Icarus Documentary (spoilers)

Dec 13, 2015
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Yeah, it's well worth a look. Though I'm still struggling to work out Grigory Rodchenkov's motivation for turning whistle blower.
 
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idunno said:
Yeah, it's well worth a look. Though I'm still struggling to work out Grigory Rodchenkov's motivation for turning whistle blower.
The answer to your question is contained in the documentary.
I was completely unaware of Grigory's story until stumbling on benzwire's post.
Fascinating story and well worth watching. Only criticism is the length.
I figure it's about 30 minutes too long.
But maybe that's just me. I have the attention span of a circus monkey.
 
Dec 13, 2015
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the delgados said:
idunno said:
Yeah, it's well worth a look. Though I'm still struggling to work out Grigory Rodchenkov's motivation for turning whistle blower.
The answer to your question is contained in the documentary.

And that would be?
 
Jun 22, 2010
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the delgados said:
idunno said:
Yeah, it's well worth a look. Though I'm still struggling to work out Grigory Rodchenkov's motivation for turning whistle blower.
The answer to your question is contained in the documentary.
I was completely unaware of Grigory's story until stumbling on benzwire's post.
Fascinating story and well worth watching. Only criticism is the length.
I figure it's about 30 minutes too long.
But maybe that's just me. I have the attention span of a circus monkey.
Rodchenkov is a weasel. He tried to frame his wife. He attempted suicide. He's had an address in California since 2011. He isn't anti-doping. He is out there for the money. And you know that the Americans are just loving any negative stories they can get on any Russian, whether it's true or false. There are athletes that were shown in the documentary that have nothing to do with Rodchenkov and are not and have not faced any doping issues or allegations. If the guy is against the system and wanted clean sport, why didn't he leave the country years ago? What took him so long? The Stepanovs as well. She got caught doping. The only reason she started talking was because the Russian federation didn't pay for her doping offense, didn't appeal or clear her name and she didn't like that. This isn't anti doping, this is pure political propaganda. There are tons of athletes that have not been implicated in anything and yet they are not allowed to compete because confirmed dopers like Yulia Stepanova didn't get what they wanted.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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BullsFan22....motivation for confession can come in many forms, take Landis for example, had Bruyneel and Armstrong managed the situation better and given him a ride then the whole USPostal/Armstrong thing may never have seen the light of day....often a whistle blowers motivation is vengeance, we should be grateful they come forward and spill the beans regardless.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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deviant said:
BullsFan22....motivation for confession can come in many forms, take Landis for example, had Bruyneel and Armstrong managed the situation better and given him a ride then the whole USPostal/Armstrong thing may never have seen the light of day....often a whistle blowers motivation is vengeance, we should be grateful they come forward and spill the beans regardless.
Smearing athletes that had nothing to do with him isn't something that he should proud of.
 
Sep 15, 2010
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Resources & References:

https://www.villagevoice.com/2017/08/03/how-a-documentary-about-russian-doping-became-a-rescue-mission/

Suspicious Deaths:

https://www.unian.info/world/1264887-two-senior-ex-officials-of-russias-anti-doping-agency-die-within-2-weeks.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/16/world/europe/nikita-kamayev-ex-head-of-russian-antidoping-agency-dies.html?action=click&contentCollection=Sports&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

original NY Times Articles:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/sports/russia-doping-sochi-olympics-2014.html

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/13/sports/russia-doping-sochi-olympics-2014.html?action=click&contentCollection=Sports&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/sports/russias-doping-problem-is-an-open-secret-no-longer.html?action=click&contentCollection=Sports&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

The Guardian | Russian Doping Scandal Archive:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/russia-doping-scandal

NPR Stories:

http://www.npr.org/2016/05/15/478148954/russian-officials-deny-allegations-of-state-sponsored-athlete-doping

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/17/478408517/olympic-committee-could-bar-31-athletes-from-rio-games

http://www.npr.org/2016/05/18/478488986/russian-officials-deny-reports-of-state-sponsored-doping-of-athletes

http://www.npr.org/2016/05/19/478643424/will-russian-athletes-be-barred-from-rios-summer-olympics

