If Contador is cleared should he start posting blood vaules Basso style?

Barrus

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Apr 28, 2010
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thehog said:
Looks to me if Alberto is cleared he has a uphill battle with the public to believe him again.

What should he do? Post his blood vaules?
To be quite honest if he is cleared, the general public won't think differently about him compared to how they thought about him prior to the incident. If that happens most of the media will gloss over the entire fact that he was caught, look at the backdated TUE of Armstrong, look at the new love of many of the reporters about Vino and there are many more examples, most doping is forgotten within a few years
 
Hey hog, you've started another interesting and non-incendiary thread: congrats! :)

If he is cleared, in his vindication he probably won't feel any need for greater transparency.

If he is suspended and comes back, then of course that could happen and it might be beneficial to him.

For cycling as a whole though, I think every rider would need to post their values and there would need to be a considerable period of rapprochement (coupled with continued consumer uptake) for the sport to get healthy.
 
Nov 9, 2010
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thehog said:
Looks to me if Alberto is cleared he has a uphill battle with the public to believe him again.

What should he do? Post his blood vaules?
He´ll do it like Riis did. Deny it until the noise created from his own silence gets too loud.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Haven't dopers by now learned to control their blood values and bio-passport in order for these not to look suspitious?
I mean, with abnormal blood values we know with a high degree of certainty that somebody blooddoped himself, but, vice versa, with regular values we can not at all be sure somebody did not blooddope himself, correct?
 
Nov 9, 2010
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sniper said:
Haven't dopers by now learned to control their blood values and bio-passport in order for these not to look suspitious?
I mean, with abnormal blood values we know with a high degree of certainty that somebody blooddoped himself, but, vice versa, with regular values we can not at all be sure somebody did not blooddope himself, correct?
It depends on what you define as "regular values".
 
I think the aftereffects of a pro cyclist being cleared of doping charges is similar to a man being exonerated of paedophelia. People will think, "He might have got off this time but he'd never have been charged to start with if he'd been behaving himself."
 
L'arriviste said:
Hey hog, you've started another interesting and non-incendiary thread: congrats! :)

If he is cleared, in his vindication he probably won't feel any need for greater transparency.

If he is suspended and comes back, then of course that could happen and it might be beneficial to him.

For cycling as a whole though, I think every rider would need to post their values and there would need to be a considerable period of rapprochement (coupled with continued consumer uptake) for the sport to get healthy.
I like incendiaries! ;) The first thing is to take care of what goes in his body. He's going to want to know what's going in his mouth, where it came from, to have an idea of the chances it might be tainted (no more beef from Spain or pork from China;)). Then anything else like posting blood values, as you say, might be beneficial. If it were me, I'd post values if it wasn't too much trouble and the data was secure so it could not be tampered with. I wouldn't put my credit card number out there for everyone to see. Likewise, if the data could be tampered with I wouldn't put it out there either.
 
Oct 7, 2010
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Let me start off saying I am not a fanboy of anyone current, or really in the past, not enough to defend them to the bitter end. Maybe enough to argue a bit. That being said, and being from the US, the innocent to proven guilty aspect that we (those in the US) rely on legally is important. At this point, if Contador, and other similar positives are cleared, and you give benefit of the doubt to many of these athletes, I really believe at that point transparency for everyone is important.

Transparency from this era going forward is one way to help the situation. We are essentially seeing that a doping positive, no matter the blip on the radar immediately is judge, jury and executioner to any rider. That isn't exactly right, especially with so much food, supplement and other contamination's paired with more sensitive testing being brought on board. I personally couldn't even begin to imagine trying to have my food and supplements tested to be safe, the cost alone, and where to start is a bit mind boggling. Then when it comes to testing body fluids, you are doing targeted testing, you aren't always running every test possible, the time, energy and cost involved is far to much to run everything unless the resources are there. For some of these trace concentrations, a benchmark value needs to be stated for which a positive is triggered. With super sensitive testing, I would imagine, just based on drinking water alone, we have surprising elements in our very own bloodstream.

