Indurain Compared to Contador

[hrotha]

Against that Big Mig "only" managed 5 tdf's and 2 Giro's

While he has the Olympic and World TT titles I find it difficult to count them in this context because this is where the two eras conflict and times have changed massivley. Olympic and World RR/TT championships have become so specialist that the number of potential winners is now so low it's too easy to predict a winner.

http://velopalmares.free.fr/indurain.htm
5 Tours (91-95)
2 Giros (92-93)
3 Volta a Catalunya (88, 91-92)
2 Paris-Nice (89-90)
2 Dauphiné Liberé (95-96)
1 Critérium International (89)
1 Midi Libre (95)
1 Volta ao Alentejo (96)
1 Vuelta a Asturias (96)
1 Euskal Bizikleta (96)
1 Vuelta a La Rioja (95)
1 Vuelta a Galicia (95)
1 Tour de l'Oise (94)
1 Vuelta a Castilla y León (93)
1 Tour du Vaucluse (91)
1 Vuelta a los Valles Mineros (87)
1 Vuelta a Murcia (86)
1 Tour de l'Avenir (86)

Again, Indurain was a monster in one-week stage races. And his WC medals were in August, when all the top guys rode it, so if anything they should count for more than anything Contador can manage to do in the future.

 

[roundabout]

It's a bit of shame that the first Worlds TT was only in 1994. Indurain could have won a few more of those if he wanted.

Also don't forget the hour record, San Sebastian and the road championship of Spain.

 

[SiAp1984]

Indurain won tons of one-week stage races too. A couple of Dauphinés, Midi Libre, Catalunya, Asturias, Paris-Nice, Criterium International, the whole enchillada. Right now, I'd say Indurain is still ahead thanks to his two Giro-Tour doubles, his Olympic gold, his ITT WC, and his three medals in the WC RR, IIRC. Of course, Contador has more than enough time to surpass him, but right now I'd say Indurain still comes on top.

+ 1. Especially, afaik AC totally lacks success in one-day-races, be it ITT or road race (no, national titles do not count here...). But we don't know how much time AC will have on the road to top the palmares of Indurain. And he still might lose two of his GT-titles...

 

[El Pistolero]

+ 1. Especially, afaik AC totally lacks success in one-day-races, be it ITT or road race (no, national titles do not count here...). But we don't know how much time AC will have on the road to top the palmares of Indurain. And he still might lose two of his GT-titles...

Because indurain was such a one day race monster

Different eras, there's no way Indurain could follow lightweights like Contador up the climbs without EPO. If he lost weight, his time trial and power would have gone down. You don't see guys like Ullrich climbing with the best anymore now do you.

As for Indurain's stage races, a lot of nice ones in them, but half of them on that list are really really obscure...

 

[hrotha]

Half of them don't exist anymore. They weren't obscure at the time, they're comparable to Algarve or Castilla y León (probably even better, since this was before the Pro Tour so the fields they got were stronger; look at the winners of the Vuelta a Galicia or of the Midi Libre, for example). As for one-day races, Indurain won San Sebastián and was up there regularly in the WC. In 1991, he was 4th in Liege-Bastogne-Liege. Contador's one-day palmares is not better than that at this point.

And it's pointless to include Clinic matters in the equation.

 

[Swabian Lass]

At the moment it's impossible to say. For me, Indurain still just inches it, if you look at GTs only - mainly down to the Giro/Tour doubles. However, if Contador continues to ride I think that he will overtake Big Mig, although the idea that he may have peaked already is fascinating. Must think some more about that, I guess time will tell.

I never found Indurain that boring, although he wasn't the most exciting of riders. Now Armstrong and the USP train, that was boring.

 

[El Pistolero]

Half of them don't exist anymore. They weren't obscure at the time, they're comparable to Algarve or Castilla y León (probably even better, since this was before the Pro Tour so the fields they got were stronger; look at the winners of the Vuelta a Galicia or of the Midi Libre, for example). As for one-day races, Indurain won San Sebastián and was up there regularly in the WC. In 1991, he was 4th in Liege-Bastogne-Liege. Contador's one-day palmares is not better than that at this point.

And it's pointless to include Clinic matters in the equation.

It's not pointless, I'm saying it's impossible to ever climb like that with a weight like Indurain's and Ullrich nowadays. Indurain was so good in time trials because he's not skinny like Contador or Schleck(and incredible genetics of course). It's unfair to Contador to throw Indurain's time trial prowess in the game. Cycling has changed and Cancellara and Tony Martin will always beat GT contenders in one day time trial events. That wasn't the case during the 90s. It's actually pretty amazing Contador can time trial so well given his weight.

