How good BMC/Evans. The perfect Tour?

[mastersracer]

Hrm, I think you're misunderstanding my points.

As a sidenote, no, I don't think Andy is a real GC contender. Can't descend, can't TT, can't read a race properly and can't ride without his brother. He's just not a true GC rider (like Cadel is, btw). Andy may well win a tour, but only after the course lacks a prologue/TT of length, and the rest of the field isn't up to the win themselves.

You'd do well to recall the 2010 Tour. Andy lost by 39 seconds to the best grand tour rider of his generation, did it with Frank crashing out early on, and losing only 31 seconds to AC in the final time trial of 52 km.

 

[Angliru]

You'd do well to recall the 2010 Tour. Andy lost by 39 seconds to the best grand tour rider of his generation, did it with Frank crashing out early on, and losing only 31 seconds to AC in the final time trial of 52 km.

Yet he lost a minute and a half on this year's ITT to AC and that's progress?
Contador was admittedly out of sorts by the end of that Tour and that can be exhibited by comparing the time trial performances from 2010 and 2011. Even with an injured knee and fatigue from the Giro, the stability/tranquility that he found under Riis at Saxo Bank was evident in his overall Tour performance (minus the crashes). Evans is a fine example of how a positive team environment can work wonders on one's performance. The leadup to the 2010 season for Contador was one wrought with uncertainty and valuable energy spent doing everything but devoting proper time to training and preparing for the defense of his Tour title.

You'd do well to recall the circumstances of the 2009 Tour and thereafter with the announcement of the Radioshack team, that left Contador's future, in terms of who he'd be riding for, uncertain. Drama after drama throughout the 2009 season, followed by more drama.

I don't agree with the post that you responded to that AS is not a grand tour contender and will never win a Tour. Three second places in consecutive years is an obvious testament to his knocking on the door. What he needs is increased maturity and a more professional dedication to his craft.

 

[mastersracer]

Yet he lost a minute and a half on this year's ITT to AC and that's progress?
Contador was admittedly out of sorts by the end of that Tour and that can be exhibited by comparing the time trial performances from 2010 and 2011. Even with an injured knee and fatigue from the Giro, the stability/tranquility that he found under Riis at Saxo Bank was evident in his overall Tour performance (minus the crashes). Evans is a fine example of how a positive team environment can work wonders on one's performance. The leadup to the 2010 season for Contador was one wrought with uncertainty and valuable energy spent doing everything but devoting proper time to training and preparing for the defense of his Tour title.

You'd do well to recall the circumstances of the 2009 Tour and thereafter with the announcement of the Radioshack team, that left Contador's future, in terms of who he'd be riding for, uncertain. Drama after drama throughout the 2009 season, followed by more drama.

I don't agree with the post that you responded to that AS is not a grand tour contender and will never win a Tour. Three second places in consecutive years is an obvious testament to his knocking on the door. What he needs is increased maturity and a more professional dedication to his craft.

ironically, 2009 was his most dominant win at the Tour - I think AC actually thrives under adversity. Maybe he found calm under Riis (although I think they have a pretty distant relationship and Riis isn't exactly a calming influence to work under unless you like the military) but he also dominated at the Giro despite the CAS case hanging over him and a year filled with a ton of drama from the positive.

 

[Angliru]

ironically, 2009 was his most dominant win at the Tour - I think AC actually thrives under adversity. Maybe he found calm under Riis (although I think they have a pretty distant relationship and Riis isn't exactly a calming influence to work under unless you like the military) but he also dominated at the Giro despite the CAS case hanging over him and a year filled with a ton of drama from the positive.

I agree that Contador seems to do well when facing adversity but that has been the norm in the past 3 years, not the exception. He rose to the occasion in 2007 under relatively normal circumstances (for him, not Rassmussen). I personally don't know enough about Riis to pass judgement on his managerial style other than the pre-season camps and the quotes from current and past employees/riders. He seems to be an exceptional motivator considering how many riders have reached the pinnacle of their careers under his wing. Any further analysis can't be discussed here and of course would simply be more speculation but the results speak for themselves.

 

[FignonLeGrand]

Evans rode a perfect race and was the strongest rider on show.

However, I felt for him on a number of occasions because he was badly isolated so often.

If Evans had come 2nd or 3rd then I think everyone would have blamed his team for the defeat because, in my opinion, they looked very weak (except on the flat stages where they performed as good as every other team).

For me, the Schlecks lost the tour in the Pyrenees when they refused to attack and on the stage to Galibier when Evans had pulled so hard he was at his most vulnerable to attack.

