Il Lombardia 2015, Oct 4th

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

You do realise he was 1km away from pulling off an epic win in Liège, right?

So is Voeckler in Lombardia 2013, Caruso and Pozzovivo in Liege 2014, Roelandts in Ghent-Wevelgem this year, etc. It's a good ride, really good, but not more than that. He needs to win some classics to be considered great, his attack are not enough. Purito is much better, deal with that. Heck Iglinsky won that Liege in a great manner, but he's not considered classics great rider, Kreuziger won Amstel with great attack and even him doesn't top the list of great classics contenders. It's not enough, you need to perform and you need to perform constantly!

Please, those examples are just ridiculous and in no way comparable to that.

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

In a hard classic? No way. Both Purito's wins in Lombardia were not 'hard classics'.

Both in rain. 2012 was a hell. But it doesn't matter really

Nibali is a great GC rider. But not really special in classics. Purito is made for the classics. A true winner in the classics. So of course better.

Sure the rain made it a tough race, but when half the peloton arrives together at the foot of the final climb, I tend not to rate it as highly as some other races.

The time a small group of favorites arrive at the bottom of a climb, is long gone. Lombardia 2010 i remember, but that was because the weather was really atrocious.

Even in races like Montreal you need to have really bad conditions to not get a whole peloton at the bottom of the final climb.

This year's route has decent potential again.

 

[Velolover2]

How is the Pozzovivo example ridiculous, Flamin? I think you are cherry-picking.

First he attacks with 20k to go w. Arredondo and they hold a gap for a long time before getting caught. Then he attacks again with Caruso.

Nibali attacked later and got caught in the final k. Pozzovivo in the final like.. 200 metres?

 

[Brullnux]

Nibali has a great shot this year if he arrives in top form. There are not many people that can do better than him on such a course. Purito? Needs a steeper last climb for him to be absolute favorite. Valverde? he is too tired, he said so himself, otherwise ofc he would be a favorite. Rui Costa IMO could be a dark horse. Uran will be good too. could be too long and hard for the Yates Bros incorporated this year at just 21/22. Martin is probably crashing ATM. The top 5 will be similar to Firenze 2013.

In such a parcours then it is quite hard to say that Nibali is not a favourite. The one year wher he arrived in top shape for the classics he took 2 podiums in MSR and LBL. In Firenze he was the strongest rider and probably would have won if not for his crash.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

You do realise he was 1km away from pulling off an epic win in Liège, right?

So is Voeckler in Lombardia 2013, Caruso and Pozzovivo in Liege 2014, Roelandts in Ghent-Wevelgem this year, etc. It's a good ride, really good, but not more than that. He needs to win some classics to be considered great, his attack are not enough. Purito is much better, deal with that. Heck Iglinsky won that Liege in a great manner, but he's not considered classics great rider, Kreuziger won Amstel with great attack and even him doesn't top the list of great classics contenders. It's not enough, you need to perform and you need to perform constantly!

Please, those examples are just ridiculous and in no way comparable to that.

Those three rides are greater then Nibali's Liege in my book, only Nibali got better result. That should ring some bells concerning this Nibali/Purito story...

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

Nibali has a great shot this year if he arrives in top form. There are not many people that can do better than him on such a course. Purito? Needs a steeper last climb for him to be absolute favorite. Valverde? he is too tired, he said so himself, otherwise ofc he would be a favorite. Rui Costa IMO could be a dark horse. Uran will be good too. could be too long and hard for the Yates Bros incorporated this year at just 21/22. Martin is probably crashing ATM. The top 5 will be similar to Firenze 2013.

In such a parcours then it is quite hard to say that Nibali is not a favourite. The one year wher he arrived in top shape for the classics he took 2 podiums in MSR and LBL. In Firenze he was the strongest rider and probably would have won if not for his crash.