And I wasn't really talking about Midi Libre, but some of the Portuguese and Spanish stage races on there. And it's good to note that most of his stage wins in stage races were either before his Tour domination or at the very end of his career. But that's only normal I guess because Big Mig did do the Giro-Tour double twice and got second or third as well once in the Giro('94 against Evgeni Berzin and Marco Pantani) if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Mich78BEL]

However, if Contador continues to ride I think that he will overtake Big Mig, although the idea that he may have peaked already is fascinating. Must think some more about that, I guess time will tell.

Look at it this way, he hasn't improved the last 2 years compared to 2009 when he won the Tour in a convincing way, he hasn't really gotten worse but certainly not better either, so yes i think he has already peaked.

 

[The Ripper]

... so yes i think he has already peaked.

That's one way of looking at it. There are other reasons he might not be so dominant now

 

[No_Balls]

Nicely worded. He was a great time trialist rather than a born winner. I recall his time trial exploits in the 92 Giro and Tour de France which blew away his main rivals. Who recalls that Luxembourg TT in Le Tour of 92 ??? I recall Fignon describing Big Mig not as a bike rider but as plane that day !!!

No, rather a extraterrestial or like an alien. This too, surrounded his legacy which gave him huge respect and/or no one really dared to attack him.

This also answers your later post. Chiappucchi and Bugno did by the time of 1992 and definitively in -93 already thought of themselves as eternal runner-ups. Same with Rominger (except by some displays in -93).

As up to now i would say Contador is a greater talent, but Indurain more the rider. But i would also like to point out that Alberto is not far off now. The fact that he has avoided Indurains peak-for-July schedule (after -94 that is) is speaking more in his favour. He is not all about the Tour and i like that.

And, he has NOT peaked yet.

 

[the asian]

Conatdor is definitely the more exciting rider. But it's unfair to compare them now beacuse Contador's career is still in progress. If conti's career ends right now, it will be very tough to judge who's the better. Conti is one of 5, to win all 3 GTs. But MIG has one more GT and two Giro,Tour doubles, and World and olympic TT success. However if Contador doesnt fall foul of the CAS, there is no doubt in my mind that Contador will go on to be regarded as much better than Indurain. Even Eddies' 11 GTs are not out of reach.

 

[Indurain]

Indurain is my cycling idol. (Just in case you didn't know

Here are a few thoughts.
Indurain was so talented, he could have been anything he wanted to be in cycling.
A one day rider who could have won Paris-Roubaix, Hilly Classics, etc
A sprinter. I remember him once sprinting in the Giro. He led them out for a 200m or so and then sprunt for about 300m and still got 3rd against the top sprinters!!
A breakaway specialist. Remember 1995 with the Hog on his wheel the whole way.
But he chose to be a timetrial specialist and GC contender. He often rode his competitors off his wheel when he had to in the mountains, to catch another ie. 1995 to limit his losses to Zulle, 1994 to distance Rominger and catch and pass Pantani. Pantani had no answer for him in both 1994 and 1995. He was in a class of his own. The funny thing is, we rarely saw what he was truly capable of.

We very rarely saw him win stages in the mountains as he gave away so many gifts. He recognised that cycling was people's jobs. He allowed them success, but could have easily taken them too. He gave them away with humbleness, unlike Armstrong. Very few untrained eyes could tell. But many riders came to thank him after for his gift. They knew.

They made a race after Indurain. I wonder if they will do the same for Contador. The true test of who is the greatest though was the public. Even the french liked Indurain. Even though Virenque and him didn't always see eye to eye. Indurain put him in his place a few times. Can't say the same for Contador.

 

[L'arriviste]

Indurain is my cycling idol. (Just in case you didn't know

Here are a few thoughts.
Indurain was so talented, he could have been anything he wanted to be in cycling.
A one day rider who could have won Paris-Roubaix, Hilly Classics, etc
A sprinter. I remember him once sprinting in the Giro. He led them out for a 200m or so and then sprunt for about 300m and still got 3rd against the top sprinters!!
A breakaway specialist. Remember 1995 with the Hog on his wheel the whole way.
But he chose to be a timetrial specialist and GC contender. He often rode his competitors off his wheel when he had to in the mountains, to catch another ie. 1995 to limit his losses to Zulle, 1994 to distance Rominger and catch and pass Pantani. Pantani had no answer for him in both 1994 and 1995. He was in a class of his own. The funny thing is, we rarely saw what he was truly capable of.