I'll probably be proved wrong next year but I reckon the only way Andy or Frank Schleck can win the tour is if they race on different teams, or one sacrifices everything for the other.

Frank Schleck cannot win the TdF he just inst good enough. A lot of comment has been on why the Schleck's didnt do more, well only one of them could. Franks attacks were no more than a slight acceleration cept for when he nipped off for a few secs at the line after being towed all day. I dont think either of them has a great brain which is why Andy did so much better last year when Frank crashed out and it was simple he and the team had to ride for him, only. Also brings to mind the fact that Riis could pull their strings well and the new team smacks of amateurism.

 

[lostincosmos]

You'd do well to recall the 2010 Tour. Andy lost by 39 seconds to the best grand tour rider of his generation, did it with Frank crashing out early on, and losing only 31 seconds to AC in the final time trial of 52 km.

i think Angliru took care of responding to this, but to throw in one other point as well.....

i do recall the 2010 Tour, when Andy was hanging with an AC who was in poor form. significantly poor form for him. whom Andy couldn't ever ride away from far enough to limit TT damage. So i'm not sure the argument that Andy was close to the "best grand tour rider of his generation" argues more than it seems to forget....

I don't agree with the post that you responded to that AS is not a grand tour contender and will never win a Tour. Three second places in consecutive years is an obvious testament to his knocking on the door. What he needs is increased maturity and a more professional dedication to his craft.

i appreciate your pointsin response to MastersRacer, firstly.
otherwise:
Three 2nds is nothing to laugh at, i agree, and those are testament to his incredible climbing ability and also inability to race to win as two of those (last year and this year) very well could have been yellow jerseys in my estimation.

and i would point out that what i said was that he *may* win a Tour yet, if things fall in line for him in terms of course (this year couldn't have been designed any better for Andy, it seems to me) and off-form competitors. But as long as GC hopes like Cadel, AC and, this year, Samu are in the same race and in the same form as Andy, i think Andy's odds are low against them.

Andy needs to descend better, to TT *much* better, to hold an attack and to stop saying he's in good shape when he's only a minute up on a guy who would soft pedal that out of him on the penultimate day.

you could be right, maybe he'll mature and start to get it. but the two 2nd places before this likely should have taught him that already, and it seems like maybe his team isn't guiding him how they should either.

And before too long, here, Andy will not only have Cadel and AC to worry about, but also younger folks like Porte who can also climb/TT hanging about.

 

[ManInFull]

Like it or not, Andy still has plenty of time. He's only 26, right? I think he came into the tour weaker than what he was last year. He really didn't drop anyone on any climbs. His attacks in the Pyrenees were awful, but I suspect that those were illustrations of his mind wanting to do something that his body couldn't perform. He probably needs to take a different approach to training for the Tour, along with improving his descending and time-trialing skills. He will certainly have some stiff competition in the coming years, but he does have the talent to win it.

 

[mastersracer]

It's questionable that Contador was off-form for the 2010 Tour - his buildup was excellent in 2010, from Paris-Nice to beating Evans in Criterium International and coming in 2nd at Dauphiné. If anything, Andy was stronger in 2010 and the course was harder with its emphasis on the Pyrenees - the only real weakness AC showed was the final time trial. And, there's really no question he's the best grand tour rider of his generation - and (suspensions pending) is likely to end up with the most grand tour victories since Merckx.

 

[rata de sentina]

You'd do well to recall the 2010 Tour. Andy lost by 39 seconds to the best grand tour rider of his generation, did it with Frank crashing out early on, and losing only 31 seconds to AC in the final time trial of 52 km.

AC really sucked in 2010 his time trial was well below his capabilities which really makes his current problems hard to fathom.

 

[movingtarget]

No one denies Andy's talent but I do think he came into the race in inferior form to 2010. People admitted that Contador was under par which he was but for most of the race I actually thought Frank looked better than Andy. Frank may have been able to stretch Cadel more in the mountains if Andy was just riding in support but once again the brother business took over.

To me Evans looked great in the first week and improved as the race went on. I think his preparation was spot on this year. I have said all along, put the Schlecks in different teams and they will do better but they have admitted that it won't be happening. The ironic thing is that for all of Andy's looking over his shoulder at Contador's whereabouts, it was Evans riding beside him who was the biggest threat and Schleck and his team made the big miscalculation of concentrating on an average Contador instead of a strong Evans. This is where I think they miss Bjarne Riis' ability to read a race. I am sure their tactics would have been very different if still riding for their previous DS.

