying f. Seriously, that you have allowed this to go on is unpardonable.

Reeks of the dead daily peloton forums.

I'll take myself out in fact.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Perhaps when you stop calling me a racist for pointing out documented fact.

Btw - Nice way of deflecting without answering the documented facts I wrote in my post. I believe they summarize and justify my position fully while putting the lie to your false equivalency.

And I still call for you to be BANNED.

And btw - Ocana is my second most favorite rider of all time. I believe he was more naturally talented than Merckx. Go figure, right?

What escapes you in your imaginary world of false equivalency is that I am not anti-Spanish but anti-doping. And you would know this if you had followed my posts across several cycling websites and my activity against uspostal.

Big Doopie calm down. It wasn't my intention to call you a racist and I am sorry you feel insulted.

 

[Eshnar]

Frankly go the F ahead. I dont give a flying f. Seriously, that you have allowed this to go on is unpardonable.

Reeks of the dead daily peloton forums.

I'll take myself out in fact.

In Spain doping is very easy. FACT. Not only Spanish climbers can exploit the situation. The OP had a long list of non Spanish customers, right? (FACT)
So your words were a little distasteful, frankly. That said, only a little (in fact we didn't say anything). Same for La Flo, who just pointed that out (but didn't call you to be banned, which you did, just to make sure to be on the wrong side).
This discussion is really pointless, but if you're gonna make such a big deal of it go on.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

i read the secret race last 2 days. Hard to believe Saxo is racing clean now, actually, hard to believe anyone is really racing clean now.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

At the end of the day, "Big Doopie" is right. While there were (maybe still are) many foreigners who use/used the advantage of non existing anti-doping in spain, those athletes were punished at home (see Armstrong, finally; Ullrich, for example).
In spain those basterds are protected up today. It´s gotten so ugly that in the end of Armstrong only AC, Epo-Indurain, SSanchez, JRod, and other spaniards defended him....

 

[Eshnar]

At the end of the day, "Big Doopie" is right. While there were (maybe still are) many foreigners who use/used the advantage of non existing anti-doping in spain, those athletes were punished at home (see Armstrong, finally; Ullrich, for example).
In spain those basterds are protected up today. It´s gotten so ugly that in the end of Armstrong only AC, Epo-Indurain, SSanchez, JRod, and other spaniards defended him....

they're protected, sure, but they're not the only dopers.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

FACT: the Spanish courts "inexplicably" ordered the destruction of hundreds of incriminating blood bags (most likely containing some from Clentadoppucci and that would result in a lifetime ban)

Sorry not a FACT.... that the court "inexplicably" ordered the destruction of the blood-bags.

The judge was APPLYING THE RELEVANT LAWS OF THE LAND, AS OF THE TIME WHEN THE ALLEGED OFFENCE OCCURRED.
There is also the matter of the rights of the OWNERS of the blood within the bags to their privacy.

It is simple, THE OWNERS of the blood-bags were NOT on trial, or accused of any offence in the court, therefore under Spanish and EU Privacy laws, the contents CANNOT be used in any other way than as evidence for the OFFENCE THAT WAS ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN COMMITTED.

Once that legal process has been concluded, including any rights of appeal, the evidence will be destroyed.

Sorry it does not fit with your hatred of Spanish riders and whoever else, but suck it up.

 

[Balabar]

I never heard of any Columbian climbers

Have you not heard of Ryder Hesjedal? He is British Columbian.

 

[The Hitch]

Yes. Yes. And yes again.

You accuse Nibali of doping ad nauseum yet demand "proof" for the other riders?

 

[roundabout]

Sorry not a FACT.... that the court "inexplicably" ordered the destruction of the blood-bags.

The judge was APPLYING THE RELEVANT LAWS OF THE LAND, AS OF THE TIME WHEN THE ALLEGED OFFENCE OCCURRED.
There is also the matter of the rights of the OWNERS of the blood within the bags to their privacy.

It is simple, THE OWNERS of the blood-bags were NOT on trial, or accused of any offence in the court, therefore under Spanish and EU Privacy laws, the contents CANNOT be used in any other way than as evidence for the OFFENCE THAT WAS ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN COMMITTED.

Once that legal process has been concluded, including any rights of appeal, the evidence will be destroyed.

Sorry it does not fit with your hatred of Spanish riders and whoever else, but suck it up.

What exactly is a EU privacy law that doesn't seem to work in Italy and Germany (or Switzerland)?

Now as the saying goes, don't hate the players, but having the playing field skewed in their favor (inadvertently or not) is a legitimate reason to question the Spanish.

Not to mention the frankly *** previous law about nighttime testing being illegal. Laws of the land, right?

 

[Le Baroudeur]

FACT: Saxo-Tinkoff is not based in Spain.

FACT: When Saxo-Tinkoff signed it's iberian contingent they were unaware of impending sanctions

FACT: Alberto Contador was sacked when charges were brought against him.

FACT: Alberto Contador only rides for the team now because CAS ruled he was guilty of Involuntary ingestion of a contaminated supplement.

FACT: both Jörge Jaksche and Tyler Hamilton have lied about their doping and changed their stories numerous times.

FACT: In blind studies France ranked in the top 3 nations for doping in sport.

FACT: The USA participated in state sponsored and organised doping during the 1980's and beyond.

FACT: Key participants in the East German state sponsored doping system currently work with state sponsored British athletes, including cross discipline discussions and planning with British Cycling and the head of Team Sky.

FACT: Saxo Tinkoff responded to harsh criticism from the then main exponents of the anti doping community by unconditionally allowing the critics to implement an unrestricted and independent testing system of the critics own design upon the team.

FACT: The team welcomes and is cooperating with any and all investigations.

FACT: Big Dope has been trolling the RR section with doping innuendo toward a particular rider set all week and following a warning decides to troll this section instead with blatant BS in the best possible flame baiting and trolling style maintaing maximum annoyance towards community members and continued attention.

FACT: Enough is Enough. No quantity or quality of ****ing contests will either solve or improve the state of cycling, doping being only one of many issues to compromise fairness and effect sporting results. Defamation and Media bias being the latest.

Having read the comments section of the most recent CN articles regarding the team, I'm frankly appalled by the quantity of misinformed and factually inaccurate FUD being thrown around by the cycling community. There is prejudice and self serving bias everywhere, none of which reflects either the reality of the sport or furthers the sports image in a truthful or positive way. It's embarrassing to be a fellow fan at the moment, especially when politics appears to be the major cause and motivator for both the issues and the current misinformation.

 

[cineteq]

Have you not heard of Ryder Hesjedal? He is British Columbian.

I need to save this +1

 

[GreasyMonkey]

What exactly is a EU privacy law that doesn't seem to work in Italy and Germany (or Switzerland)?

If the same situation occurred in any EU country where the blood (or any sample of their being i.e. tissue, DNA, etc) of a party not subject to criminal sanction is provided as evidence in a court of law, it can ONLY be used for evidence for that particular instance in the charges before the court, not be sampled, passed around amongst other parties, etc - then it must either be returned to the rightful owner or destroyed.

If you can provide me a documented account of such an instance, I would love to see it, but I will not hold my breath.

EU laws are not applicable in Switzerland, either, so don't send that dog a'hunting.