In Blood Stepped: The History Of Blood Doping In Sport

[Tienus]

So now we've gone from the eve of the 73 Worlds to the middle of the 75 Tour?

Chevrolet was quoting an anekdote from Frans Schoonderwalt. Apart from the date and place the story is similar.
Peter Ouwerkerk is claiming he witnessed it himself.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I did a bit of research on the Gimondi story. Looks like Peter Ouwerkerk was one of the journalist who witnessed the transfusion. It happened during the tour of 1975 in a hotel in Merlin Plage.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=gimondi+merlin-plage&page=2&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010958820%3Ampeg21%3Aa0184&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010958820%3Ampeg21%3Aa0184
Ouwerkerk wrote this article about the career of Gimondi. The article starts with Dutch journalists knocking at the room door and Gimondi gets angry with them. Gimondi later comes down and talks to the journalists. According to the article Gimondi is angry because he thinks the journalists are fans hunting for souvenirs. Allmost ten years later Ouwerkerk writes what really happened that day.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=zoetemelk+bloed&page=8&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010961920%3Ampeg21%3Aa0344&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010961920%3Ampeg21%3Aa0344"
Who walked into the room of a rider risked upsetting the rider because he was having a transfusion. We remember Felice Gimondi, tour 1975, Merlin-Plage

great find.
especially that last sentence.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

In 1979 Zoetemelk is caught for nortestosteron, it was prescribed by Fucs.

The years in which Joop Zoetemelk did not fail a dope test seem more rare than the years in which he did.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

So now we've gone from the eve of the 73 Worlds to the middle of the 75 Tour?

Chevrolet was quoting an anekdote from Frans Schoonderwalt. Apart from the date and place the story is similar.
Peter Ouwerkerk is claiming he witnessed it himself.

Yes, but given experience, given the mangling of the Nencini story, such drifts in the telling become, well, telling. I am not dismissing it out of hand and am looking into it myself, but the more it begins to smell of BS the more I'm inclined to think of the roses.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

It happened during the tour of 1975 in a hotel in Merlin Plage.

So now we've gone from the eve of the 73 Worlds to the middle of the 75 Tour?

remind's of Floyd's emails. He got the dates all wrong.
Ergo he must have been making all that stuff up.

The Worlds and the Tour are quite different beasts. That's not just confusion over dates.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

It happened during the tour of 1975 in a hotel in Merlin Plage.

So now we've gone from the eve of the 73 Worlds to the middle of the 75 Tour?

remind's of Floyd's emails. He got the dates all wrong.
Ergo he must have been making all that stuff up.

The Worlds and the Tour are quite different beasts. That's not just confusion over dates.

true, it makes the story even better.

So how many do we have now as possible blood boosters during GTs in the 70s?
Is this list correct?
Gimondi (probable), Zoetemelk (very probable), Anquetil(possible), Merckx(possible).

 

[Tienus]

The years in which Joop Zoetemelk did not fail a dope test seem more rare than the years in which he did.

I know.
I pointed out some facts to show that Zoetemelk did not accidently stumble upon a doctor who decided to give him a transfusion. The comparison to Rolink, which whom Zoetemelk worked before, is allready made in the article in 76. Then there is the fact that Fucs was a team doctor which links him directly to the winner of the 76 tour, Lucien van Impe.

 

[sniper]

Re:

The years in which Joop Zoetemelk did not fail a dope test seem more rare than the years in which he did.

I know.
I pointed out some facts to show that Zoetemelk did not accidently stumble upon a doctor who decided to give him a transfusion. The comparison to Rolink, which whom Zoetemelk worked before, is allready made in the article in 76. Then there is the fact that Fucs was a team doctor which links him directly to the winner of the 76 tour, Lucien van Impe.

brilliant find.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Gimondi (probable), Zoetemelk (very probable), Anquetil(possible), Merckx(possible).

That you consider Anquetil a "possible" for blood manipulation in a GT in the 1970s speaks volumes. And Zoetemelk is not "very probable": he's the only definite we have.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

It happened during the tour of 1975 in a hotel in Merlin Plage.

This would put it at the end of stage five, ahead of the stage six ITT, 16km around Merlin Plage? Or at the start of stage six, ahead of the ITT? Or at the end of stage 6, after the ITT and ahead of stage 9b's 37km ITT in Auch?

