Impey cooked

[RobbieCanuck]

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol56/rushall5.htm

Found this really interested article, if there is a small trace of Probenecid in sample would suggest it was error as would need a large dose to be used as masking agent.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out but should be clear if blatant doping or genuine error

I read the article. Once again it reveals the weakness in transparency of NADAs because we do not know the quantity of probenecid in Impey's samples.

According to the 2014 WADA Prohibited List, probenecid in the sample (in this case an urine sample) to any amount is prohibited. It is not a threshold drug. However the article you refer to in discussing the rationale by the IOC to make probenecid prohibited (presumably the same rationale as WADA), says,

"Probenecid is used: ... (3) with certain kinds of antibiotics to increase their levels in the blood and make them more effective in the treatment of infections. It is this latter role that has caused it to be banned by the IOC because it "could" cause retention of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs and make them undetectable. With the most recent highly sensitive testing devices Probenecid has not been demonstrated to be totally effective in retaining all traces of banned substances."

What this tells us is at low levels of probenecid there is no performance enhancing drug to mask. It appears to be the case, that if the sample contains a large amount of probenecid, then the rationale for banning it as a masking agent is a good one. The article goes on to say,

"It has to be taken in large amounts (2-5 grams) to stop detection of banned substances such as steroids. The large dose would virtually block any excretion for a short time (a number of hours)."

Therefore an amount of probenecid of say 1 gm or less would not be masking a PED. But because we do not know the amount in Impey's case we are left to speculate.

This gets us back to the argument that certain drugs need threshold levels so the athlete is not being suspended for the mere presence of a drug such as the clenbuterol in AC's case where the minute amount had no performance enhancing benefit.

It would be a shame to suspend Impey if the amount was not sufficient to mask a PED, that did not exist in his system. But again we the fans are left in doubt and end up with useless and endless speculation in the Clinic.

On the other hand if the amount of probenecid needed to mask a PED is there, then I would have to agree with those who say he was stupid and he deserves any suspension he gets.

Why a NADA cannot reveal the amount to the public is beyond me. It would only add to their credibility and remove a lot of nonsensical speculation.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

As per usual some people are missing the wood for the trees.

1. Why is it even in his system? No TUE and not declared on his doping test form?

2. Drugs have half lives. Just because there's not much in the test sample does not mean there was not sufficient for masking / performance enhancement a couple of hours before the test was conducted.

 

[keeponrollin]

As per usual some people are missing the wood for the trees.

1. Why is it even in his system? No TUE and not declared on his doping test form?

2. Drugs have half lives. Just because there's not much in the test sample does not mean there was not sufficient for masking / performance enhancement a couple of hours before the test was conducted.

he obviously ate a steak from a cow that suffered terribly from gout, & died in the previous 4 hours. Not really that unlikely is it

 

[proffate]

this occurred to me as well.
but then why mask anything in the first place?

well, why take this in the first place if it's easy to detect? A masking agent shouldn't make it easier to catch you... inrng claims that it helps keep steroids in your system for longer (as opposed to ****ing them out) so maybe that's the purpose rather than masking.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

he obviously ate a steak from a cow that suffered terribly from gout, & died in the previous 4 hours. Not really that unlikely is it

Damnit. I always miss the obvious. Well played, sir. Touche!

 

[neineinei]

http://www.darylimpey.com/News/DisplayNewsItem.aspx?niid=34129

He won the ITT the 6th and came second in the road race the 9th, and was tested both days. But he was also tested the 8th, when he wasn't racing.

Maybe he was targeted? In 2013 SAIDS retested samples from cyclists and found some to be suspicious, but not positive, for EPO.

http://www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/Cycling/Beware-of-SAIDS-cycling-cheats-20130304

 

[RobbieCanuck]

As per usual some people are missing the wood for the trees.

1. Why is it even in his system? No TUE and not declared on his doping test form?

He says he has no knowledge of why it was found in his system, because he did not knowingly take any probenecid. If he really did not know he took it he would not declare it on his doping test form.

His explanation sounds pretty lame, so until we know more facts we don't know why it was in his system other than to assume as a masking agent, not because it was an effective masking agent, but because probenecid is an absolute liability drug (no threshold), therefore any amount is sanctionable.

But without knowledge of the quantity of probencid we have no facts to go by, other than there was probenecid in his system. In order for Impey to challenge its use as a masking agent we need to know the amount. In the end the amount may be irrelevant but there are a lot of prohibited drugs whose effectiveness as PEDs or masking agents really require a threshold amount.

2. Drugs have half lives. Just because there's not much in the test sample does not mean there was not sufficient for masking / performance enhancement a couple of hours before the test was conducted.