 

[Oldman]

You'd do well to recall the 2010 Tour. Andy lost by 39 seconds to the best grand tour rider of his generation, did it with Frank crashing out early on, and losing only 31 seconds to AC in the final time trial of 52 km.

Everyone would do well to note that 2010 was another aberrant year where the best budget still secured the best preparation. Preparation in terms of rider training, PED consultation and delivery to specific Tour locations. The Gendarmes and others took care of the last logistical benefit and those that needed that edge did not have it.

 

[Woody22]

Perfect ride by Evans and BMC in 2011. If the medium mountains rumour is true then look for another perfect performance in 2012.

 

[greenedge]

They did very well as a team. Next year TJVG will start and Phinney might do his first GT. Exciting times. Nice Swiss riders as well, Frank, Kohler and Morabito.

 

[lostincosmos]

It's questionable that Contador was off-form for the 2010 Tour - his buildup was excellent in 2010, from Paris-Nice to beating Evans in Criterium International and coming in 2nd at Dauphiné. If anything, Andy was stronger in 2010 and the course was harder with its emphasis on the Pyrenees - the only real weakness AC showed was the final time trial. And, there's really no question he's the best grand tour rider of his generation - and (suspensions pending) is likely to end up with the most grand tour victories since Merckx.

You seem to have seen a race the rest of us didn't. AC was not in great form during that race at all, whatever his lead up. Lacked his top end punch, looked tired and had Andy not blown a gear change it would have been very close for yellow in paris.

I don't think you'll find too many that say AC was at 80-85% or better in last year's Tour.

 

[Krebs cycle]

I think the "perfect tour" standard was set by US Postal/Discovery. Lance would get the yellow in the first week and then the entire team would ride every stage thereafter as if it were a TTT. They would single handedly control the race tempo and keep the pace high enough to nullify any chance of dangerous breaks and they were there supporting Lance in the high mountains right up until the point where Lance would attack and go on to win the stage and gain more time over his nearest rivals.

Compared to that, there is no way you can say that BMC rode the "perfect" tour. But at the same time, I would consider those tours pretty much the most boring in the history of the race itself. Year after year, the tactics never changed and there really wasn't much of a race at all for the win. Just other teams and riders trying to limit their losses and fight it out for 2nd/3rd place.

So maybe BMC didn't or simply couldn't, ride the perfect tour, but as a result, it sure made this year one of the most exciting races to watch for a long time.

 

[goggalor]

You seem to have seen a race the rest of us didn't. AC was not in great form during that race at all, whatever his lead up. Lacked his top end punch, looked tired and had Andy not blown a gear change it would have been very close for yellow in paris.

I don't think you'll find too many that say AC was at 80-85% or better in last year's Tour.

He wasn't as good as in 2009, but I do think he hit his peak for the Tour. Also remember he lost a fair amount of time on the Arenberg stage.

 

[Oldman]

I think the "perfect tour" standard was set by US Postal/Discovery. Lance would get the yellow in the first week and then the entire team would ride every stage thereafter as if it were a TTT. They would single handedly control the race tempo and keep the pace high enough to nullify any chance of dangerous breaks and they were there supporting Lance in the high mountains right up until the point where Lance would attack and go on to win the stage and gain more time over his nearest rivals.

Compared to that, there is no way you can say that BMC rode the "perfect" tour. But at the same time, I would consider those tours pretty much the most boring in the history of the race itself. Year after year, the tactics never changed and there really wasn't much of a race at all for the win. Just other teams and riders trying to limit their losses and fight it out for 2nd/3rd place.

So maybe BMC didn't or simply couldn't, ride the perfect tour, but as a result, it sure made this year one of the most exciting races to watch for a long time.

Fortunately the USPS "Tours" were shown by this year's more dramatic and real race to be farces. Folks caught up in the faux dominance of those totally PED-manipulated teams have now seen a less organized and artificially charged version of the sport. Almost everyone that has mentioned this year's race to me, be it hard core former Lance fan or the casual observer; appreciated the number of passionate players in this edition. The UCI and everyone else should take note and see the advantage of giving up the old ways.

 

[lostincosmos]

He wasn't as good as in 2009, but I do think he hit his peak for the Tour. Also remember he lost a fair amount of time on the Arenberg stage.

srsly, and i don't say this as any kind of put-down or insult to you or mastersrace, but this is the strangest conversation i've ever had about last year's tour.