I have figued out what will stop me from watching.

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Anonymous

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If Kenny Van Hummel ever test positive for doping, I freaking quit!
 
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Escarabajo said:
Including "Marihuana" and "Cocaine"?
No, just the performance enhancing kind. His private life isn't my concern, just his sporting one.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Wiggins for me...only because he has stated that his only started taking the tour seriously because VdV 08 performance made him believe clean riders can compete
 
Jun 29, 2009
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mherm79 said:
Wiggins for me...only because he has stated that his only started taking the tour seriously because VdV 08 performance made him believe clean riders can compete
Yeah Wiggo would be a disaster. I'm pretty much convinced Contadope & Co. are on the juice. Still undecided about Wiggo. I'd like to think the guy is clean but I still have a nagging doubt about his performances.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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red_explosions said:
Yeah Wiggo would be a disaster. I'm pretty much convinced Contadope & Co. are on the juice. Still undecided about Wiggo. I'd like to think the guy is clean but I still have a nagging doubt about his performances.
I also vote Wiggo. The way he kept dragging himself back up to people did not look like a guy on the juice to me, looked more like a guy who was suffering like a dog but bit the bullet and drug himself across the gap.
People on drugs never look like they hurt THAT bad. I was rooting for him and at the same time i felt like i was watching some guy getting kicked in the balls, over & over

Wiggo is clean
 
runninboy said:
People on drugs never look like they hurt THAT bad.
Have you seen Paco Mancebo ride the TDF? Or Ullrich on one of his many bad days?

Your comment suggest that people on dope are in less pain, which seems strange to me. They might ride stronger, but excluding the winner everybody is losing so i would think everyone is running all-out (=massive pain) to try to beat the nr 1.

edit: Oh and on topic: At the moment there isn't one rider getting caught that would make me stop watching cycling. However 5 or 10 more years of having most of the topcontenders getting caught like we have had in recent years would really get tiresome. And very bad for the sport.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Roninho said:
Your comment suggest that people on dope are in less pain, which seems strange to me. They might ride stronger, but excluding the winner everybody is losing so i would think everyone is running all-out (=massive pain) to try to beat the nr 1.
So since everyone is in massive pain because they are chasing number 1
why don't they all look like they are on deaths door?

And maybe Ullrich was not juiced up the day you saw him suffer.
heres a hint, bad day= not jacked
 
Jun 29, 2009
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I think even dopers are going to have a bad day now and again. It doesn't matter how high your crit is jacked to, if you have a glucose bonk you're pretty much stuffed. If I remember rightly even Armstrong hit the wall on one of the climbs in the 2000 tour. Having said all that, doping will obviously bring massive gains long term.
 
runninboy said:
So since everyone is in massive pain because they are chasing number 1
why don't they all look like they are on deaths door?
I am not saying everyone is looking like they are dying even if they are on dope, i'm just saying that i've seen many riders in massive pain who were more then likely on dope on those days.

heres a hint, bad day= not jacked
TDF 2007 stage 13:
1. Alexandre Vinokourov

TDF 2007 stage 14:
81. Alexandre Vinokourov + 28M50

TDF 2007 stage 15:
1. Alexandre Vinoukorov

Vino was tested and found positive for blood doping on the 13th and 15th stage (not tested on the 14th stage). I guess he was dopefree on the 14th stage though because a bad day is not jacked up .....
 
Mar 18, 2009
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TFF....you said it in a nut shell!!!! If Kenny ever tested positive, or non negative, or whatever, it would be the end for me period!!
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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I think speculating on who isn't doping is more dangerous than speculating on who is. I have stopped being a fan of riders for some time - which is a sad reflection on the sport.

I just don't have the confidence in anyone - even the few Pro Tour guys I know -to say rider X is definitely clean.

However I will say if there was ever a positive within Garmin or Columbia that was found independent of their own internal controls it would be a new low for the sport.
 
