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How do I recruit my glutes more?

Jul 28, 2009
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I know the gluteals are enormous powerful muscles but during intervals, climbing and TT's I feel the burn in my quads almost entirely. After a very hard session that night when I go to sleep it's my lower thighs that are literally hot to the touch.

How do I stop being so quad dominated and start recruiting those big old glutes to help generate my power?
 
Jun 23, 2009
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If the old and excellent CN fitness archive was easy to find, I bet you could find your answer. My very limited knowledge, would suggest your seat or cleats are too far forward.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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cromagnon said:
I know the gluteals are enormous powerful muscles but during intervals, climbing and TT's I feel the burn in my quads almost entirely. After a very hard session that night when I go to sleep it's my lower thighs that are literally hot to the touch.

How do I stop being so quad dominated and start recruiting those big old glutes to help generate my power?

Ok, so I'll start out by saying that I'm not a doctor or biomechanicist or anything like that. The following comments are solely from my own experiences with also trying to ride more efficiently.

I'll start by saying that from what you describe, your seat is too far forward. I had similar problems with overdone quads when I spent a season racing duathlons. I started thinking that something was wrong when my performances went off and I started getting quad burn mid way through the season. The only thing that had changed was that my position was changed to reflect the common wisdom on tri bike set up - ie., pull the seat forward. I put it back to where I liked it for road riding and - despite keeping running and the like - found that my speed increased no end and the pain disappeared.

So, check that your seat is set up so that your knee sits just behind the pedal spindle when the pedal is at the 3 o'clock position. If you have a long femur relative to your leg length (as I do) you'll find that modern bikes with 74 degree seat angles are a real pain and you need a good setback seat post. I use the Look Ergopost - it gives heaps of setback - but it's hugely pricey ...

While you're at it, just give your whole position a check over - seat height (equal to 0.883 times your inseam), ball of foot over pedal axle or just in front of pedal axle being the biggies.

Next thing is - how tight are your muscles? I find that my hill strength drops off and my legs start to burn when my muscles are overly tight. I'm thinking especially of glutes, piriformis, ilio-psoas as these are often overlooked and can really tighten up with biking. Obviously, also check out the old standards like the ham and quad groups, plus the tensor fascia latae (not sure on spelling) and the aductors/gracilis (the inside of the thigh). If you're not sure how to stretch/test for tightness, then grab the book "Stretching" by Bob and Jean Anderson. It is still the authority on stretching (my partner's a massage therapist and uses it heaps with her clients).

If your muscles are tight, then put in a stretching regime to your program - or add a yoga class or two per week. I'd also strongly recommend that you get some massages if you are tight - you'll have built up a tightness over a period of time and massage will help bring it out quickly. But be ready for your performance to drop off temporarily while your muscles adjust to working "properly" while they're getting used to being freed up.

My guess is that the combination of those two things will give you at least 75% of your answer ...

Ok, so those are the easy things ... Beyond this, your next step is to just work on building up your glute strength. Most cyclists are relatively weak in the rear leg muscles - not an absolute weakness, more a reflection of huge quad dominance. So, it's a combination of building strength and correcting the imbalances.

My recommendation would be to do that by using a range of activities. Weight training is an obvious one - but my experience says only early in the season or the off-season as it can detract from your riding. Also, weight training strengthens the muscles but doesn't recruit/use them in the same way that riding does, so you'll be building strength but not bike specific strength.

Get yourself an exercise ball and a wobble board and practise doing exercises on them. Don't be fooled by the fact that they seem "easy" or aren't using "real weights". Get a good series of exercises on each of them and you'll know about it - believe me!!!

Then do some cross training. I noticed a huge improvement in my seated climbing (which recruits glutes really heavily) after a winter of XC skiing (skate skiing), skating and a spring of trail running. All of those sports make more use of all of the rear leg muscles than bikers are used to using, so make a great compliment to biking. But - and it's a big but (no pun intended after the last sentence) - you need to concentrate on using "proper form" for the sport. In other words, don't run or ski off your quads as most bikers do. It'll take some time, but you'll find a huge improvement in your rear leg muscle strength.

Also concentrate on sitting and spinning up hills. Like I said, this recruits the glutes more than most riding, so is a good way to build some more strength.