Stage 6
Circuit Merlin Plage, 16 km ITT
1. Eddy Merckx en 19'33" (Moy : 49.104 km/h)
2. Hézard à 27"
3. Knudsen à 30"
4. Moser à 33"
5. Danguillaume à 45"
6. Thévenet à 52"
7. Ocana à 53"
8. Kuiper à 56"
9. Pollentier à 57"
10. Knetemann à 58"
11. Ritter à 59"
12. Hoban à 1'05"
13. Priem à 1'07"
14. Poulidor
15. Karstens à 1'10"
16. Mathis
17. Agostinho à 1'13"
18. Den Hertog à 1'14"
19. Gimondi

Stage 9b
Fleurance-Auch, 37.4 km ITT
1. Eddy Merckx en 49'42" (Moy : 45.140 km/h)
2. Thévenet à 9"
3. Knudsen à 13"
4. Gimondi à 44"
5. Hézard à 47"
6. Ocana à 1'06"
7. Moser à 1'08"
8. Pollentier à 1'16"
9. Danguillaume à 1'20"
10. Zoetemelk à 1'40"

1975 was Gimondi's second worst Tour, IIRC.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Gimondi (probable), Zoetemelk (very probable), Anquetil(possible), Merckx(possible).

That you consider Anquetil a "possible" for blood manipulation in a GT in the 1970s speaks volumes. And Zoetemelk is not "very probable": he's the only definite we have.

yes I meant thevenet thank you. Adding van impe as a possible.

Anyway,
This isnt the whole story of blooddoping in the 70s just yet, it seems

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Taking the second link first.

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=zoetemelk+bloed&page=8&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010961920%3Ampeg21%3Aa0344&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010961920%3Ampeg21%3Aa0344"
Who walked into the room of a rider risked upsetting the rider because he was having a transfusion. We remember Felice Gimondi, tour 1975, Merlin-Plage

Here's what the downloaded text actually says:

En wie wel eens onaangekondigd, of per abuis een kamer van een andere willekeurige Tourrenner binnenstapte, liep de kans daar hartgrondig van teworden afgevloekt. Omdat men op dat moment juist met een transfusie bezig was, en geen pottenkijkers beliefde. We herinneren Felice Gimondi, Tour 1975, Merlin-Plage.

Mangle that into gnomish yourselves.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Gimondi (probable), Zoetemelk (very probable), Anquetil(possible), Merckx(possible).

That you consider Anquetil a "possible" for blood manipulation in a GT in the 1970s speaks volumes. And Zoetemelk is not "very probable": he's the only definite we have.

yes I meant thevenet thank you. Adding van impe as a possible.

And Agostinho? And Aimar? And Aja? And Alaimo? And Armani? And Basso? And Battaglin? And Bellini? And Bellouis? And Bernaudeau? And Bertoglio? And Bittinger? And Bossis? And Boulas? And Bracke? And Bruyère? And Campaner? And Catieau? And Caverzasi? And Chappe? And Criquiélion? And Danguillaume? And David? And de Vlaeminck? And de Witte? And Delcroix? And Delépine? And Delisle? And Demeyer? And den Hertog? And Duyndam? And Esclassan? And Fey? And Frey? And Fuchs? And Fuente? And Galdós? And Genêt? And Ghisellini? And Gimondi? And Godefroot? And González Linares? And Gualazzini? And Guerra? And Guimard? And Hézard? And Hinault? And Hoban? And Hochart? And Hogerheide? And Houbrechts? And Huysmans? And Jacobs? And Janssen? And Janssens? And Karstens? And Kelly? And Knetemann? And Krekels? And Kuiper? And Labourdette? And Lasa? And Laurent? And Legeay? And Leman? And López Carril? And Loysch? And Lubberding? And Maas? And Maertens? And Martinez? And Martínez Heredia? And Mathis? And Meslet? And Mintkiewicz? And Molinéris? And Mori? And Mortensen? And Moser? And Nassen? And Nazabal? And Ocaña? And Ovion? And Panizza? And Parecchini? And Parsani? And Périn? And Perret? And Perurena? And Pettersson? And Pingeon? And Pintens? And Planckaert? And Pollentier? And Poppe? And Poulidor? And Priem? And Pronk? And Pustjens? And Quilfen? And Raas? And Raymond? And Riccomi? And Rottiers? And Santambrogio? And Santy? And Schönbacher? And Sercu? And Seznec? And Simonetti? And Smit? And Spruyt? And Teirlinck? And Tesnière? And Thaler? And Thurau? And Tierlinck? And Tollet? And Torres? And vacated? And Van den Bossche? And van den Hoek? And van Impe? And van Linden? And van Springel? And van Vlierberghe? And van Vliet? And Vasseur? And Verstraeten? And Vianen? And Viejo? And Villemiane? And Wagtmans? And Wellens? And Wolfshohl? And Wright? And Zilioli? And Zubero?