We very rarely saw him win stages in the mountains as he gave away so many gifts. He recognised that cycling was people's jobs. He allowed them success, but could have easily taken them too. He gave them away with humbleness, unlike Armstrong. Very few untrained eyes could tell. But many riders came to thank him after for his gift. They knew.

They made a race after Indurain. I wonder if they will do the same for Contador. The true test of who is the greatest though was the public. Even the french liked Indurain. Even though Virenque and him didn't always see eye to eye. Indurain put him in his place a few times. Can't say the same for Contador.

Even my fondness for the era isn't that rose-tinted.

I don't believe Indurain could have won Paris-Roubaix, certainly not later in his career when he would have had to beat Museeuw, Tchmil, Ballerini, Duclos-Lasalle etc.

As a 'breakaway specialist', his earlier years showed that he had a certain ability. But later he was the same as Contador: he only attacked when he needed to. Which in the peak of his career was not very often. He followed the moves, he did not make them. He was mildly criticised for it, but thankfully unlike today, there were plenty of others ready to make an exciting show of the race, so it was never a big deal. That sense of timing was a real talent of his: he never panicked when Chiapucci and Bugno tried to take the long road.

There can be little doubt however that he was the best (and most consistent) time-triallist of his generation. Very few others could get near him, even in prologues and shorter parcours. Only Boardman and Thierry Marie were so close to him then. Contador has nothing like that dominance against the clock.

I always hoped with a fan's fervour, as I still do with today's generation including Contador, that he would one day say basta and ride all those Classics and other events for fun. For me, that would have been the mark of an old-school champion. But, forever faithful to his sponsors and to the team's goals, he never did. More's the pity.

 

[hrotha]

A sprinter. I remember him once sprinting in the Giro. He led them out for a 200m or so and then sprunt for about 300m and still got 3rd against the top sprinters!!

Haha, remember how he used to say he wasn't gifting stages, he just wasn't fast enough to contend them? That was hilarious. I was like, man, you beat Ludwig and Museeuw in a sprint at the WC! He was pretty fast, but rarely chose to show it.

 

[No_Balls]

Even my fondness for the era isn't that rose-tinted.

But later he was the same as Contador: he only attacked when he needed to. Which in the peak of his career was not very often. He followed the moves, he did not make them.

So, what you is saying is that Contador is a rather conservative rider who mostly follow wheels?

 

[Angliru]

Reading this and knowing Miguel was superior in the ITT could make one think he simply won the Tours by doing great ITTs but was just okay in the mountains. I don't agree. Take for example the 1991 Tour (http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf1991.html). The ITT was on stage 8, which was won by Miguel. But the GC leader after the stage 8 ITT was LeMond with a lead of 2'17 over Miguel, who was 4th overall at that point. Miguel did not take the GC lead until stage 13 (climbs included the Pourtalet, Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin, Val Louron). The stage 13 winner was Chiapucci, who was way down on the GC standing, and Miguel finished the stage 1 second behind Chiapucci. At that point the next closest to Miguel on GC was 3 minutes back. That was an incredible tactical move by Mig to stay with Chiappuci without having to attack him, but also shows he had the stuff in the mountains too. He definately had a different style in the mountains than Pantani or Alberto, and was more of a grinder, but he was so powerful he was tough to reckon with. Then after stage 13 with a 3 minute lead on GC over the next closest GC contender meant he just had to race tactically and not go out and try anything on his own... including stage 17 to Alpe d'Huez, where he finished 1 second behind stage winner Bugno. But IMO by then he showed he was tough in the mountains too. It is perhaps more fun to watch someone like Pantani or Alberto race, but to say AC is WAY better than Mig is a tough call to make. I would just call them both great and just leave it at that, as it's too hard to compare between the generations when they never raced against each other.

Other than that, I'm sure Miguel did his share of suffering and gave it his best. One thing about Miguel is when you saw him grimacing on climbs, he always had the same face and you never knew if he was struggling, grinning, or laughing at the others.

Indurain was focused completely on the big picture, that being the Tour overall. Stage wins weren't that important to him. Securing time on his opponents was paramount, limiting whatever damage his opponents may do to him in the mountains to a minimum. He was quite gracious about allowing others to get the stage win knowing what his ultimate goal was.