Do remember that this strength building will take some time. You haven't built your current muscle state over-night, so it wont change over-night either. Keep that in mind ... most people expect instant changes and get disappointed both when their performance initially decreases and then when they don't reach their "ideal state" instantly ...

Anything beyond that is beyond my experience, so I'll leave any more comments to experts who can talk about bio-mechanics and the really specific vagueries of bike set up.

Hope that's of some help to you ... :)
 
Jun 9, 2009
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Glutes

The simplest way to be sure you are recruiting your glutes properly is to have a professional bike fit done.

Once the proper fit is established, arch your lower back slightly while riding as if you are trying to stick your rump in the air while staying on the saddle. Lower your hands to the drops and feel yourself rolling your pelvis slightly forward on the saddle.

You will feel a little more pressure on the perineum (between your wedding tackle and back-door) and less pressure on your ischeal tuberosities (sit bones).

This should do the trick.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Thanks for the post I will deffo do as you suggest regarding the seat. Just one question the inseam x 0.833 is to equal the distance from seat to bottom bracket?

And knee just behing spindle at 3 o'clock given a forward cleat position? I was considering moving the cleats back as far as they will go as I read somewhere this seems to bring the glutes more into the motion?

Ok I have been intuitively "stick my backside out" as you describe, then trying the opposite "tail between the legs" (on the sitbones) method. So it's the first one not the second - I did notice I got pretty beaten up in new places by the saddle by using the "stick backside out" method.

Anyone notice Luis Leon Sanchez uses the "tail between the legs" method he is on his sitbones with a seriously curved lower back.
 
Jun 23, 2009
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I recently got a professional fit and have been very happy with the results. It is suprising how balanced the muscle tiredness is now compared to before, with no one muscle group standing out.

I used to have a classic flat back position but also had knee pain. The fitter raised my bars significantly and made a few other tweeks, and I now feel much better. I would strongly recommend a fit as it is almost impossible to do by yourself.

When you watch the pros, it is amazing how fluid they look.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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cromagnon said:
Thanks for the post I will deffo do as you suggest regarding the seat. Just one question the inseam x 0.833 is to equal the distance from seat to bottom bracket?

And knee just behing spindle at 3 o'clock given a forward cleat position? I was considering moving the cleats back as far as they will go as I read somewhere this seems to bring the glutes more into the motion?

Ok I have been intuitively "stick my backside out" as you describe, then trying the opposite "tail between the legs" (on the sitbones) method. So it's the first one not the second - I did notice I got pretty beaten up in new places by the saddle by using the "stick backside out" method.

Anyone notice Luis Leon Sanchez uses the "tail between the legs" method he is on his sitbones with a seriously curved lower back.

Yeah, the measurement on seat height is from centre of bottom bracket to the top of the middle of the saddle where you'd be sitting - along the line of the seat tube.

Also, that multiplier is 0.883 - I'm guessing you just made a typo, but thought would say in case you measured and put yourself too low.

As for the forward-back position - completely independent of the cleat position. You are trying to get your thigh and knee in the right spot, not the cleat. The adjustability on the saddle is more than on the shoe, so that's a bigger one to work off.

That said, I would be loathe to do extreme things with the cleat position. I know what a few people say about a long way forward or back, but it doesn't ring true. I think it's a somewhat techy solution to a problem that is better addressed by working on muscle strength, flexibility and imbalances. (I have similar views about running shoes - based on my own experience in strengthening my rear leg muscles and glutes which turned me from using pronation control shoes to neutral shoes ... I think that the same principle applies to bikes ...)

Be careful copying other rider's positions - they may work for them but not for you. And don't necessarily think that all pros have good positions - the ultimate case in point being Sean Kelly who always looked like he was on a bike two sizes too small. But hey, it obviously worked well for him, ay?!

Just one thing with whatever position you go for - don't push it. You need to be in a position that is comfortable for you. So, your version of the "bum stuck out" may be more or less extreme than some or likewise your version of "tail under" may have your "tail" slightly more stuck out ... Your body knows where it wants to go - so don't force it and let it adjust ...
 
Jul 28, 2009
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I would steer clear of weights my strength levels and muscle mass are in the high percentiles, I've not lifted since Rugby days but can still lift ridiculous weights, been like that since I was about 15. Have been called a freak more than once. I just want to get my huge sprinters' backside to do some of the work.

