Internal Garmin Email from Prentice Steffen

[AnythingButKestrel]

Wow. Someone had to smoke some nuclear dope, play a Pink Floyd record backwards, then read the lines between the lines to evoke something sinister out of that email.

 

[Granville57]

To me, that OP is a joke in terms of anything substantial. Oooh, cyclingleaks delivers something with all the false intrigue of Daotec but with proper English. Is that email really supposed to be startling to The Clinic regulars?

Reading through the thread I couldn't believe it got past a couple of posts, until JV chimed in. That was interesting in that in validated the legitimacy of the email. But so what? He doesn't need to respond to every accusation on here and the fact that he responds at all should say something. He openly responds on Twitter and invites anyone to contact him directly (can't blame him for not choosing this forum as his primary primary mode of communication).

Cyclingleaks never weighs back in. Why not make a few demands in that direction as opposed to JV? Whoever posted that, for whatever reason, had better have something significantly more substantial if they are going to bother in the future. Krebs' weather pics are much more worthy of my time.

Btw, this was beautiful, Hitch

JV.
Daniel Martin is on my cq team. Could you take him to the tour please.
Cheers

 

[unsheath]

More importantly, will our mysterious poster will be back?

 

[ultimobici]

I don't want to start another frenzy by posting, but you I'm happy to give an explanation on this one.

In 2008, blood profiling was brand new and the riders had a lot of questions. One was "Can we see our results?" This email was politely telling them "no" and the reason why. Perception equals reality is just that. If the public or even WADA thought we were giving the riders their results, it would look as if we were providing riders data to help them dope. In my meetings with WADA is 2006 and 2007, where we were conceiving this program, they were insistent that the riders not be given access to the results "quickly"...Of course, a few months after the fact is fine, as its of little value then and a rider may want these for their medical records or to help track training load vs. blood profile. So, this was a nice way of saying "no, you don't get them, but its not because we think you're cheating or that you're little children, but that we must make sure everyone's perception of our team is in line with what the reality is."

I honestly don't think riders have requested any of these results since the email. They do get their UCI quarterlies, which I think is a good thing, as those tests are no used for anti-doping and are performed in any lab you'd like.

I can't help it if Prentice meanders a bit in his writing. He's a doctor, not Bill Bryson.

As far as the press. Yes, we have a strict procedure in releasing blood data:
1. You are an accredited journalist asking for it.
2. You have a hematologist on retainer to help you review the data.

Seems pretty logical, eh? Its the same now as it was in 2008. And if you were a pro rider, i'd imagine you'd want something like this is place to, as opposed to just giving the info away to anyone.

Anyhow, just FYI, legally I could have this post taken down, at least according to the CN legal staff, but I'm choosing to let this stay up, as I'm pretty sick and tired of being accused of not being "really transparent" or whatever the weird "the moon comes and JV will suffer under the shadow of the five a**ed monkey at midnight" that sometimes gets posted here.

So, here's your transparency, approved by JV himself.

Any questions?Just email me or call. Its way easier than this. And I will get back to you. I'm not posting my email or phone number, as I'm already stocked up on Viagra ads, but just call the office and ask. i'll get back to you....as soon as I'm done teaching PVP English.

JV

Thankyou so much for a great start to my Sunday here in damp, dark London. Your post brought a big smile to my face.

PVP is working with Garmin? Roll on April.....

 

[Barrus]

Certain new fixed blood values were in use starting in 2004...ie off-score of 133+ and you're out. also, obviously, the homologous transfusion test was in place in 2004. Individual profiling, ie looking at individual variation and comparing that to standard deviation, was not in use in 2004. The focus of ACE in 2008 and the current blood passport model is deviation of the individual's values from his norms. not fixed, standardized cross-population values such as 50% hct or 133 off-score.

here's a little factoid too: hematocrit hasnt been seen as big factor in anti-doping for quite some time. its all about hemoglobin and retic relationships. the 50% hct rule hasnt been in place for a while, as any small sample transport delay or exposure to heat can really mess with hct% by swelling the cells or even popping them. However, Hemoglobin is stable for much longer.

Just thought I'd get geeky on you.

Do you call people disingenuous to their face? I don't, unless I know them and have enough information to base that opinion on.

I love it when you get geeky with us and invite you to do so more often

But one question that you might not have answered, or perhaps I read over it, can you confirm that this is really an internal e-mail? If so, do you know the person behind the posting, or the leaking (this could not be too many people, right?) And do you plan to take measures to combat such leaks in the future by this or another person?

Naturally I can understand you not wanting to et us to know everything, but I am itnerested, as it can easily be bad for the team to get all sorts of internal messages out in the open, without any context given to them and if it is a person who does have a bone to pick with you, it could well be that he only brings out discrediting or misinterpretable information as to shine a bad light unto your team.