My last hematocrit was 44.7. I expect it to hit around 46 during race season in 2011. I could publish my other numbers, which would show I am a Thyroid cancer patient, and my hormones are off the charts out of compliance. Perhaps we can see evidence of other health factors with common blood tests, but without specific targeted testing for certain drugs, which is very expensive out of pocket, the level of transparency we seek, really won't mean much. Publishing blood values, thinking that is transparency might give all of us a false notion that someone is clean. If only there was a drug test with a test strip like you dunk into your pool water that gives readings, or one like a pregnancy test, but for EPO instead, and instead of it turning blue, it gives a frowny :( face when EPO is there.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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I've been suggesting it on his website for a couple of months - the last after Ricco said he's going to do it once his new website is up. When I was still blogging, I used to look at Basso's SRM data online, especially for the 2009 Giro. But I'm not sure how many people bothered to register to see his blood values. I think that for a lot of people, it was enough to know that Aldo Sassi and Mapei were watching blood volume or whatever to spot manipulation.

Some people will think Contador cheated no matter what, even if it had nothing to do with Clenbuterol. Some people will believe in him as a person and as a cyclist no matter what. People who aren't really into the sport but follow sports news will probably go with whatever the headlines say - "Contador found innocent" or whatever.

The blood values would probably only be useful if you have someone totally trustworthy to explain to the rest of us what it means. I kind of expect that people are into those as fans are more motivated to try to spot a cheater than to clear an innocent man. But posting them would be one show of good faith - just a part of winning back fans who've seen him run a gauntlet in the press for a few months.

Attending Saxo camp was a positive step. After a couple of months picturing him as a doper, people are seeing him on a bike with his new team, being almost carried off by a kite, etc. The brief statement from Andy Ramos (on his first day back from vacation) was another tiny step, getting the public to think of the case not as a guy trying to cheat to win, but comparing it to an injured tennis player French kissing a hot cocaine user at a South Beach club.

The L'Equipe story today about him possibly riding all three grand tours next year was another small but positive step. Some people will revisit the discussion about how well he might do, now with the knowledge of the courses for the Giro and Tour, and knowing the final compositions of teams. And since the UCI is more concerned with the image of the sport than anything else, I think the odds of them appealing a Spanish Federation decision go down if a guy who has won five grand tours, including two in one year, plans to ride all three.

The posting of blood values would be a sign of transparency. I think that the UCI should post not the data, but the fact that tests took place, for all riders. Make it so fans and journos can type in a name and see the dates a guy was tested, and whether it was just for the bio passport or actually looking for something. That way we can see if there were big gaps before a performance where something might have happened, or if he was tested so often there were no tracks to fall through.

The biggest thing for Alberto is to clear the first hurdle, soon, and for a lot of casual fans, the case would be considered closed. He could race while WADA decides what to do. And Alberto attacking on a climb in horrible weather during an early stage race would do a lot for the rest of us. If anyone made it to the end of this post, have a great day.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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For cycling as a whole though, I think every rider would need to post their values

I would rather an independent organization with no link to either the cyclist, his team or especially the UCI made his independently tested values publically available.

Otherwise what is to stop data fabrication as PR stunt?
 
theswordsman said:
since the UCI is more concerned with the image of the sport than anything else, I think the odds of them appealing a Spanish Federation decision go down if a guy who has won five grand tours, including two in one year, plans to ride all three.
I disagree with this point. The UCI has pretty much said it will appeal an "unfavourable" result, and IMO they would not have recommended a sanction if they did not believe he was guilty. Their consideration of the image of the sport (and not aiming towards a sanction) is something they were considering prior to sending this case to the Spanish Feds.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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thehog said:
Looks to me if Alberto is cleared he has a uphill battle with the public to believe him again.

What should he do? Post his blood vaules?
Quite simply - no, he shouldn't have to - if he is cleared he is innocent.
On top of that you will have the 'cycling industry' (UCI, journos, teams etc) happy to move on and not revisit it.

However what should be released are the full facts of the hearing. This will not be done by the RFEC but should be disclosed after a ruling by CAS, which it appears this case will end up.
 