Stretch every day that's an old habit from sport as a junior, I am pretty supple and agile not muscle bound or tight at all. Have done some promising 10 mile tt's am ok as long as they're flat but am losing weight gradually. I will look like a human cricket once my upper body bulk gradually melts away.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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cromagnon said:
I would steer clear of weights my strength levels and muscle mass are in the high percentiles, I've not lifted since Rugby days but can still lift ridiculous weights, been like that since I was about 15. Have been called a freak more than once. I just want to get my huge sprinters' backside to do some of the work.

Stretch every day that's an old habit from sport as a junior, I am pretty supple and agile not muscle bound or tight at all. Have done some promising 10 mile tt's am ok as long as they're flat but am losing weight gradually. I will look like a human cricket once my upper body bulk gradually melts away.

Your last sentence kinda sounds to me like you're new to the sport - how long have you been riding for?

Good that you stretch daily - but will still lay a bet that you're tighter than you think you are. Coming from NZ I've known heaps of rugby players, and there are very few who are truly supple - and even fewer who have the right combination of suppleness and a body composition suited for cycling (which is more about suppleness and flexibility than a power sport like rugby - regardless of whether you were a forward or a back).

If you're getting really serious about things and really want to get this sorted, you're probably going to really quickly exhaust what anyone can give you on line (even the former "medical" panelists on the old CN site). I'd suggest hook up with someone from the local club or someone that the local club can recommend who does some coaching and get them to work with you on all of the things that various people have discussed in this thread ...
 
Jul 27, 2009
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mountaindew said:
Where's Steve Hogg when you need him!
+1
It would be good to take a look here and here for Steve Hogg's thoughts on positioning.

Another this to keep in mind is that any/all "fit calculators" just get you in the neighborhood of proper fit. You still need to go out and ride to determine how the bike needs to be tweaked to fit you.

Dave
 
Jul 28, 2009
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OK I have been experimenting and I am now slightly further forward and slightly lower down. I know it's contrary to a lot of the advice above but that's from riding various sessions on the turbo and on the road.

I clocked 24:19 this very morning in a 10 mile TT, fastest so far and at no point did anything burn horrendously (just my throat). It was pretty windy too, normal helmet and bike but using aero bars. I also lowered my cadence.

My HR peaked at 184 during that TT, I've hit 195 several times just on training rides and I blame the high-candence dogma. If I become more efficient at higher cadence in the next few years then so be it. Right now I feel better able to engage my relatively large lower body musculature in a slower more powerful stroke. Same with the hams, I felt I was "twanging" them like guitar strings trying to pull up on the pedals with a high cadence and didn;t carry it on for long, but these last few week it's felt like I'm putting steady power more of the way round and getting a nice rhythm going. Still keep regularly forgetting to recruit them though, takes steady concentration.

Unfortunately my patella is slighty sore just to the right of centre underneath, it's not painful but it's totally unacceptable as that will only get worse. Interesting that I did not get the soreness on the rides in the week just after the TT today, so I bet either the aero bar position or maximal efforts cause a slight "knock-knee" effect to appear in the stroke of the right leg.

Will have to see if it shows in a video of the next turbo session then see what can be done. Yes I could pay someone a few grand to (maybe) solve the problem (hopefully without causing a whole load of others) but I enjoy experimentation through small methodical changes. That is what a hobby is all about for me.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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cromagnon said:
Unfortunately my patella is slighty sore just to the right of centre underneath, it's not painful but it's totally unacceptable as that will only get worse. Interesting that I did not get the soreness on the rides in the week just after the TT today, so I bet either the aero bar position or maximal efforts cause a slight "knock-knee" effect to appear in the stroke of the right leg.
It's most likely a combination of lowering the saddle and over-gearing - which I am interpreting from your phrase "slowing your cadence". Be bloody careful with it or you'll end up sidelined!

I'd seriously urge you to train yourself to get your speed by spinning at between 85-100 rpm. Yeah, it's harder for a start, but overall it's better for your body - and actually faster ...
 
Jul 28, 2009
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I should mention I am planning to break 20 minutes for 10 miles WITH hairy legs and no pointy helmet. This would amuse me.

I have not disregarded a higher cadence I am just not going to force it. It's there in the back of the mind at all times.