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/27/479719855/23-athletes-test-positive-after-samples-from-london-olympics-rechecked

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2016/07/19/486595080/report-russia-used-mouse-hole-to-swap-urine-samples-of-olympic-athletes

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/09/504937994/more-than-1-000-russian-athletes-benefited-from-doping-conspiracy-report-says

Mclaren Report | The IP Evidence Disclosure Package:

https://www.ipevidencedisclosurepackage.net/

Document List:

https://www.ipevidencedisclosurepackage.net/all-documents.htm

Index Attached
 
Jun 21, 2015
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I thought it was compelling.

I didn't expect new revelations. That said, the high-profile nature of this documentary's means it can reach audiences who aren't as doping-savvy as most clinic posters.

It's a shame that similar exposés don't exist to condemn all the other doping athletes, corrupt sporting organizations, and crooked jurisdictions.
 
Dec 13, 2010
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benzwire said:
Now available on Netflix (at least in the USA). Great documentary. Absolutely fascinating, especially if you venture into The Clinic. Highly recommended watch!

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/how-a-cyclist-who-doped-to-ride-the-haute-route-blew-open-russian-doping-345311
Yep totally agree just watched it and posted my opinion in Doping in athletics which basically says and they want us to think that its only the Russians cheating and that us Brits have compounded the problem by giving honours to those that without a doubt have and still possibly are cheating. You've only got to read threads in the Clinic to have an understanding of who those athletes might be.
 
Re: Icarus - documentary film

deviant said:
BullsFan22....motivation for confession can come in many forms, take Landis for example, had Bruyneel and Armstrong managed the situation better and given him a ride then the whole USPostal/Armstrong thing may never have seen the light of day....often a whistle blowers motivation is vengeance, we should be grateful they come forward and spill the beans regardless.
Nobody likes a grass, if you genuinely hate doping/dopers and want to do something about it that is one thing. Turning because you've been caught yourself shows you are a little weasel.
 
Dec 13, 2015
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BullsFan22 said:
Rodchenkov is a weasel. He tried to frame his wife. He attempted suicide. He's had an address in California since 2011. He isn't anti-doping. He is out there for the money. And you know that the Americans are just loving any negative stories they can get on any Russian, whether it's true or false. There are athletes that were shown in the documentary that have nothing to do with Rodchenkov and are not and have not faced any doping issues or allegations. If the guy is against the system and wanted clean sport, why didn't he leave the country years ago? What took him so long? The Stepanovs as well. She got caught doping. The only reason she started talking was because the Russian federation didn't pay for her doping offense, didn't appeal or clear her name and she didn't like that. This isn't anti doping, this is pure political propaganda. There are tons of athletes that have not been implicated in anything and yet they are not allowed to compete because confirmed dopers like Yulia Stepanova didn't get what they wanted.
Yeah, he's lost his family, position and is living the high life in witness protection...

Edited by King Boonen: I hope you don't mind but I corrected the quote tags.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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idunno said:
BullsFan22 said:
Rodchenkov is a weasel. He tried to frame his wife. He attempted suicide. He's had an address in California since 2011. He isn't anti-doping. He is out there for the money. And you know that the Americans are just loving any negative stories they can get on any Russian, whether it's true or false. There are athletes that were shown in the documentary that have nothing to do with Rodchenkov and are not and have not faced any doping issues or allegations. If the guy is against the system and wanted clean sport, why didn't he leave the country years ago? What took him so long? The Stepanovs as well. She got caught doping. The only reason she started talking was because the Russian federation didn't pay for her doping offense, didn't appeal or clear her name and she didn't like that. This isn't anti doping, this is pure political propaganda. There are tons of athletes that have not been implicated in anything and yet they are not allowed to compete because confirmed dopers like Yulia Stepanova didn't get what they wanted.
Yeah, he's lost his family, position and is living the high life in witness protection...