A

Anonymous

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If cleared he should hire Don Caitlin, call a press conference, belittle his detractors in the audience of the conference, post his blood values one time then turn 180 degrees and fold the program declaring himself unsatisfied with public comments regarding wild fluctuations of his off score.

A recipie for success.
 
Mongol_Waaijer said:
For cycling as a whole though, I think every rider would need to post their values

I would rather an independent organization with no link to either the cyclist, his team or especially the UCI made his independently tested values publically available.

Otherwise what is to stop data fabrication as PR stunt?
Yes. Perhaps WADA is trustworthy enough. Applicable at ProTeam level, the programme could be part paid for by teams and the remainder by any user (journos, fans, etc) who wants to pay, say, €5 a year to get open online access (read-only, of course).

[Brief digression to explain this: personally I'd pay that €5 if only to examine and play around with the stats. If properly managed and independent, the programme could be seen as something with which to enfranchise fans, giving them a stake in the future of the sport. A sort of lottery in which everyone wins. ;) The fact that it would apply to ProTeam level only a) limits the expense and spread of info, b) scares any Conti teams who want to make the jump into staying clean and not winning too much against their PT peers while at that level, and c) provides an example to most fans and kids.]

Perhaps it's naive. But I guess what I'm saying is that, whilst the existence of the bio-passport and Basso's own endeavours may well warn us about current concerns over tampering, independence and effectiveness, it does nevertheless prove that the systematic collection, accretion and presentation of values is perhaps feasible.
 
Oct 7, 2010
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theswordsman said:
I've been suggesting it on his website for a couple of months - the last after Ricco said he's going to do it once his new website is up. When I was still blogging, I used to look at Basso's SRM data online, especially for the 2009 Giro. But I'm not sure how many people bothered to register to see his blood values. I think that for a lot of people, it was enough to know that Aldo Sassi and Mapei were watching blood volume or whatever to spot manipulation.

Some people will think Contador cheated no matter what, even if it had nothing to do with Clenbuterol. Some people will believe in him as a person and as a cyclist no matter what. People who aren't really into the sport but follow sports news will probably go with whatever the headlines say - "Contador found innocent" or whatever.

The blood values would probably only be useful if you have someone totally trustworthy to explain to the rest of us what it means. I kind of expect that people are into those as fans are more motivated to try to spot a cheater than to clear an innocent man. But posting them would be one show of good faith - just a part of winning back fans who've seen him run a gauntlet in the press for a few months.

Attending Saxo camp was a positive step. After a couple of months picturing him as a doper, people are seeing him on a bike with his new team, being almost carried off by a kite, etc. The brief statement from Andy Ramos (on his first day back from vacation) was another tiny step, getting the public to think of the case not as a guy trying to cheat to win, but comparing it to an injured tennis player French kissing a hot cocaine user at a South Beach club.

The L'Equipe story today about him possibly riding all three grand tours next year was another small but positive step. Some people will revisit the discussion about how well he might do, now with the knowledge of the courses for the Giro and Tour, and knowing the final compositions of teams. And since the UCI is more concerned with the image of the sport than anything else, I think the odds of them appealing a Spanish Federation decision go down if a guy who has won five grand tours, including two in one year, plans to ride all three.

The posting of blood values would be a sign of transparency. I think that the UCI should post not the data, but the fact that tests took place, for all riders. Make it so fans and journos can type in a name and see the dates a guy was tested, and whether it was just for the bio passport or actually looking for something. That way we can see if there were big gaps before a performance where something might have happened, or if he was tested so often there were no tracks to fall through.

The biggest thing for Alberto is to clear the first hurdle, soon, and for a lot of casual fans, the case would be considered closed. He could race while WADA decides what to do. And Alberto attacking on a climb in horrible weather during an early stage race would do a lot for the rest of us. If anyone made it to the end of this post, have a great day.
I like a few of your ideas. Adding on a bit to what you started. If there was a database of blood and testing date, and say there were gaps, a rider or team could submit their own testing data to fill in those holes. I believe a few teams like Garmin, and a few others have nearly weekly testing. If done by an accredited lab, perhaps that info can be directly uploaded so that there is transparency, and no fudging the numbers.