No he would have not won, and he was not the strongest either. Purito was the strongest, Rui Costa the smartest, Nibali...the most car paced , and Valverde..., well no comment

 

[Arredondo]

Re:

Nibali has a great shot this year if he arrives in top form. There are not many people that can do better than him on such a course. Purito? Needs a steeper last climb for him to be absolute favorite. Valverde? he is too tired, he said so himself, otherwise ofc he would be a favorite. Rui Costa IMO could be a dark horse. Uran will be good too. could be too long and hard for the Yates Bros incorporated this year at just 21/22. Martin is probably crashing ATM. The top 5 will be similar to Firenze 2013.

In such a parcours then it is quite hard to say that Nibali is not a favourite. The one year wher he arrived in top shape for the classics he took 2 podiums in MSR and LBL. In Firenze he was the strongest rider and probably would have won if not for his crash.

The only thing he was, was the best stayer that day. Still the most disgraceful thing in cycling the past years and he should be have been punished for that.

 

[Gigs_98]

I haven't read all comments about the Nibali vs. Purito discussion, but saying Nibali is as good in classics as Purito is ridiculous. Purito is just better on short steep climbs at the end of such a race, which is very helpful if you want to win most hilly classics. However Nibali still should be able to win a big classic one day. The Schleck bros both won one classic (LBL/AGR) although they can't TT as good as nibali and they their bike handling isnt as good as Nibali's. Btw, this years route could be very good for him and he should be more of less rested. If it rains he is maybe even my favorite.

 

[KyoGrey]

I think the only one-day race of similar characteristics to this Lombardia where the 2 of them arrived in similiar form was the 2013 World Championships.

Nibali was a step behind Purito that day, even with the help of the car.

I'm not counting Nibali out, but to say that he is a better classics rider is not true.

 

[Flamin]

Re:

How is the Pozzovivo example ridiculous, Flamin? I think you are cherry-picking.

First he attacks with 20k to go w. Arredondo and they hold a gap for a long time before getting caught. Then he attacks again with Caruso.

Nibali attacked later and got caught in the final k. Pozzovivo in the final like.. 200 metres?

It's totally different. The big boys didn't care about Pozzovivo. The peloton was still HUGE. Typical 2nd tier attack that doesn't stick 95% of the times. Good and smart move of course if you have no chance of winning when you wait for the last hill, but in nothing comparable to Nibali.

Nibali's move was very dangerous. Everybody knew that. Back in the day when Roche-aux-Faucons was a key point in the race. Gilbert and others tried to follow but couldn't.

 

[jaylew]

I haven't read all comments about the Nibali vs. Purito discussion, but saying Nibali is as good in classics as Purito is ridiculous.

You don't need to. Everybody but Flamin knows it's laughable. Not that I think Nibs has no shot but he just doesn't come close to Purito.

 

[greenedge]

Zaugg to have his end of season peak and destroy everyone.

Just saw the route and it looks very good, hopefully attacks can occur from 50 km's out.

 

[Jspear]

Re:

Zaugg to have his end of season peak and destroy everyone.

Just saw the route and it looks very good, hopefully attacks can occur from 50 km's out.

That's an interesting pick.

I'd like to see Nibbes win but I don't think it'll happen....lady luck won't allow it.

 

[Bushman]

Flamin, your arguments are all over the place. First of all you are using the Firenze WC as an example of Nibali's superior ability but he was beaten by Purito there.
Then Lombardia 12' and 13' wasn't tough enough to be considered a 'hard' classic but on the other hand Nibali's podium in MSR is a perfect example of his ability in tough classics? Doesn't make sense.

If you look at this case objectively there really is no way one could argue that Nibali is a superior classics rider to Purito.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Flamin, your arguments are all over the place. First of all you are using the Firenze WC as an example of Nibali's superior ability but he was beaten by Purito there.
Then Lombardia 12' and 13' wasn't tough enough to be considered a 'hard' classic but on the other hand Nibali's podium in MSR is a perfect example of his ability in tough classics? Doesn't make sense.

If you look at this case objectively there really is no way one could argument that Nibali is a superior classics rider to Purito.