 

[Tienus]

Dont know exactly when it happened, I just found these articles. The writer is still a journalist. https://nl.linkedin.com/in/peter-ouwerkerk-2b420492

1975 was Gimondi's second worst Tour, IIRC.

It was his last one towards the end of his career. Stage 10 of that tour was his only victory in 1975.

 

[Tienus]

Mangle that into gnomish yourselves.

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Gimondi (probable), Zoetemelk (very probable), Anquetil(possible), Merckx(possible).

That you consider Anquetil a "possible" for blood manipulation in a GT in the 1970s speaks volumes. And Zoetemelk is not "very probable": he's the only definite we have.

yes I meant thevenet thank you. Adding van impe as a possible.

And Agostinho? And Aimar? And Aja? And Alaimo? And Armani? And Basso? And Battaglin? And Bellini? And Bellouis? And Bernaudeau? And Bertoglio? And Bittinger? And Bossis? And Boulas? And Bracke? And Bruyère? And Campaner? And Catieau? And Caverzasi? And Chappe? And Criquiélion? And Danguillaume? And David? And de Vlaeminck? And de Witte? And Delcroix? And Delépine? And Delisle? And Demeyer? And den Hertog? And Duyndam? And Esclassan? And Fey? And Frey? And Fuchs? And Fuente? And Galdós? And Genêt? And Ghisellini? And Gimondi? And Godefroot? And González Linares? And Gualazzini? And Guerra? And Guimard? And Hézard? And Hinault? And Hoban? And Hochart? And Hogerheide? And Houbrechts? And Huysmans? And Jacobs? And Janssen? And Janssens? And Karstens? And Kelly? And Knetemann? And Krekels? And Kuiper? And Labourdette? And Lasa? And Laurent? And Legeay? And Leman? And López Carril? And Loysch? And Lubberding? And Maas? And Maertens? And Martinez? And Martínez Heredia? And Mathis? And Meslet? And Mintkiewicz? And Molinéris? And Mori? And Mortensen? And Moser? And Nassen? And Nazabal? And Ocaña? And Ovion? And Panizza? And Parecchini? And Parsani? And Périn? And Perret? And Perurena? And Pettersson? And Pingeon? And Pintens? And Planckaert? And Pollentier? And Poppe? And Poulidor? And Priem? And Pronk? And Pustjens? And Quilfen? And Raas? And Raymond? And Riccomi? And Rottiers? And Santambrogio? And Santy? And Schönbacher? And Sercu? And Seznec? And Simonetti? And Smit? And Spruyt? And Teirlinck? And Tesnière? And Thaler? And Thurau? And Tierlinck? And Tollet? And Torres? And vacated? And Van den Bossche? And van den Hoek? And van Impe? And van Linden? And van Springel? And van Vlierberghe? And van Vliet? And Vasseur? And Verstraeten? And Vianen? And Viejo? And Villemiane? And Wagtmans? And Wellens? And Wolfshohl? And Wright? And Zilioli? And Zubero?

I don't know.
Do you have anything on them?

Seems I should've added a behind van Impe.
You seem so tense. Lighten up a little.

Anyhow, afaict, and fwiw, it's more concise than the original quote, but in principal there's nothing wrong with Tienus' translation.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Dont know exactly when it happened, I just found these articles. The writer is still a journalist. https://nl.linkedin.com/in/peter-ouwerkerk-2b420492

Was Ouwerkerk first in the door or second, behind Van Schoonderwalt? They would have had what, one, two, three seconds to take in the contents of the room? Which of them was the one capable of identifying at what, five meters?, with Gimondi shouting at them, the contents of the IV, capable of being sure that it was blood and not something else? How do we know it is the 1973 story is wrong, that has a quote from Van Schoonderwalt in it, why can't the 1975 story be the one that's got the dates and place mixed up? Why did Gimondi shout, journalists seeing riders with IVs in their arm was not unusual, there's plenty enough pictures of riders with IVs in their arm, and blood was not illegal in 1973, there wasn't even any moral outcry? I would dearly love to believe this story - dearly, so much so I'm actively trying to find out the truth of it - but right now, what's been presented here, it is poorly sourced. It started poorly sourced (an anecdote in a book of no known provenance), became contradictory (1973 Words, 1975 Tour) and has many, many questions unanswered, some of which are essential to decide how likely it is to be believable.