Edited by King Boonen: I hope you don't mind but I corrected the quote tags.
So because he's had personal problems of his own making, he needs destroy other people's lives? Yep. Definitely a weasel.
 
Dec 23, 2009
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I thought the film was compelling, but that the drama around Rodchenkov and the Olympics scandal sidelined the problematic premise of film's original conception. Vogel tried to present his decision to dope as a sort-of Super Size Me for sport, but does anyone actually doubt that doping works at this point? You can see when he returns to do the Haute Route that he's really disappointed to have a bad race. He doped because he wanted to win the Haute Route, a decision he justified by saying that there was a group in the race who was just in another world (others do it to win), and that this was just an experiment (my doping is ethical). Once the story turned all Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, it moved quickly away from Vogel's real disappointment, which was that being a doper wasn't enough to turn him into a pro cyclist, for an amateur race.
 
May 22, 2010
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Compelling viewing. Very informative.

I agree, it is hard to fully comprehend the motivations of many of the people involved. Starting with Don Catlin,wtf! Rodchenkov and Fogel of course. I've always wondered about the consummate politician Richard William Duncan "Dick" Pound. But it just keeps going, the people grandstanding in that WADA meeting around the 1h35m mark? Beckie Scott there, looking shocked, shocked! That Christine Ayotte from WADA, comes off as a little bit ridiculous. And, how in hell does Fogel get two (three, four?) cameras in that meeting? Or get the footage from the teleconference, or whatever?

hondated said:
Yep totally agree just watched it and posted my opinion in Doping in athletics which basically says and they want us to think that its only the Russians cheating and that us Brits have compounded the problem by giving honours to those that without a doubt have and still possibly are cheating. You've only got to read threads in the Clinic to have an understanding of who those athletes might be.
There are quite a few pictures of Americans, and the notion that testing doesn't work is well established. I agree that Fogel should have gone further in demonstrating that doping pervades all sport, but.. In the end the documentary is about Fogel and Rodchenkov and the McLaren investigation.
 
May 22, 2010
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BullsFan22 said:
He tried to frame his wife.
Site please? I put 10 minutes into searching, and I can't figure out what you are talking about here..

BullsFan22 said:
He attempted suicide.
This, to you, is the true mark of a weasel?

BullsFan22 said:
And you know that the Americans are just loving any negative stories they can get on any Russian, whether it's true or false.
Half of Americans, I think you have to admit, as frightening as that is.

BullsFan22 said:
There are athletes that were shown in the documentary that have nothing to do with Rodchenkov and are not and have not faced any doping issues or allegations.
Could you please be specific? I'm quite interested in following up.
 
Re: Icarus - documentary film

Singer01 said:
deviant said:
BullsFan22....motivation for confession can come in many forms, take Landis for example, had Bruyneel and Armstrong managed the situation better and given him a ride then the whole USPostal/Armstrong thing may never have seen the light of day....often a whistle blowers motivation is vengeance, we should be grateful they come forward and spill the beans regardless.
Nobody likes a grass, if you genuinely hate doping/dopers and want to do something about it that is one thing. Turning because you've been caught yourself shows you are a little weasel.
Has it ever been a case of someone talking without being caught?
The closest I can see are retired riders like Fignon, Rooks and others. But active riders?
 
Jul 9, 2012
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BullsFan22 said:
idunno said:
BullsFan22 said:
Rodchenkov is a weasel. He tried to frame his wife. He attempted suicide. He's had an address in California since 2011. He isn't anti-doping. He is out there for the money. And you know that the Americans are just loving any negative stories they can get on any Russian, whether it's true or false. There are athletes that were shown in the documentary that have nothing to do with Rodchenkov and are not and have not faced any doping issues or allegations. If the guy is against the system and wanted clean sport, why didn't he leave the country years ago? What took him so long? The Stepanovs as well. She got caught doping. The only reason she started talking was because the Russian federation didn't pay for her doping offense, didn't appeal or clear her name and she didn't like that. This isn't anti doping, this is pure political propaganda. There are tons of athletes that have not been implicated in anything and yet they are not allowed to compete because confirmed dopers like Yulia Stepanova didn't get what they wanted.
Yeah, he's lost his family, position and is living the high life in witness protection...