Roninho said:
Have you seen Paco Mancebo ride the TDF? Or Ullrich on one of his many bad days?
Ullrich always looked like he was suffering big time on climbs during the Armstrong years. I remember around 2004 to 2005 people used to make the argument that even though they believed Armstrong was doping, Ullrich must be clean because of his huge talent and the way he suffered on climbs. We all saw how that turned out.

Some riders look calm even as they are on the verge of cracking, like Kloden when he was away with the Shreks and Contador. Others always look like they are about to crack, but they never do. It is a stylistic difference. Trying to divine who is doping by the expression on people's faces is about as valid as telling someone's personality from the bumps on their head.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Ullrich always looked like he was suffering big time on climbs during the Armstrong years. I remember around 2004 to 2005 people used to make the argument that even though they believed Armstrong was doping, Ullrich must be clean because of his huge talent and the way he suffered on climbs. We all saw how that turned out.

Some riders look calm even as they are on the verge of cracking, like Kloden when he was away with the Shreks and Contador. Others always look like they are about to crack, but they never do. It is a stylistic difference. Trying to divine who is doping by the expression on people's faces is about as valid as telling someone's personality from the bumps on their head.
I think the Epo didnt work on him as good as they worked for Lance. As said by D´Hont "If we had a clean peloton, Ullrich would have dominated for years"
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
If Kenny Van Hummel ever test positive for doping, I freaking quit!
I´ll quit when we have the first fixed race like there was many in soccer, Handball, NBA, MLB, NFL etc.

Because now we (almost*) have a honest competition, thats why we watch.

* I still think the best riders win, even tough doping shuffles the true rankings a bit. See Armstrong, it seems the dope works best for him, while others felt the Epo didnt work at all for their bodies (Zabel). Lance must be the happiest person in the pelton because Epo gave him such a huge advantage.
 
May 13, 2009
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red_explosions said:
Yeah Wiggo would be a disaster. I'm pretty much convinced Contadope & Co. are on the juice. Still undecided about Wiggo. I'd like to think the guy is clean but I still have a nagging doubt about his performances.
Wiggins doped? Honestly, I wouldn't even be surprised.

Also, I wouldn't care much if the lantern rouge is doped or not.

I don't know what it would take to stop me from watching cycling. Maybe when it stops being a sport and becomes a spectacle like wrestling. Too much race fixing or scripted stage would probably kill it for me.
 
Jun 29, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
I´ll quit when we have the first fixed race like there was many in soccer, Handball, NBA, MLB, NFL etc.

Because now we (almost*) have a honest competition, thats why we watch.

* I still think the best riders win, even tough doping shuffles the true rankings a bit. See Armstrong, it seems the dope works best for him, while others felt the Epo didnt work at all for their bodies (Zabel). Lance must be the happiest person in the pelton because Epo gave him such a huge advantage.
I'd go further. The idea that the same riders would be winning if everyone was clean is a myth. Not everyone responds equally to EPO therapy. The ones who respond best are the ones getting the results. It's absolutely possible that the guys who have done/are doing well on EPO could be nowhere if the whole peleton was riding clean.
 
May 1, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
Also, I wouldn't care much if the lantern rouge is doped or not.
If Kenny Van Hummel was doping, he needs to have a SERIOUS chat with his doctor!
 
Jun 15, 2009
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red_explosions said:
I'd go further. The idea that the same riders would be winning if everyone was clean is a myth. Not everyone responds equally to EPO therapy. The ones who respond best are the ones getting the results. It's absolutely possible that the guys who have done/are doing well on EPO could be nowhere if the whole peleton was riding clean.
I somehow agree with you, here is what i wrote:

I´ll quit when we have the first fixed race like there was many in soccer, Handball, NBA, MLB, NFL etc.

Because now we (almost*) have a honest competition, thats why we watch.

* I still think the best riders win, even tough doping shuffles the true rankings a bit. See Armstrong, it seems the dope works best for him, while others felt the Epo didnt work at all for their bodies (Zabel). Lance must be the happiest person in the pelton because Epo gave him such a huge advantage.