 

[fmk_RoI]

From elsewhere

When considering who brought what methods where and when, it is very flawed to think the 1970s as an information technology stone age, where the flow of information was practically nonexistent, and subsequently blood doping/hormone knowledge was somehow very secretive. While there were some underground studies, as seen below, almost all the relevant blood doping material was published in peer-reviewed journals and in more popular publications.

This I think is important - like blaming Conconi for EPO, the idea of the knowledge being limited is wrong, it was out there.

The practice though, some clearly had that better than others, no? Doping in general, you've got some people who were very good at what they did, but you've also got a lot of chancers,

Within the Soviet set up, there wasn't always a freeflow of information among the USSR states and their satellites. The East Germans could be secretive, even when it came to Moscow. So I don't think you can look at the Communist countries and imagine they all had the same skill sets as each other when it came to blood boosting.

For the Western states, the Scandinavian countries were the best place to learn, yes? Then the power seems to shift to Italy. Is there a particular link between Italy and the Scandinavians* (I was told once before there was, even given a name, but no longer have it) or is it just a question of the pendulum swinging?

* I'm trying not to offend any Finns or Swedes reading this and thinking I'm siding with the other over them, hence Scandinavia. As for the rest of Scandinavia - I'm sure you were very good at this too.

 

[Aragon]

Re:

This I think is important - like blaming Conconi for EPO, the idea of the knowledge being limited is wrong, it was out there.

The practice though, some clearly had that better than others, no? Doping in general, you've got some people who were very good at what they did, but you've also got a lot of chancers,

Within the Soviet set up, there wasn't always a freeflow of information among the USSR states and their satellites. The East Germans could be secretive, even when it came to Moscow. So I don't think you can look at the Communist countries and imagine they all had the same skill sets as each other when it came to blood boosting.

For the Western states, the Scandinavian countries were the best place to learn, yes? Then the power seems to shift to Italy. Is there a particular link between Italy and the Scandinavians* (I was told once before there was, even given a name, but no longer have it) or is it just a question of the pendulum swinging?

* I'm trying not to offend any Finns or Swedes reading this and thinking I'm siding with the other over them, hence Scandinavia. As for the rest of Scandinavia - I'm sure you were very good at this too.

There are some links between Italy and Scandinavia. For instance, famous Italian exercise physiologist Carmelo Bosco studied in Finland and wrote his doctoral thesis there (or more accurately "here") in 1975, I think. It is claimed that he tipped off his fellow Italians about the blood doping program that was going on in the country, a claim made by coach Renato Canova for instance..

According to Alessandro Donati, Francesco Conconi himself told that he had adopted the Finnish blood doping method but made some improvements into it. I've gone through a bootleg PDF-copy of Sandro Donati's book Campioni Senza Valore(1989), and have a recollection that he doesn't make the claim about Finnish origins at all about the Italian program.

As an interesting anecdote, the Italian crosscountry skiing team had two different Finnish head coaches for the whole 1980s (Viljo Sadeharju [1981-1984], Jarmo Punkkinen [1984-1989]) and the team utilized autotransfusions until 1988. While some people find there a suspicious geographical connection, Conconi started his autotransfusion experiments already in 1979, there so is most likely no connection there.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Again, from elsewhere:

In earlier posts, I've taken material heavily from the Daniel Friebe's Merckx-biography, but here is still another interesting and relevant anecdote from the book:

[In August 1972], Merckx broke the Hour record having 'categorically refused' a blood transfusion according to the journalist Joël Godaert. Godaert did not specify the source of his information or whose offer Merckx had refused.

Author Feargal McKay seems to be skeptical about the alleged incident mentioning it only in passing in his "A history on blood transfusions in cycling" - trilogy a few years ago without giving any time or effort on the possible implications of the episode. (While I do find the "transfusion"-trilogy both informative and well-researched, it isn't free of minor errors and anachronisms).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-blood-transfusions-in-cycling-part-2/

The episode apparently took place as Eddy Merckx himself told the following to a Belgian newspaper quite recently:

In Mexico, my hematocrit should be 52 %... I had the choice between a transfusion, this will make people have laugh, and to train me in the garage totally closed on the rollers ("fermé sur les rouleaux"). I chose the second option, there was no question of playing with my blood. I was nevertheless followed by doctors that measured and analyzed my workouts.

I'm not sceptical about it but all I had at the time was a single source, Friebe naming Godaert. I hadn't seen Le Soir's article. And we're seeing the danger of running with a single source (to wit Gimondi blood boosting before the 1973 Worlds, or during the 1975 Tour, or sometime, both times, whatever you want yourself).