Edited by King Boonen: I hope you don't mind but I corrected the quote tags.
So because he's had personal problems of his own making, he needs destroy other people's lives? Yep. Definitely a weasel.
If he stayed in Russia he would be dead, whether he revealed the program or not. He was a risk they would have eliminated like the other two died mysteriously. He had no choice.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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bigcog said:
BullsFan22 said:
idunno said:
BullsFan22 said:
Rodchenkov is a weasel. He tried to frame his wife. He attempted suicide. He's had an address in California since 2011. He isn't anti-doping. He is out there for the money. And you know that the Americans are just loving any negative stories they can get on any Russian, whether it's true or false. There are athletes that were shown in the documentary that have nothing to do with Rodchenkov and are not and have not faced any doping issues or allegations. If the guy is against the system and wanted clean sport, why didn't he leave the country years ago? What took him so long? The Stepanovs as well. She got caught doping. The only reason she started talking was because the Russian federation didn't pay for her doping offense, didn't appeal or clear her name and she didn't like that. This isn't anti doping, this is pure political propaganda. There are tons of athletes that have not been implicated in anything and yet they are not allowed to compete because confirmed dopers like Yulia Stepanova didn't get what they wanted.
Yeah, he's lost his family, position and is living the high life in witness protection...

Edited by King Boonen: I hope you don't mind but I corrected the quote tags.
So because he's had personal problems of his own making, he needs destroy other people's lives? Yep. Definitely a weasel.
If he stayed in Russia he would be dead, whether he revealed the program or not. He was a risk they would have eliminated like the other two died mysteriously. He had no choice.
He was in this profession for almost 30 years. If he was really 'anti-doping,' he could have left YEARS ago and said whatever he was going to be paid for. He's had a US address since 2011. Why didn't he stay there if he was worried about his life?

And once again, there are athletes that are in the documentary that have nothing to do with him.


Pure political propaganda.

Justin Gatlin fails multiple tests, and after his latest ban, he runs faster at 35 then he did when he was at his best 10-13 years ago. Why is he allowed to compete? Why is Farah allowed to compete? If his coach is being investigated for doping practices, shouldn't he be prevented from competing? Russian cross country skiers missed the two biggest events last year because of ongoing investigations that neither WADA, FIS OR IOC can get to the bottom of. It's a heck of a double standard.

I stand by my points.
 
I've watched some of it. Dude seemed very weird when he asked if the dog was fixed. It's not often I find myself thinking about a dog's testicles! Strange question for someone you just "met" a few minutes ago!
 
Jun 27, 2013
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Escarabajo said:
Has it ever been a case of someone talking without being caught?
The closest I can see are retired riders like Fignon, Rooks and others. But active riders?
In the 1997-1998 offseason Pascal Richard out of nowhere said to the press that members of the Telekom team had confided to him that Ullrich and Riis had tested positive at a training camp in Mallorca and the UCI had buried the positives.

And since it's an interesting story, I'll tell you how it panned out.

He and his team manager Vincent Lavenu were promptly summoned to a meeting with the UCI. After the meeting Richard said to the press that it wasn't actually true and he had made it all up for attention.

Immediately Lavenu and Richard's team called "Casino" proceeded to put in such a blatantly doped exhibition that even in the pre-Festina peloton other riders were calling it out as ridiculous. Several riders made cryptic references to how they had "friends" so they were allowed to run rampant.

They only toned it down when the Festina scandal happened in July. By that point they'd already won Tirreno, Amstel, Fleche and generally been at the front of every damned race they entered, with a squad that included zero guys who would be leaders on a big team.

They ended the year with 63 wins. The previous year with essentially the same squad they had 20, mostly stages of smaller stage races.

By the way, that team now goes by the name AG2R
 

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