Indurain EPO?

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Mar 10, 2009
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Even to this day, Indurain blames the weather and cracking on that one stage as destroying his tour. He felt he never recovered from it. I don't understand how this could be so, but I guess he would know. But it was still admirable how he kept fighting and dishonourable how Riis flaunted it in his face, like he was playing with him.

Best stage ever that one in 94 when he chased down Pantani with Leblanc. I remember him passing Pantani. Pantani tried to hook on, looked at his speedo and just shook his head as if to say "hey I've got a 60% hemocrite level, what the hell are you on". Would have liked to see the earlier stages of the climb, but they didn't show it.

Next best stage was probably 95 when he rode the peleton off his wheel with just the Hog on board.

I can't understand why they think his tours were boring. Unlike Armstrong who tried to win every mountain stage, Indurain use to let the breaks go and then chase them down later. He would ride people off his wheel without even attacking. Everyone use to try and attack him in the mountains. Pretty exciting stuff to me. Okay the results were probably not hard to predict, but that doesn't mean it's boring racing.
 
Indurain said:
Even to this day, Indurain blames the weather and cracking on that one stage as destroying his tour. He felt he never recovered from it. I don't understand how this could be so, but I guess he would know. But it was still admirable how he kept fighting and dishonourable how Riis flaunted it in his face, like he was playing with him.

Best stage ever that one in 94 when he chased down Pantani with Leblanc. I remember him passing Pantani. Pantani tried to hook on, looked at his speedo and just shook his head as if to say "hey I've got a 60% hemocrite level, what the hell are you on". Would have liked to see the earlier stages of the climb, but they didn't show it.

Next best stage was probably 95 when he rode the peleton off his wheel with just the Hog on board.

I can't understand why they think his tours were boring. Unlike Armstrong who tried to win every mountain stage, Indurain use to let the breaks go and then chase them down later. He would ride people off his wheel without even attacking. Everyone use to try and attack him in the mountains. Pretty exciting stuff to me. Okay the results were probably not hard to predict, but that doesn't mean it's boring racing.
Well, I think Indurians Tours were boring because they were usually a foregone conclusion after the first long TT which ASO always seemed to include. It was just defensive riding after, although I also agree he was more generous and less dominant than Armstrong.

After the 2nd or 3rd victories of both, it became seriously tedious.
 
pmcg76 said:
Well, I think Indurians Tours were boring because they were usually a foregone conclusion after the first long TT which ASO always seemed to include. It was just defensive riding after, although I also agree he was more generous and less dominant than Armstrong.

After the 2nd or 3rd victories of both, it became seriously tedious.
As someone who watched the Tour back then, I agree with this, despite the best attempts of some folks to rewrite history (but then, I never saw the Armstrong years). The Indurain époque for me was all about the race for the other two spots on the podium and watching the last of the old guard of 80s cycling die off, some more slowly than others. :)
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Frosty said:
Bump.

Thierry Marie at 12 minutes. Who were those guys kidding. And they got away with it. Thanks to the media. Breukink at six minutes, yeah right. Really, when upper cheat LA is going to be taken down, isn't the time right to take InduEPO down?
Best stage ever that one in 94 when he chased down Pantani with Leblanc. I remember him passing Pantani. Pantani tried to hook on, looked at his speedo and just shook his head as if to say "hey I've got a 60% hemocrite level, what the hell are you on". Would have liked to see the earlier stages of the climb, but they didn't show it
We know how pumped Pantani was, helais we never ever heard the cycling media ramble about an eighty kilo Spanjard destroying a mountain goat of 20 kilo less.

Armstrong avant la lettre. Twenty years of Tour de farce.
 