 

[python]

I love it when you get geeky with us and invite you to do so more often

But one question that you might not have answered, or perhaps I read over it, can you confirm that this is really an internal e-mail? If so, do you know the person behind the posting, or the leaking (this could not be too many people, right?) And do you plan to take measures to combat such leaks in the future by this or another person?

Naturally I can understand you not wanting to et us to know everything, but I am itnerested, as it can easily be bad for the team to get all sorts of internal messages out in the open, without any context given to them and if it is a person who does have a bone to pick with you, it could well be that he only brings out discrediting or misinterpretable information as to shine a bad light unto your team.

jv can answer for himself, but lets say he here publicly tells you, 'if i find out who leaked the e-mail, he will be fired on the spot'.

and what do you think the reaction will be ? i mean public reaction. do you think there will be at least 3 in 100 who will not accuse jv of suppressing a whistle blower and marring his own declared transparency ?

it's just naive im to think that there is much benefit to jv conducting his team's business in public. there is too much ignorance amongst the 'average' fans and too much desire to blow up stories for the headliners, amongst the reporters.

otherwise i can pretty much confirm what jv said about the technicalities of the blood testing at the time. i was i recall posing the questions at the time and getting the same answers.

 

[Barrus]

jv can answer for himself, but lets say he here publicly tells you, 'if i find out who leaked the e-mail, he will be fired on the spot'.

and what do you think the reaction will be ? i mean public reaction. do you think there will be at least 3 in 100 who will not accuse jv of suppressing a whistle blower and marring his own declared transparency ?

it's just naive im to think that there is much benefit to jv conducting his team's business in public. there is too much ignorance amongst the 'average' fans and too much desire to blow up stories for the headliners, amongst the reporters.

otherwise i can pretty much confirm what jv said about the technicalities of the blood testing at the time. i was i recall posing the questions at the time and getting the same answers.

I totally understand your point, however part of me thinks that this person either is no longer under their employment or has some other kind of bone to pick. Why else leak a more than 2 year old e-mail.
ANd I totally understand that JV does not want to take public measures, however I can still ask him can't I? It was worth a try

 

[auscyclefan94]

jv can answer for himself, but lets say he here publicly tells you, 'if i find out who leaked the e-mail, he will be fired on the spot'.

and what do you think the reaction will be ? i mean public reaction. do you think there will be at least 3 in 100 who will not accuse jv of suppressing a whistle blower and marring his own declared transparency ?

it's just naive im to think that there is much benefit to jv conducting his team's business in public. there is too much ignorance amongst the 'average' fans and too much desire to blow up stories for the headliners, amongst the reporters.

otherwise i can pretty much confirm what jv said about the technicalities of the blood testing at the time. i was i recall posing the questions at the time and getting the same answers.

well the leaker of the email doesn't work for him

 

[python]

I totally understand your point, however part of me thinks that this person either is no longer under their employment or has some other kind of bone to pick. Why else leak a more than 2 year old e-mail.
ANd I totally understand that JV does not want to take public measures, however I can still ask him can't I? It was worth a try

of course you me anyone can ask. was it worth a try ? if jv answers it, yes. generally, i think he is got little to gain and almost always to lose, to come here at all and entertain some questions. not because of you and me but because it's absolutely a no win situation for him.

as i said, there is so much ignorance in the forums, that he will never get the result a rational explanation or some common sense may offer without jv's ever opening his mouth.

i generally avoid commenting in the jv threads, but here is my last one, why do you think there is sudden increase in the number of threads about him (you know too well yourself) or why there are so many righteous demand for him 'come clean', when his story is essentially the same from the moment he took over the team ?

someone is obviously driving this drivel, no pun intended. guess who ?.

 

[Barrus]

of course you me anyone can ask. was it worth a try ? if jv answers it, yes. generally, i think he is got little to gain and almost always to lose, to come here at all and entertain some questions. not because of you and me but because it's absolutely a no win situation for him.

as i said, there is so much ignorance in the forums, that he will never get the result a rational explanation or some common sense may offer without jv's ever opening his mouth.

i generally avoid commenting in the jv threads, but here is my last one, why do you think there is sudden increase in the number of threads about him (you know too well yourself) or why there are so many righteous demand for him 'come clean', when his story is essentially the same from the moment he took over the team ?

someone is obviously driving this drivel, no pun intended. guess who ?.