We don't know the quantity of the test samples! According to the article referenced by Tommy2cans @

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol56/rushall5.htm,

the amount would have to be at least 2 grams or more, regardless of 1/2 life to be an effective masking agent. You may want to read the article.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

One of the things that always has amused me about Impey is that fans took to singing the South African folk song, "Impi," in his honor. It is quite a stirring tune.

Except that it's a song celebrating the slaughter of an English army.

'Impi' is the Zulu word for a large military formation, essentially a regiment, or a small army. The song's lyrics commemorate the slaughter of Lord Chelmsford's column by a Zulu army at the Battle of Isandhlwana.


In light of recent developments, perhaps the fans unknowingly weren't exhorting Impey, but putting a spell on him.

 

[mewmewmew13]

One of the things that always has amused me about Impey is that fans took to singing the South African folk song, "Impi," in his honor. It is quite a stirring tune.

Except that it's a song celebrating the slaughter of an English army.

'Impi' is the Zulu word for a large military formation, essentially a regiment, or a small army. The song's lyrics commemorate the slaughter of Lord Chelmsford's column by a Zulu army at the Battle of Isandhlwana.


In light of recent developments, perhaps the fans unknowingly weren't exhorting Impey, but putting a spell on him.

wonderful!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Keep in mind it is unethical for a doctor to recommend to a rider s/he use PEDs, meaning the doctor can be disciplined by the medical association and no doc wants that.

Robbie, I mean this in the nicest way, that thing where you think sketchy doctors actually give a damn is very charming, but not connected to reality.

Go back in time a bit to Dr. Fuentes who stated with confidence that being an elite athlete is not healthy. He explains what he did was make riders healthier. He's still probably running most of the doping for Spain's elite athletes who dope because he's making them healthier. There are many more.

We had maybe Anthony Galea the lone doctor (is he even an MD?) see any bit of trouble regarding doping and that's mostly because he was crossing borders.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...His explanation was lame,

Fixed that for you. "I was cleans two days later.... Must be something wrong with the test." is not an explanation.

we don't know why it was in his system other than to assume as a masking agent, not because it was an effective masking agent, but because probenecid is an absolute liability drug (no threshold), therefore any amount is sanctionable.

Did he fall on the pills just lying on the ground? Did he find them mixed in with his vitamins? Roommate have gout? One Idiot Masters Fattie actually tried the "there was some dust that I got popped for at the bottom of a legal supplements bottle. I must have ingested some accidentally..."

"Easy" to detect and an air tight case from WADA's side. Buh bye Mr. Impey! See you in 24 months. Another IQ test failure.

Again, whomever was the anti doping authority deserves some credit for doing the right thing regardless of the fact Impey had a WT contract.

 

[yespatterns]

Without more data points, all this is conjecture. That being said, sounds like masking. When will levels be released?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Robbie, I mean this in the nicest way, that thing where you think sketchy doctors actually give a damn is very charming, but not connected to reality.

Go back in time a bit to Dr. Fuentes who stated with confidence that being an elite athlete is not healthy. He explains what he did was make riders healthier. He's still probably running most of the doping for Spain's elite athletes who dope because he's making them healthier. There are many more.

We had maybe Anthony Galea the lone doctor (is he even an MD?) see any bit of trouble regarding doping and that's mostly because he was crossing borders.

Yeah, I hear you DW. It's just I find it hard to accept, in Canada in any event (Galea excepted) that any sports doctor is going to ruin his career by recommending PEDs to any professional athlete. Galea of course was tapped into some of the top North American professional athletes. But even Galea came close to losing his license and going to jail. I doubt he would proscribe PEDs today.

I know a fair number of athletic type doctors who bike, run, cross country ski etc. especially in my area of Canada known for its outdoor recreation. A lot of NHL hockey players have off season residences in the Okanagan Valley, and elsewhere in BC. Many of these guys become doctors for hockey teams, x-cty ski teams, cyclists or are go to guys for sports injuries etc., but I cannot think of one who would jeopardize their careers over PEDs.

I think Fuentes made a conscious decision to get rich accommodating professional athletes because he thought he could get away with it in Europe where the doping culture is (was) more tolerant as it is in North America. I view him as the exception to the rule.

But I cannot see in Canada at least the doctor(s) to the Canadian National Cycling Team for example, recommending PEDs at the risk of their careers. As you may know the Commonwealth Games are coming up in Glasgow and Canadian cyclists will be competing with all the Brits, Aussies, NZs, South Africans etc. Any doc who would ruin his lifetime career for some 5 year career cyclist would be crazy.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Fixed that for you. "I was cleans two days later.... Must be something wrong with the test." is not an explanation.