May 26, 2009
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Really, when upper cheat LA is going to be taken down, isn't the time right to take InduEPO down?
And how would you do that? Torture him to get a confession? :D
 
All of Indurain's career falls outside of the statute of limitations period, which isn't the case with Armstrong. If you go after Indurain, why not go beyond that? Plenty of dopers in the 80s who gladly used whatever they could get their hands on, and who just happened to ride before the EPO era.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Franklin said:
And how would you do that? Torture him to get a confession? :D
Hence the guy can't talk I say sign language.
hrotha said:
All of Indurain's career falls outside of the statute of limitations period, which isn't the case with Armstrong. If you go after Indurain, why not go beyond that? Plenty of dopers in the 80s who gladly used whatever they could get their hands on, and who just happened to ride before the EPO era.
Wasn't Riise also out of limits? I donnot see that as a barreer at all. Hell, guys of his peloton are stating it openly, mainly Dutch that is. Just tell us he and all of his peloton buddies cheated some carreers short. Do it for the 40 who decided not to EPO - juice. Do it for the guys who died trying to keep up with the alchemist game cycling became/has become. Why not? Or does he think throwing some money in the Opus Dei charity box every now and then will make up for his sins?
 
May 26, 2009
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Why not? Or does he think throwing some money in the Opus Dei charity box every now and then will make up for his sins?
I'd say you are more than a little dramatic here. :rolleyes:
 
pmcg76 said:
Well, I think Indurians Tours were boring because they were usually a foregone conclusion after the first long TT which ASO always seemed to include. It was just defensive riding after, although I also agree he was more generous and less dominant than Armstrong.
1993 with Rominger was a contest but agree the rest were a procession. In '93 Too bad Rominger lost a lot of time in the first TT and TTT with mechanical incidents. He beat Indurain in the final TT and seemed slightly stronger in the mountains but not strong enough to take time back.

Having said this I've always admired Indurain for his sheer physiological superiority. In the mountains he was a one man Sky / USPS. Yeh he doped but so did everyone else then - except maybe Lemond. In that 1994 stage to Hautacam he murdered Rominger, Pantani and all the other GC contenders but was gracious enough to allow Leblanc to take the win. This earned my respect together with him allowing Bruneel the win on the "motorbike" stage into Liege in '95.
 
May 26, 2009
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Indurain isn't a Lance, and he isn't Lemond.

He's the guy in the middle.

We can be pretty sure he used Epo, but we also know he was already seen as a GT winner for the (very near future). He's not a one day fly turning a GC monster.

We simply don't know what would have happened had there not been Epo

And before people start frothing at the mouth again and rack it up as a Lemond win, an aledgedly clean rider, Charly Mottet, finished 4th in 1991, three spots above Greg. Also, Erik Breukink, an upcoming star pre-epo also had his career cut short (though thats another kettle of fish altogether).
 
Jul 10, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
. . . when upper cheat LA is going to be taken down, isn't the time right to take InduEPO down?
. . .
You know, I don't see it that way. At the moment - I will be content when Lance gets what he deserves - when we finally have a real public hearing on the issue of Armstrong and dope. And a decision, one way or the other.

When Indurain was doing EPO, and I think that is a safe assumption, it was still legal - or at least part of the way through his career it was. Maybe it would be better to say it wasn't illegal. It was Armstrong who broke my pleasure in just watching a good race, with the years of his deceit and lies, and calling so many other people liars. I think when we get some sort of resolution of the Armstrong years, the rest hardly matter. Plenty have been caught since then, or sufficiently implicated.

Leave Indurain to the Spanish to settle, if they want to. I don't. It wasn't Indurain who became the American hero/star of the bicycle and Le Tour. Once we get some resolution there, I think it will be a good time to move on, and worry more about making sure it doesn't happen again.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Franklin said:
I'd say you are more than a little dramatic here. :rolleyes:
Cycling is still to be a 'catholic' sport, Opus D. seems to bee catholic too...

But you may be rigth. But I hope you catch my drift. It would have been nice if alchemists like Conconi, Padilla, Fuentes, Checchini, Ferrari, Casoni, Grazzi, Arritabel, van Mol etc etc weren't the decisive factor in pro - cycling.

Wonder what the team doctor of Salanson cum suis thinks nowadays.

And before people start frothing at the mouth again and rack it up as a Lemond win, an aledgedly clean rider, Charly Mottet, finished 4th in 1991, three spots above Greg. Also, Erik Breukink, an upcoming star pre-epo also had his career cut short (though thats another kettle of fish altogether).
I wouldn't have mind seeing Mottet as a GT winner, not at all. He was a pretty clean rider, a bit of uppers now and then. No probs here. Nobody dies of a few uppers. With EPO it is something different. People have died trying to maintain their position in that EPO rat race. That's my problem with Indurain and his generation. How can an idiot like Jaskula get on the Tour podium? MAybe his fellow countryman Halupczok tried to equal his merit and died trying.