Perhaps too, with more data, corresponding power meter, and blood values, we can get a true indication of the talent level and expected performance from someone.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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thehog said:
Looks to me if Alberto is cleared he has a uphill battle with the public to believe him again.

What should he do? Post his blood vaules?
Believe him again? What is this "again" stuff?

Alberto was Booed on the TdF Podium this year fcol.
Well before he was busted for Clen...

Many stopped believing years ago.
Puerto. Verbier. Chasing down Klodi. Chasing down Vino. Wheelset jealousy.
Attacking during Andy's mechanical. Rasmussen gift. Finger bang bang.
Many Alberto haters. And the SSDD file for Alberto continues to grow & grow.

That said, I do NOT think the main problem will be the booing/mooing FANS.
It will be the fellow RIDERS in the peloton. He is not well liked. Not a patron by any stretch. Clean Young French riders have trashed Alberto. Important Saxo riders jumped ship when news of Alberto's signing surfaced.
Etc Etc Bang Bang.

Alberto will be a stain, a skidmark in the chamois of pro cycling.
Posting blood values would not help.
 
If he's successfully cleared from the case- I don't see any reason for him to make public his info-since the problem wans't involving the so called "abnormal blood values" issue-rather a matter of a banned substance found in urine.
now- If he wants to do it-we'll be delighted, but since he worked with Bruyneel & is aware of LA's case, he knows better that such information open to public scrutiny is liable & can backfire in the future if his performances start to accumulate doubts/ become too suspicious
 
May 24, 2010
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Polish said:
Alberto will be a stain, a skidmark in the chamois of pro cycling.
...are you sure there will be any room left on the Chamois of pro cycling for another skidmark once the Feds are done with the Uniballer???

Alberto Contador....Screwed over (allegedly) to take the heat of McQuaid and Armstrong!!
 
Oct 25, 2010
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No matter if the person is guilty of a crime, or unjustly accused, I would never encourage anyone to share their personal details in such a manner, lest they be twisted and manipulated and ultimately used against them. "But AC's a lying cheat" (some might say). My answer to that is that it could just as easily be used against someone who's never done anything wrong.

If I were ever accused of the kinds of things these riders get accused of, the attorney is the first person I'd call. I'd never say a thing.

Pelkey had a good article earlier this week over at Velonews regarding legal rights for those accused of doping. USADA quickly offers the accused a chance to incriminate themselves, taking advantage of what is likely to be their poor command of legal rights.

Never hold it against someone for lawyering-up. In today's "we'll totally F you with all of our weight" climate, you've just gotta protect yourself, even if innocent (especially if innocent).
 
Polish said:
Believe him again? What is this "again" stuff?

Alberto was Booed on the TdF Podium this year fcol.
Well before he was busted for Clen...

Many stopped believing years ago.
Puerto. Verbier. Chasing down Klodi. Chasing down Vino. Wheelset jealousy.
Attacking during Andy's mechanical. Rasmussen gift. Finger bang bang.
Many Alberto haters. And the SSDD file for Alberto continues to grow & grow.

That said, I do NOT think the main problem will be the booing/mooing FANS.
It will be the fellow RIDERS in the peloton. He is not well liked. Not a patron by any stretch. Clean Young French riders have trashed Alberto. Important Saxo riders jumped ship when news of Alberto's signing surfaced.
Etc Etc Bang Bang.

Alberto will be a stain, a skidmark in the chamois of pro cycling.
Posting blood values would not help.
Allow me to summarize your post: "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!":D
 
May 26, 2010
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Siriuscat said:
...are you sure there will be any room left on the Chamois of pro cycling for another skidmark once the Feds are done with the Uniballer???

Alberto Contador....Screwed over (allegedly) to take the heat of McQuaid and Armstrong!!
i believe Armstrong's chamois is enormous, but still there would not be enough room for Contador.
 
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