A couple of bits from that Le Soir article are worth quoting. I'm doing so in their original French, drop them in the gnomish translator yourselves. First, Merckx (in 2012, before the UCI once again pressed the reset button on the Hour) demonstrating his knowledge of the ABP process:

- Expliquez-nous l’importance du choix en altitude.
- Tout simplement parce que le manque d’oxygène dans l’air augmente le rythme cardiaque et favorise l’apport d’oxygène mais dans le sang. C’est le principe du taux hématocrite dont on parle beaucoup quand il s’agit de dopage. A Mexico, mon taux devait être de 52 %. Parenthèse : aujourd’hui, si on ne s’attaque plus au record de l’heure, c’est aussi pour cela. Le passeport biologique enregistrerait des variations anormales. Donc, les coureurs sont condamnés à essayer en bord de mer. Ou alors il faut être né en Colombie ou au Mexique !

And then the bit that relates to the transfusion he was offered:

- Mais vous êtes parti au dernier moment à Mexico. Comment avez-vous fait pour programmer votre entraînement pour qu’il soit adapté à l’altitude de Mexico.
- J’avais le choix entre une transfusion sanguine, ce qui fera rire beaucoup de gens aujourd’hui, ou de m’entraîner dans mon garage complètement fermé sur les rouleaux. J’ai choisi la deuxième option, il n’était pas question qu’on chipote avec mon sang. J’étais cependant suivi par des médecins qui mesuraient analysaient mes séances d’entraînement.

The full article is available on Le Soir's site.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

According to Alessandro Donati, Francesco Conconi himself told that he had adopted the Finnish blood doping method but made some improvements into it. I've gone through a bootleg PDF-copy of Sandro Donati's book Campioni Senza Valore(1989), and have a recollection that he doesn't make the claim about Finnish origins at all about the Italian program.

The name I had previously been given was, IIRC, an Italian who passed the Finnish knowledge to Conconi. I don't want to make this look like I'm seeking the missing link, more just curious here about the more closely guarded transfer of skill sets, not just the open transfer of knowledge.

(On a wholly irrelevant note: never mention someone called Bosco to the Irish. You'll be weirded out by our reactions.)

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

aragon:
conconi started his autotransfusion experiments already in 1979.

any idea on whom?

Did you ever come across the name of maximilian testa?

 

[Le breton]

Re: Re:

aragon:
conconi started his autotransfusion experiments already in 1979.

any idea on whom?

...

Himself presumably

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

aragon:
conconi started his autotransfusion experiments already in 1979.

any idea on whom?

...

Himself presumably

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

This I think is important - like blaming Conconi for EPO, the idea of the knowledge being limited is wrong, it was out there.

The practice though, some clearly had that better than others, no? Doping in general, you've got some people who were very good at what they did, but you've also got a lot of chancers,

Within the Soviet set up, there wasn't always a freeflow of information among the USSR states and their satellites. The East Germans could be secretive, even when it came to Moscow. So I don't think you can look at the Communist countries and imagine they all had the same skill sets as each other when it came to blood boosting.

For the Western states, the Scandinavian countries were the best place to learn, yes? Then the power seems to shift to Italy. Is there a particular link between Italy and the Scandinavians* (I was told once before there was, even given a name, but no longer have it) or is it just a question of the pendulum swinging?

* I'm trying not to offend any Finns or Swedes reading this and thinking I'm siding with the other over them, hence Scandinavia. As for the rest of Scandinavia - I'm sure you were very good at this too.

There are some links between Italy and Scandinavia. For instance, famous Italian exercise physiologist Carmelo Bosco studied in Finland and wrote his doctoral thesis there (or more accurately "here") in 1975, I think. It is claimed that he tipped off his fellow Italians about the blood doping program that was going on in the country, a claim made by coach Renato Canova for instance..

According to Alessandro Donati, Francesco Conconi himself told that he had adopted the Finnish blood doping method but made some improvements into it. I've gone through a bootleg PDF-copy of Sandro Donati's book Campioni Senza Valore(1989), and have a recollection that he doesn't make the claim about Finnish origins at all about the Italian program.

As an interesting anecdote, the Italian crosscountry skiing team had two different Finnish head coaches for the whole 1980s (Viljo Sadeharju [1981-1984], Jarmo Punkkinen [1984-1989]) and the team utilized autotransfusions until 1988. While some people find there a suspicious geographical connection, Conconi started his autotransfusion experiments already in 1979, there so is most likely no connection there.

I understand that the Finns discovered a genuinely mutant Biathlete and got on to blood doping through that. As for Italy, is it a coincidence that Coe ran his silly 800 WR there?