This is one of the areas where, IMO Contador and Indurain are quite similar. I think earlier in his career, Contador may have chased stage wins and found importance in them but as he's matured, his focus seemed to be more on securing the overall victory and allowing others the glory of the stage wins when it was not a threat to his overall ambitions. I still think deep down he wants to win on mtf's, especially on prestigious climbs like Alpe d'Huez but only if it doesn't compromise his long range plans for that race.

 

[L'arriviste]

So, what you is saying is that Contador is a rather conservative rider who mostly follow wheels?

No, but since you put it like that, I am guilty of over-generalising. Contador also attacks when he needs to but I think the difference is that Contador can't count on pulling out big time gaps in the TTs like Indurain could, so he needs to attack more often.

The "comfort" of those gaps was something that made the Tour rather dry in the early 90s, if I recall correctly.

If Contador could gain 4 minutes by the first mountain stage, I'm not sure he would attack like he does now. Having said that, maybe he still would, I don't know.

 

[El Pistolero]

No, but since you put it like that, I am guilty of over-generalising. Contador also attacks when he needs to but I think the difference is that Contador can't count on pulling out big time gaps in the TTs like Indurain could, so he needs to attack more often.

The "comfort" of those gaps was something that made the Tour rather dry in the early 90s, if I recall correctly.

If Contador could gain 4 minutes by the first mountain stage, I'm not sure he would attack like he does now. Having said that, maybe he still would, I don't know.

He still attacked in the stage Tiralongo won at the Giro

 

[L'arriviste]

He still attacked in the stage Tiralongo won at the Giro

So I guess maybe he still would then. That's all the better for cycling.

 

[Angliru]

Look at it this way, he hasn't improved the last 2 years compared to 2009 when he won the Tour in a convincing way, he hasn't really gotten worse but certainly not better either, so yes i think he has already peaked.

One of the arguments that the Evans supporters had was that his environment (his team's) was not conducive to him being at his best nor was it the most supportive of elements. The belief is that a sea of change has seemingly come over Evans since his WC victory based on that move to BMC.

Contador has been with 3 teams in 3 years with the first being in his relatively formative/maturing years (Disco/Astana under Bruyneel) with the last year filled with never-ending drama, conflicts and distractions. Next the virtual move from Bruyneel/Astana to Vino/Martinelli Astana. Again not ideal and a year with the span of time between the end of the 2009 Tour to the beginning of 2010 not necessarily one on calming cruise-control, especially the period after the Tour where his next team was up in the air, dependant upon being let out of his Astana contract.

Resolved to his fate of staying with an Astana that was pretty much emptied of all of its stage race talent and support, with the exception of Vino, Contador's 3 amigos (Navarro, Noval and Hernandez, one or 2 of which were added after the exodus) and several hires, it's natural that a rider would take time to adapt to their new environment and mesh with different management styles, personalities and training philosphies.

Next year the move to a Saxo Bank team that had just experienced a very similar exodus of talent to the new Leopard-Trek squad, leaving a team even more depleted of talent than the previous Astana team. Not an ideal series of environments to foster success, not to mention the drama of the positive test
during the last rest day of the 2010 Tour and the long drawn out drama that followed.

I'm a firm believer that stability breeds success and even in this period of chaos Contador still found a way to come out on top with the exception of this year's Tour, where surprisingly in this forum, he gained quite a few converts to his side as admirers of his tenacious drive and ability.

It's my belief that should he stay with Riis and Saxo Bank that we will see not a Contador who has reached his peak early and beginning to decline but one that will continue to display his talents as the era's greatest stage racer with couple of wins in the hilly classics thrown in.

 

[Carols]

I'm a firm believer that stability breeds success and even in this period of chaos Contador still found a way to come out on top with the exception of this year's Tour, where surprisingly in this forum, he gained quite a few converts to his side as admirers of his tenacious drive and ability.

It's my belief that should he stay with Riis and Saxo Bank that we will see not a Contador who has reached his peak early and beginning to decline but one that will continue to display his talents as the era's greatest stage racer with couple of wins in the hilly classics thrown in.

I agree, barring an unfavorable CAS ruling, this guy will prove himself one of the beat to ever throw his leg over a bike. He's well on his way to proving that already.