Of course Purito is a better classics rider. But will he be better in this classic? I think looking at both riders' capabilities then it will be close. Purito usually needs a steeper ramp to win and he is not the type to attack 40km out, more of a last climb Murito. Nibali suits this race very well this year, but his form is unknown

 

[Velolover2]

Re:

If you look at this case objectively there really is no way one could argument that Nibali is a superior classics rider to Purito.

It's everyone against Flamin'. This guy has to be trolling.

 

[Flamin]

Re:

Flamin, your arguments are all over the place. First of all you are using the Firenze WC as an example of Nibali's superior ability but he was beaten by Purito there.
Then Lombardia 12' and 13' wasn't tough enough to be considered a 'hard' classic but on the other hand Nibali's podium in MSR is a perfect example of his ability in tough classics? Doesn't make sense.

If you look at this case objectively there really is no way one could argument that Nibali is a superior classics rider to Purito.

I didn't. Maybe you should start reading first:

At least 5 riders are better then Nibali in such a hard classic. Purito and Valverde miles ahead for example.

This is what I was reacting to, 'Purito being miles ahead of Nibali'. He's not.

 

[SafeBet]

Everything started from my comment, which definately wasn't about who the best classic rider is.

I simply stated that on this parcours (which is something we haven't seen in a Monument for at least 5 years) and in bad weather conditions, Nibali is my number one favorite if in top shape. Purito comes right after him. I'd probably rate him higher if I hadn't seen him fade in the Vuelta.

 

[Bushman]

Re: Re:

Flamin, your arguments are all over the place. First of all you are using the Firenze WC as an example of Nibali's superior ability but he was beaten by Purito there.
Then Lombardia 12' and 13' wasn't tough enough to be considered a 'hard' classic but on the other hand Nibali's podium in MSR is a perfect example of his ability in tough classics? Doesn't make sense.

If you look at this case objectively there really is no way one could argument that Nibali is a superior classics rider to Purito.

I didn't. Maybe you should start reading first:

At least 5 riders are better then Nibali in such a hard classic. Purito and Valverde miles ahead for example.

This is what I was reacting to, 'Purito being miles ahead of Nibali'. He's not.

Well, maybe you didn't explicitly write that Nibali is better than Purito but how is this

Even if he didn't win any of them, I still rate it at least as high as what Purito has done.

To be understood if it doesn't mean that Nibali is at least as good as Purito?

 

[Flamin]

On a hard parcours? Yes, I'd say they're pretty equal which I backed up with examples. I've yet to hear a valid example of why Purito is supposedly clearly better though.

 

[Arredondo]

Re:

On a hard parcours? Yes, I'd say they're pretty equal which I backed up with examples. I've yet to hear a valid example of why Purito is supposedly clearly better though.

Because he wins.

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

On a hard parcours? Yes, I'd say they're pretty equal which I backed up with examples. I've yet to hear a valid example of why Purito is supposedly clearly better though.

Because he wins.

On such parcours, yes.

Talking about winning, Nibali is also less focused on the classics, you know, because he can win GT's, unlike some

 

[Sasquatch]

Re:

Newcorners like Alaphilippe and Adam Yates also have a better chance of winning it.

I'm starting to think Yates should be a high contender for it. Not doing the World's unless he is a replacement will have him prepared well. Although it might be a year or two early for him.

 

[Velolover2]

Re: Re:

Newcorners like Alaphilippe and Adam Yates also have a better chance of winning it.

I'm starting to think Yates should be a high contender for it. Not doing the World's unless he is a replacement will have him prepared well. Although it might be a year or two early for him.

If they are too stupid to consider him a threat, he'll win.

The young riders chances (except for Alaphilippe who can rely on his sprint) is going early.

 

[Sasquatch]

Re: Re:

Newcorners like Alaphilippe and Adam Yates also have a better chance of winning it.

I'm starting to think Yates should be a high contender for it. Not doing the World's unless he is a replacement will have him prepared well. Although it might be a year or two early for him.

If they are too stupid to consider him a threat, he'll win.

The young riders chances (except for Alaphilippe who can rely on his sprint) is going early.

Yeah, there's no doubt if Yates wins it's a solo effort like Martin did last year. He's not afraid to attack early either so I expect him to attack earlier.