So while you say its complete different rankings if we have a clean peloton, i wouldnt go that far. Armstrong clearly had the biggest advantage of Epo, while Bassons and Ullrich were the victims. I dont say that because i am german, but because from the experts within the teams came: "If we had a clean peloton, Ullrich dominates for years (said by D`Hont who worked 40 years with the pro teams)".

Its what Lemond and others say: Talent shows early (Hinault, Anquetil, Fignon, Lemond himself, Ullrich etc.). But since Epo came: Guys like Rijs, Indurain and Armstrong came out of nowhere. As BroDeal wrote in another thread: Lance responded very well to drugs, thats why he survived Stage IV cancer, were only 3-5% of pipo survive.

This good responding to drugs helped him later to win 7 times in the Epo-Era.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Again Foxxy to be fair all three you mentioned were very good cyclists before they won the Tour. However of the 3 Indurain had won the Tour de L'Avenir which was almost like the U23 TdF.
Both Riis and Armstrong though were Classic riders are potential short hilly stage race winners- Criterium International etc.

Even though Lance was winning in Europe from age 19 it was difficult to see where his future lay. I think most pundits agreed that he was going to make a fine Classics rider but never a GT contender.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Roninho said:
I am not saying everyone is looking like they are dying even if they are on dope, i'm just saying that i've seen many riders in massive pain who were more then likely on dope on those days.



TDF 2007 stage 13:
1. Alexandre Vinokourov

TDF 2007 stage 14:
81. Alexandre Vinokourov + 28M50

TDF 2007 stage 15:
1. Alexandre Vinoukorov

Vino was tested and found positive for blood doping on the 13th and 15th stage (not tested on the 14th stage). I guess he was dopefree on the 14th stage though because a bad day is not jacked up .....
yeah, that was sad actually; those were the days with the extreme breakaways he did right ? I thought he killed himself and was basically wrecked the next day.... I am glad the truth came out though.

I liked Pantani a lot too; I thought he had heart, I thought he had guts; but...

I stayed away from the 06 tdf when puerto broke just before the start, the king leaves and all the rats start to fight to control the castle. My wife watched. She screamed for me to see when Floyd did his thing- I saw it, but I didn't believe it then.

07 I liked how Rabobank dealt with dealt with their problem; that tour was worth watching, not for the race as opposed to how a sponsor maintains their integrity

Last year 08, when Ricco and Piepoli took the stage it was like watching 2 thieves robbing a group of people on the street

This year, without Basso, Di Luca, Rasmussen, Landis, Hamilton, Kohl, Schumacer or Vino on the start line it seemed like an honest race worth watching.

We have yet to see what revelations we have borne witness this past Tour...but if the past is any indication of the present the future may not be any different
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Again Foxxy to be fair all three you mentioned were very good cyclists before they won the Tour. However of the 3 Indurain had won the Tour de L'Avenir which was almost like the U23 TdF.
Both Riis and Armstrong though were Classic riders are potential short hilly stage race winners- Criterium International etc.

Even though Lance was winning in Europe from age 19 it was difficult to see where his future lay. I think most pundits agreed that he was going to make a fine Classics rider but never a GT contender.
Agree 100%. Classics are not GTs. Look at Cunrgo now riding clean (19th in Giro, while being in the best age). Thats where Lance would have been. Winning Fleche Wallonne etc. maybe, but no way he beats Jan Ullrich.

OK, may am wrong with Indurain a bit. But no way he wins 5 times, if he wasnt with Dottore-Epo-Ferrari.

Rijs finished behind Kimmage in the 80s in the Final-GC !!!

Ullrich was winning against 3 year older riders, while he drove on a street-bike w/sport-shoes. He really got robbed.

We never know what would have been, if Bassons wasnt forced out by Lance AND if he had taken Epo.
 

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