 

[El Pistolero]

Contador also said he has never been as strong as in the Giro last year. In Murcia and Catalunya he already remembered me of the Contador of 2009. But in the Giro this year he went a step over that. And don't tell me the competition was weak:

1 Ivan Basso (Italy) Liquigas-Doimo 87h 44' 01"
2 David Arroyo (Spain) Caisse d'Epargne + 1' 51"
3 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) Liquigas-Doimo + 2' 37"
4 Michele Scarponi (Italy) Androni Giocattoli + 2' 50"
5 Cadel Evans (Australia) BMC Racing Team + 3' 27"

Cuddles was in top shape at that Giro(won a stage plus the points classification), although his team did have a bad TTT, but he made a lot of that up at the strade bianche stage.

 

[No_Balls]

No, but since you put it like that, I am guilty of over-generalising. Contador also attacks when he needs to but I think the difference is that Contador can't count on pulling out big time gaps in the TTs like Indurain could, so he needs to attack more often.

I would like to point out that it wasn´t in a rude way i asked. I was just curious given the way you wrote. I suppose you have a valid point there.

But, needless to say now, he still attacked at the Giro despite being already minutes over his rivals AND with the comfortable feeling that he wont lose that in the TT. He is not Indurainesque in Time-Trials (and god knows few are) but generally do well there. A rather ok TT will see him lose one minute at worst.

It should also be said that he in that famous Tour 2009 attacked when he was not allowed but already where in reach for the yellow.

The "comfort" of those gaps was something that made the Tour rather dry in the early 90s, if I recall correctly.

Yes, they said so. But i always enjoyed it. Seeing the guys in their prime doing what they do best can never be boring/dry/dull whatever. I enjoyed Indurains time-trialing as much as Contadors climbing, both is in some ways a piece of art.

 

[Parrulo]

Contador also said he has never been as strong as in the Giro last year. In Murcia and Catalunya he already remembered me of the Contador of 2009. But in the Giro this year he went a step over that. And don't tell me the competition was weak:

1 Ivan Basso (Italy) Liquigas-Doimo 87h 44' 01"
2 David Arroyo (Spain) Caisse d'Epargne + 1' 51"
3 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) Liquigas-Doimo + 2' 37"
4 Michele Scarponi (Italy) Androni Giocattoli + 2' 50"
5 Cadel Evans (Australia) BMC Racing Team + 3' 27"

Cuddles was in top shape at that Giro(won a stage plus the points classification), although his team did have a bad TTT, but he made a lot of that up at the strade bianche stage.

silly pistolero implying evans was in top shape/ injure free. he was beaten therefore he wasn't.

^^typical aussie reply to that argument

 

[indurain666]

who could have won Paris-Roubaix, Hilly Classics, etc
A sprinter. I remember him once sprinting in the Giro. He led them out for a 200m or so and then sprunt for about 300m and still got 3rd against the top sprinters!!
A breakaway specialist. Remember 1995 with the Hog on his wheel the whole way.
But he chose to be a timetrial specialist and GC contender. He often rode his competitors off his wheel when he had to in the mountains, to catch another ie. 1995 to limit his losses to Zulle, 1994 to distance Rominger and catch and pass Pantani. Pantani had no answer for him in both 1994 and 1995. He was in a class of his own. The funny thing is, we rarely saw what he was truly capable of.

We very rarely saw him win stages in the mountains as he gave away so many gifts. He recognised that cycling was people's jobs. He allowed them success, but could have easily taken them too. He gave them away with humbleness, unlike Armstrong. Very few untrained eyes could tell. But many riders came to thank him after for his gift. They knew.

They made a race after Indurain. I wonder if they will do the same for Contador. The true test of who is the greatest though was the public. Even the french liked Indurain. Even though Virenque and him didn't always see eye to eye. Indurain put him in his place a few times. Can't say the same for Contador.

I don't agree with "french liked Indurain" I don't think French like other people be American, Spanish, etc

Funny how people easily forget what an awesome climber Indurain was. Remember in 95 when he had to chase Zulle down while he was off the front from a breakaway? He basically sat down and rode very hard tempo up to La Plagne and basically slaughtered all climbers one by one! Often he did not need to do that due to long time trials.

TDF was a different race back them, TT kms were well above 100 km mark which made

Also, pro cycling season of a lot of these 90s guys was not built around TDF like modern guys. Indurain
"only" won five TDFs plus two Giros, two of those were Giro-TDF doubles which in my view, puts him at a higher level of achievement compared to Armstrong.

Hard to say if Contador is going to be even better than Indurain, he still has about 6 years of high level racing (in theory). I would be very disappointed if he spends the next five years just racing TDfs, and nothing else.