Did he fall on the pills just lying on the ground? Did he find them mixed in with his vitamins? Roommate have gout? One Idiot Masters Fattie actually tried the "there was some dust that I got popped for at the bottom of a legal supplements bottle. I must have ingested some accidentally..."

"Easy" to detect and an air tight case from WADA's side. Buh bye Mr. Impey! See you in 24 months. Another IQ test failure.

Again, whomever was the anti doping authority deserves some credit for doing the right thing regardless of the fact Impey had a WT contract.

DW, I am with you but you cannot take the former defence lawyer out of me. IF probenecid is not an effective masking agent at 1 gram or less, and Impey had 1 gram or less, which we don't know because the NADA has not told us, then they should have found a PED, as opposed to a masking agent.

I feel a lot of riders get railroaded where there is absolute liability i.e. no thresh-hold where under a certain amount a violation is not scientifically possible. The science seems to say if Impey had more than 1 gram then yes it is an effective masking agent and throw the book at him. But I am one of those people who says "Show me the evidence" so I can be sure.

 

[argyllflyer]

But I am one of those people who says "Show me the evidence" so I can be sure.

Would this be your approach if this was Froome?

 

[rata de sentina]

4.5-4.9 hours half life for probenecid.

2 hours from TT end to sample being taken.

1 hour TT.

Interesting timeline.

It's a half life.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I think Fuentes made a conscious decision to get rich accommodating professional athletes because he thought he could get away with it in Europe where the doping culture is (was) more tolerant as it is in North America.

Is (was) it?

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Fuentes narrowly escaped serving a jail sentence. It's not about ethics, it's about the risk of being caught. There's no way a UK-registered doctor could escape a doping scandal with their reputation and career intact.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Is (was) it?

Yeah. My read has always been that in Europe (Spain, Italy, France, Netherlands, Germany, Czech R., Russia etc.) the idea of doping became the accepted norm, rather than the exception so that it became tolerated and thus the so-called culture of doping was well established. From what I can tell, it started in the late 60s with amphetamines and progressively got worse until at least 2005.

When France made doping a criminal offence under their Criminal Code, then French riders sat up a took notice and the peloton abandoned France for Monaco, Spain, Dubai etc.

North American cyclists bought into the culture in a big way from the early 90s to at least 2010. But I have always felt in North America, more people were less tolerant of doping. That is why, in part, there were so many Lance fanboys because people could just not accept he would dope.

Has it changed since Fuentes, Ferrari et al? I don't know for sure. I always thought that Ferrari was so into the science and the money and that he felt cyclists were merely has cash paying lab rats, because he did not seem like a cycling fan or he could care less which of his rats won the race, just that he could show them the methods of getting around the tests and when it was best to take PEDs etc.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

DW, I am with you but you cannot take the former defence lawyer out of me. IF probenecid is not an effective masking agent at 1 gram or less, and Impey had 1 gram or less, which we don't know because the NADA has not told us, then they should have found a PED, as opposed to a masking agent.

I feel a lot of riders get railroaded where there is absolute liability i.e. no thresh-hold where under a certain amount a violation is not scientifically possible. The science seems to say if Impey had more than 1 gram then yes it is an effective masking agent and throw the book at him. But I am one of those people who says "Show me the evidence" so I can be sure.

Can you provide some plausible explanations of how probenecid can get into your system without your knowledge.

Keep in mind that Impey made no indication about any supplements or medication noted at time of test, which lessens the contaminated supplement angle somewhat.


As for the testing detection level, why does the level have to indicate effectiveness at the time the test is conducted? Drugs dissipate over time and may well have been effective earlier.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's a half life.

That's what I wrote. Care to elaborate?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

North American cyclists bought into the culture in a big way from the early 90s to at least 2010. But I have always felt in North America, more people were less tolerant of doping. That is why, in part, there were so many Lance fanboys because people could just not accept he would dope.

Dr Wade Exum paints a different picture of the US and in particular the USOC.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Dr Wade Exum paints a different picture of the US and in particular the USOC.

How so? Give us some facts, not headlines.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

How so? Give us some facts, not headlines.

Is this the same RobbieCanuck who wrote,

Next time do your own heavy lifting in searching out the information.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Maybe it is in the cattle?

This study investigated whether the illegal application of ethinylestradiol or clenbuterol in cattle as growth promotors may be concealed by co-treatment with drugs that affect urinary excretion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9764211

Ironically it wasn't all that good as masking clenbuterol, but had potential for masking use of ethinyl estradiol in cattle.