I totally see your point and if I was in his position I would not come unto the clinic and try to defend myself and my team against some of the most critical and cynical fans. And the over righteous manner in which certain people approach him, especially a certain ex-member, I am surprised that he even takes the effort. However I am grateful that he does and I believe that perhaps he himself is happy to clear up certain things this way and good for him. I do need to say that certain of the complaints about whether or not he is transparant enough are a bit out of place. He is probably the most open and forthcoming team managers at the moment and the team is quite transparent, obviously not all the information can be made public and it often is threading the waters a little but not open the entire floodgates. But I think this partial transparency for many is even worse than entire secrecy, because they get teased with some info and are than dissatisfied when not all their questions are answered. In this way sneak peek ensures that there is a greater amount of scrutiny than when there was no transparency as all. This combined with the manner in which he and his team have presented themselves as the clean alternative creates higher, and probably too high, standards by fans. Standards which a team can never attain, so in part it is the fault of the team because of a mismanagement of perception and to forget that their claim of transparency would only ensure far greater scrunity and a call for ever increasing transparency.

 

[python]

barrus, the word ‘transparency’ is certainly an operative one as jv himself uses it a lot. It’s a perfectly fair game to scrutinize jv’s own statements.

but is the word ‘transparency’ or the transparency itself at play here ? is transparency not being misused by most (including jv) for what it really supposed to mean - a translucent layer between an observer and the objective reality ?

i suspect we are seeing a confusion between credibility and transparency.

here’s an example you may associate with. (not meant as off topic but a mere illustration).

a poster comes forward and accuses you (in a proper place, of course) of personal bias influencing your moderation. You rebut him with what you believe are public facts regarding your fair actions. the poster presses on. you bend backwards , add words, provide examples, ask for counterexamples…all to no avail. the complainer demands more fairness. You finally tell him, look, dude, you simply cant know everything that’s going on behind the mod closed door to ensure the integrity of my, barrus’s moderating actions. End of the example.

the moment you opened your mouth to say the last sentence you ‘re a doomed man. you could be accused of hiding behind ‘transparency‘. no matter how much you try to prove otherwise. there will never be enough examples, enough clinex in the entire word to wipe away what some persistent and themselves biased posters/observers would consider ’an attempt to hind behind a transparent window’.

the argument (‘the team is responsible for providing more transparency because they advertised transparency) is a catch 22 - a silly dog tail-chasing.

if one is genuinely interested in seriously entertaining jvs team anti-doping stance, the right questions to ask would be NOT to abuse the word 'transparency' but:
is jv credible, how many positives has he got, is there any evidence of his corruption and/or coverups, how does his record compare to the other teams…

transparency can be easily exposed as false if one lacks elementary credibility.

 

[ulrikmm]

Why would clean riders need to be reassured that their lab numbers look okay? Wouldn't they naturally fall within the proper parameters?

Exactly, this is highly suspicious. The doctors and the test are there to guide the doping use.

 

[Barrus]

I think you at least misinterpreted some of what I wrote, or perhaps I was not clear, I was meandering a bit.

the argument (‘the team is responsible for providing more transparency because they advertised transparency) is a catch 22 - a silly dog tail-chasing.

I do not say that the team is responsible for providing more transparency because they advertised it, or at least that was not what I meant. I meant that the team is responsible for creating the cries about transparency and the very high level of scrutiny due to their advertisement, or at least contributed to that. This is a great part of the reason that so much seems to be read into JV's words and the actions of him and the team.

It was mainly a response to the following part of your previous post:

i generally avoid commenting in the jv threads, but here is my last one, why do you think there is sudden increase in the number of threads about him (you know too well yourself) or why there are so many righteous demand for him 'come clean', when his story is essentially the same from the moment he took over the team ?

I believe that the increase and the demand for him to come clean is in large part due to the manner in which the team and JV himself has been advertised.

But further than that I believe we agree on the gist of it

 

[sniper]

Exactly, this is highly suspicious. The doctors and the test are there to guide the doping use.

+1,
why is this topic not addressed?
JV? Answers?
I haven't read this entire thread, but my impression of the leaked email is that it confirms earlier suspitions: the ACE program allows you to micro-dope urself without being caught.

 

[Barrus]

+1,
why is this topic not addressed?
JV? Answers?
I haven't read this entire thread, but my impression of the leaked email is that it confirms earlier suspitions: the ACE program allows you to micro-dope urself without being caught.

Here is your answer

I don't want to start another frenzy by posting, but you I'm happy to give an explanation on this one.

In 2008, blood profiling was brand new and the riders had a lot of questions. One was "Can we see our results?" This email was politely telling them "no" and the reason why. Perception equals reality is just that. If the public or even WADA thought we were giving the riders their results, it would look as if we were providing riders data to help them dope. In my meetings with WADA is 2006 and 2007, where we were conceiving this program, they were insistent that the riders not be given access to the results "quickly"...Of course, a few months after the fact is fine, as its of little value then and a rider may want these for their medical records or to help track training load vs. blood profile. So, this was a nice way of saying "no, you don't get them, but its not because we think you're cheating or that you're little children, but that we must make sure everyone's perception of our team is in line with what the reality is."

I honestly don't think riders have requested any of these results since the email. They do get their UCI quarterlies, which I think is a good thing, as those tests are no used for anti-doping and are performed in any lab you'd like.