And so on.

You know, I don't see it that way. At the moment - I will be content when Lance gets what he deserves - when we finally have a real public hearing on the issue of Armstrong and dope. And a decision, one way or the other.
I disagree. LA brought it on himself but he seems to become the sacrificial lamb for 20 years of dirty cycling. The Ben Johnson of cycling. Every oxigen vector doper should be held accountable in my opinion, also the in many peoples eyes - not in mine - likeable Indurain.

When Indurain was doing EPO, and I think that is a safe assumption, it was still legal - or at least part of the way through his career it was. Maybe it would be better to say it wasn't illegal. It was Armstrong who broke my pleasure in just watching a good race, with the years of his deceit and lies, and calling so many other people liars. I think when we get some sort of resolution of the Armstrong years, the rest hardly matter. Plenty have been caught since then, or sufficiently implicated.
EPO was on the IOC list since 1990, is that legal or not? Or we must ask Perico :D

Leave Indurain to the Spanish to settle, if they want to. I don't. It wasn't Indurain who became the American hero/star of the bicycle and Le Tour. Once we get some resolution there, I think it will be a good time to move on, and worry more about making sure it doesn't happen again.
Because the Spanjards are so restrictive towards dopeurs in cycling? You must know that is a farcital statement. If it were to the Spanish Cycling Union Contador would have been racing all of this year and years to come.

You mustn't forget EPo was a sick game. Some riders adepted very well to it, some others didn't. So they couldn't get a decent result nevertheless their talent. Is that racing?

Would be nice to see what results there would have been in the nineties when you delete the EPO juiced squads. Charly Mottet would have had two for that matter. Hampsten won a Giro in the eighties but never got in place of even a podium later on.

Those things **** me off, but hell, big Mig is such a nice guy! No, he is fraud. Big fraud Mig.
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Wasn't Riise also out of limits? I donnot see that as a barreer at all. Hell, guys of his peloton are stating it openly, mainly Dutch that is. Just tell us he and all of his peloton buddies cheated some carreers short. Do it for the 40 who decided not to EPO - juice. Do it for the guys who died trying to keep up with the alchemist game cycling became/has become. Why not? Or does he think throwing some money in the Opus Dei charity box every now and then will make up for his sins?
Yep, Riis was out of limits, which is why he didn't lose his titles. I'm all for the whole story being told, but I thought you wanted him to actually go down, you now, legally.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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hrotha said:
Yep, Riis was out of limits, which is why he didn't lose his titles. I'm all for the whole story being told, but I thought you wanted him to actually go down, you now, legally.
No, a public statement with at least one tear is enough. Do it for those who died trying big Mig, and the rest u frauded.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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D-Queued said:
Seriously?

There was only one clean rider here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs&feature=relmfu

And it wasn't the guy on the right. The sound isn't very good, but I think he was heard to say Que buena camisa as he passed by.

How about that home soil Atlanta Olympic experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWPnANdHmUc

Another clean win.

Dave.
This topic reminds me of that famous interview of Induráin by his good friend José Maria García about 3 years after Miguel had retired, live on spanish radio.
García started off the interview by asking, since there were so many rumours about Miguel's relationship with Delgado, that if there was any question he didn't want to be truthful about, just say so and they'll skip to the next.

Then he started the hard hitting questions. Most were about Miguel's relationship with Delgado. To everyone's surprise Miguel answered all of them........
....until García got to this question that he thought was going to be one of the softer ones and would have an unremarkable answer

García: "Miguel, did you ever dope?"
Induráin: "Let's move on to the next question"
García: "........."
Induráin: "Let's move on"
García: "if you don't want to talk you're insinuating you doped!"
Induráin: "Next question"

With García audibly completely stunned the interview didn't last long after that.
 