*edit*

Interesting I may have found a preventative measure to my not-yet chronic patella problem that surfaced on a single ride when I changed my position.

How Changing the Inversion/Eversion Foot Angle Affects the Nondriving Intersegmental Knee Moments and the Relative Activation of the Vastii Muscles in Cycling by Gregersen CS, Hull ML, Hakansson NA

The usual "your saddle too low" or "use a higher cadence" all I'll say is what works for a 150 lb EPO freak doesn't make it right for everyone.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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cromagnon said:
I have not disregarded a higher cadence I am just not going to force it. It's there in the back of the mind at all times.

The usual "your saddle too low" or "use a higher cadence" all I'll say is what works for a 150 lb EPO freak doesn't make it right for everyone.
+1 - or even other "EPO freaks". I'd say that you are on the right track by not focusing on cadence. Just go with what feels right to you. We're all wired just a little differently and what works for some doesn't necessarily work for others.

Dave
 
Jun 16, 2009
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dkrenik said:
+1 - or even other "EPO freaks". I'd say that you are on the right track by not focusing on cadence. Just go with what feels right to you. We're all wired just a little differently and what works for some doesn't necessarily work for others.

Dave
It's not just about 150lb lightweights like me (actually I'm a 160lb lightweight ...), it's a combination of simple physics and the efforts required.

Try this on for size ...

Circumference of a 700c tubular is 213cm. If we assume that you're using a typical "spinny" big ring gear of 53x16, then spinning that at 90rpm for an hour gives a distance of 38.1 km - or 38.1km/h speed.

If we drop cadence by 10 rpm - which is still a spinner's leg speed - then, at 80 rpm, we need to be spinning a 53x14 to get the same speed. Not impossible, but for most people harder work than spinning the 53x16.

Drop the cadence by another 10 rpm - down to 70rpm, which is more of a "masher's gear", then to get the same speed, we need to be pushing a 53x12 for the hour. That's getting to be a sprinter's gear.

Cromagnon, you've said you want to get a sub-20min 16km, so you're going to need to do over 48km/h ... so even at 80 rpm, you're going to need a 53x11 ... if you want to pedal at 70 rpm, you'll need a 55x11.

Obviously I don't know what kind of cadence you're targeting, but this maths is pretty much why people will be telling you to get some leg speed - that and the fact that it's actually easier to maintain for longer periods of time. :)

And hey, if you can get your target with the higher gears and lower cadence then I will be seriously impressed!! (And I mean that as an honest statement - no sarcasm or wisecracks in there!) :)
 
Mar 12, 2009
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Going to pick on a few points so far mentioned in this thread...

1. Why exactly do you want to use more glutes? Are you sure that your limiter is a muscular one, or a cardiovascular one?

2. "Burning" glutes would indicate a possible position problem. Whilst, like others have mentioned, the various formulae and systems like "knee over pedal" etc will put you in the right ballpark every person is different. An expert bike fitter should be able to dial this right in. I recommend Retul as a systems which takes a very holistic (and accurate) approach to fitting.

3. Weights have not yet been shown to have any benefit for improving endurance based exercise.

4. The generalizations about cadence hold little water. A presentation by Dr Jim Martin highlighted some of the myths in cycling, one being crank length (length does not affect power output) and the other that usually self-selected cadence is often the most efficient (and often lower cadences being more efficient). That being said race applications may call for certain types of cadence as they are better suited for the occasion, eg: you may want a higher cadence in a crit to allow you to accelerate easier.

FWIW Graeme Obree was going to have another crack at the hour record with, from memory, a 133 inch gearing. This equates to over 50kph at 80 rpm...


Just my 2 cents worth.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Thanks for responses guys, regarding the "burning" it was local fatigue in the lower quads.

I am working towards a higher cadence I will not have a Lance Armstrong technique overnight. Right now I go faster when I mash, it's like the muscles tense then they bunch up (and then they bring their friends) and together they put a big force down on the pedal. I discovered this in a timetrial. I am not the usual cycling beginner in that I have a lot of muscle mass and strength and a fairly large absolute oxygen uptake, admittedly it was running on a treadmill but it was preseason I was not that fit and I am losing weight.