Yeah, I don't think there can be any controversy about whether or not Indurain doped (we can always discuss when he started on a program, when he got on EPO, and what was the extent of his natural talent, but that's all). That episode you mention is well-known among hardcore Spanish cycling fans, but not among the general public, even though José María García was a sport radio superstar at the time. Indurain didn't lie about it, which I think was nice considering the era he raced in.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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hrotha said:
Yeah, I don't think there can be any controversy about whether or not Indurain doped (we can always discuss when he started on a program, when he got on EPO, and what was the extent of his natural talent, but that's all). That episode you mention is well-known among hardcore Spanish cycling fans, but not among the general public, even though José María García was a sport radio superstar at the time. Indurain didn't lie about it, which I think was nice considering the era he raced in.
Understatement. The man stole podiums of athletes who didn't use fake bloodcells. Destroyed carreers of riders who didn't want to poison themselfs. Climbing with his big fat a$$ like he was Lucho Herrera, Fabio Parra. Winning as many Tours as Hinault. Just because his muscle structure was perfect for EPO? Shame on him an on them who say 'nice he didn't lie about it'. That's omerting, condoning the whole maffia pro cycling.

1991
Tour: Indurain/Conconi-Padilla
Giro: Chioccoli/van Mol - Cecchini
Vuelta: Mauri/Fuentes

What a great sport it has been since then.
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Understatement. The man stole podiums of athletes who didn't use fake bloodcells. Destroyed carreers of riders who didn't want to poison themselfs. Climbing with his big fat a$$ like he was Lucho Herrera, Fabio Parra. Winning as many Tours as Hinault. Just because his muscle structure was perfect for EPO? Shame on him an on them who say 'nice he didn't lie about it'. That's omerting, condoning the whole maffia pro cycling.

1991
Tour: Indurain/Conconi-Padilla
Giro: Chioccoli/van Mol - Cecchini
Vuelta: Mauri/Fuentes

What a great sport it has been since then.
Well, sorry, but I don't think that expressing respect for his unwillingness to lie, implicitly admitting he had doped, in an era when no high profile riders had yet come out, is anything to be ashamed of. There's a whole continuum between the negative pole of ridiculous denials and lies even when caught red-handed à la Armstrong or Astarloza, and the positive pole of acknowledgment and telling all à la Jaksche or Manzano. Indurain lies somewhere in between. Vaughters is closer to the positive pole.

The border between pre and post-EPO days is not a moral one. Pre-EPO dopers used all the means available to them to boost their performance. Post-EPO dopers did the same. Ethically, it's the same thing. It's just that pre-EPO doping didn't distort the competition nearly as much - but that wasn't for lack of trying.
 
May 2, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
blahblahblahINDURAINEPOblahblahblahCHEATERSPANIARDSblahblahblah.....
1) Settle down

2) Worry about the current suspicious riders if you want to be taken seriously. 20 years ago might be fine for you, but a bit out of date. You might as well go and investigate dopers of 30, 40 or 50 years ago if that helps you.

3) Get a life :D
 
May 26, 2009
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hrotha said:
Yeah, I don't think there can be any controversy about whether or not Indurain doped (we can always discuss when he started on a program, when he got on EPO, and what was the extent of his natural talent, but that's all).
Summed up nicely :cool:
 
Apr 20, 2012
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hrotha said:
The border between pre and post-EPO days is not a moral one. Pre-EPO dopers used all the means available to them to boost their performance. Post-EPO dopers did the same. Ethically, it's the same thing. It's just that pre-EPO doping didn't distort the competition nearly as much - but that wasn't for lack of trying.
I tend to disagree with you. The bloodboys destroyed cycling imho.

Nevertheless we almost are on the same wagon.

sartoris said:
1) Settle down

2) Worry about the current suspicious riders if you want to be taken seriously. 20 years ago might be fine for you, but a bit out of date. You might as well go and investigate dopers of 30, 40 or 50 years ago if that helps you.

3) Get a life :D
I do not need to be taken seriously by people like you. I do not know you and sure as hell do not want to know you.

If you don't see Wiggins and his unbelievable train are a carbon copy of Indurain and his armada you should stay out of it and just go enjoy your life.
 
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