The upper body in particular is slimming down triceps seem to be half as thick when seen from behind. Torso too I had some fat around the midriff I could never shift for years. Enurance sport ftw. I like it and so does the missus. I might do some cheeky bicep curls and deltoid work, just to keep those muscles for vanity sake. Worth an extra few pounds of weight :D

- I want as much muscle mass as possible engaged in the activity, glutes are huge
- my problem was local fatigue in the lower quads
-apparently recruiting the vastus lateralis more may relieve the lower quad local muscular fatigue but cause patella problems as the VL can pull the kneecap outwards as it tracks causing extra wear on patella cartilage.

So the saddle stays back despite me going faster with it forward. Will have to wait for vastus medialis and other muscles to "catch up" with the vastus lateralis.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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www.edwardgtalbot.com
cromagnon said:
I want as much muscle mass as possible engaged in the activity, glutes are huge

Just curious, why? Don't you want to ride your fastest time? Engaging more muscle mass may very well not do it. Someone with a lot of muscle mass moving from another sport to cycling is not in the slightest unique, and most of the advice I've seen given here (including both increasing cadence and doing what feels best) certainly would apply to people in your position.

There is a tendency to over-analyze things - I suffer horribly from it myself. But I'd recommend listening to people who have knowledge and experience about the issues you're facing. The two quickest paths to injury are trying to imitate other riders exactly and thinking that you are unique enough to ignore most of the advice. If your knee or other problems persist at all, you might want to think about that some more.

I hope you do get you 20:00 10-miler. That is a seriously fast time.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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@ egatalbot, yes this is what I was referring too. Muscle mass does not have a direct correlation with aerobic performance.

cromagnon, you can recruit as many muscles as you want but this may not improve your performance per se.

The fact you ride faster in a forward position may be attributed to many factors not least of which may be a more efficient position, especially in terms of aerodynamics.

Consider this from Saris (Powertap people):-
http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink,guid,572c0515-e51f-4903-92e6-127ed289cb4a.aspx

A dude can hold 400 watts for a 40km TT and DOESN'T win. Hence aero is important. As I mentioned previously about cranks and power production, short crank can help you get in a better position. Every gram of drag counts if you want to crack the 20.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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egtalbot said:
Just curious, why? Don't you want to ride your fastest time? Engaging more muscle mass may very well not do it.

Apparently it takes a while to learn the firing patterns for a good stroke which was why my high cadence TT's were epic fials so I am going back to basics, back in the neutral position (cleats the way they were, saddle where it was before etc after my original fit) and with 90+ cadence. I'm just over 4 minutes away from 20.00 which when you think about it is about 20%. So I might never get there but trying to will get me extremely fit, good enough. I will certainly be slower for a while.

btw my original post was me trying to get around the problem of local muscle fatigue i.e. "spread the work around" but based on a "common sense" fallacy. I was told I have to learn a proper stroke and there are no short cuts.

@tapeworm

"Baumann, on the other hand, was a comparative sail, as he would have had to put out almost 470W to match Busche" :D

That's pretty sobering. 500 watts with hairy legs probably haha
 
Jul 27, 2009
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It shouldn't take more than a week or 2 for your body to "adjust" to a new position (assuming "new" isn't radically different from "old").
Also, unless you're addressing other fit issues (low back pain and such) I have to echo the others response with "why?"

If your goal is to make a particular time in a ITT, then you want to maximize your watts/CdA. Get your position appropriately aero and push as hard as you can. You should find that as your body gets used to a more aero position that you can get more aero in smaller increments without sacrificing (too much) power.

It's OK to lose some power as long as the drop in CdA justifies it.

Dave
 
Jul 28, 2009
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dkrenik said:
Also, unless you're addressing other fit issues (low back pain and such) I have to echo the others response with "why?"

Why? To go faster why else.

I would move the saddle and cleats around pretty randomly, then try to hold the highest wattage for as long as possible on the trainer. Then changing things later that day or the next day and keeping a record I got pretty obsessed actually.

I am now thinking I set a PB for 10 miles simply because I was doing so many maximal sessions a week on the aero bars, and being on holiday and having more energy to train like that and eating better food at home instead of the crap I eat at work. Sleeping in etc etc nothing to do with the position (maybe being further forward and more aero I suppose also helped). None of that matters anymore am back to square one position-wise but it was a good experience anyway.