I can't help it if Prentice meanders a bit in his writing. He's a doctor, not Bill Bryson.

As far as the press. Yes, we have a strict procedure in releasing blood data:
1. You are an accredited journalist asking for it.
2. You have a hematologist on retainer to help you review the data.

Seems pretty logical, eh? Its the same now as it was in 2008. And if you were a pro rider, i'd imagine you'd want something like this is place to, as opposed to just giving the info away to anyone.

Anyhow, just FYI, legally I could have this post taken down, at least according to the CN legal staff, but I'm choosing to let this stay up, as I'm pretty sick and tired of being accused of not being "really transparent" or whatever the weird "the moon comes and JV will suffer under the shadow of the five a**ed monkey at midnight" that sometimes gets posted here.

So, here's your transparency, approved by JV himself.

Any questions?Just email me or call. Its way easier than this. And I will get back to you. I'm not posting my email or phone number, as I'm already stocked up on Viagra ads, but just call the office and ask. i'll get back to you....as soon as I'm done teaching PVP English.

 

[Anonymous]

well the emails so exciting that none of the cycling press have chosen to report on it today.

 

[sniper]

Here is your answer

Unsatisfiying at best.

Prentice speaks of "perception rather than reality".

Vaughters' answer:
"Perception equals reality"
and
"perception (...) is in line with (...) reality"

See the difference between "rather than" and "equals"/"in line with"? It's a mathematical thing, as in "we have 2 rather than 1" vs. 1 equals 1". It's difficult not to see the difference.
Vaughters sees it, and calls it "Prentice meandering a bit in his writing". Doubtful at best.

Prentice is aguably the one who's gone to school the longest. So why should he be meandering in his language?

 

[sniper]

another worrying issue:
Why was the email leaked?

Quite possibly, the leaker knows that micro-doping is common practice in vaughters' team and perhaps even tolerated, and tries to expose this by leaking this email. I can not see of another reason why he would leak the email (rergardless of whether the email is at all damning or not).

If the leaker knows the entire team is clean and that doping isn't tolerated, then why leak this email to the clinic?

 

[The Hitch]

Boy am i surprised with ACF.

He is one of those that now DOUBTS a ds in a debate about doping.

And on that twitter link he also said this

So all Aus cyclists are clean? I dont believe that at all

It seems that ACF has decided that doping is more widespread in cycling than it seems, and I for one am glad and impressed that he takes this point of view now.

 

[Anonymous]

another worrying issue:
Why was the email leaked?

Quite possibly, the leaker knows that micro-doping is common practice in vaughters' team and perhaps even tolerated, and tries to expose this by leaking this email. I can not see of another reason why he would leak the email (rergardless of whether the email is at all damning or not).

If the leaker knows the entire team is clean and that doping isn't tolerated, then why leak this email to the clinic?

As i said in an earlier post. THe leaker has heard the clinic is a rumour mill, and posted it thinking we would all jump on it, pull it to peices and decide there was a supporting doping policy at garmin. He didnt (on the assumption its a he) credit people here with the intelligence to read it properly.

Either that, or its a threat to JV saying, look, i kept my emails going back to 2008.

 

[hrotha]

another worrying issue:
Why was the email leaked?

Quite possibly, the leaker knows that micro-doping is common practice in vaughters' team and perhaps even tolerated, and tries to expose this by leaking this email. I can not see of another reason why he would leak the email (rergardless of whether the email is at all damning or not).

If the leaker knows the entire team is clean and that doping isn't tolerated, then why leak this email to the clinic?

Well, then wouldn't they have chosen a more damning email to leak? To me it sounds like they chose one that could be interpreted this way, maybe, if you were predisposed to read it in a negative light. Assuming they had access to other emails, of course - but why wouldn't they?

 

[Chuffy]

well the emails so exciting that none of the cycling press have chosen to report on it today.

There you go, proof that they're all in it together, the *******s.




Sorry, I appear to have gone native for a moment.

 

[AussieGoddess]

FFS. Don't act so starstruck.

Why is it "great"? He has many open issues relative to Landis, doping, Lowe, White, etc. Why should he get a pass? So we can ask him what kind of Bordeaux he prefers?

Spare us. He is in a very visible, and self-righteous position. This has come under scrutiny of late and it is very valid to address those open issues.

If you want to "worship", go follow his twitter account. If you want answers to the uncomfortable questions, let the people who like to sit at the adult table push him when he drops by and looks for a seat.

To be honest - I think its great he comes here.

If people took the time to be polite, not bash him over the head but ask honest and respectful questions about actual issues instead of the other tripe then he might come here more often. Might take the time to explain some of the other issues we all query.

But while he gets trashed for taking the time to answer an pretty lame leak such as this .... he isnt likely to try anything deeper or more complicated

 

[sniper]

To be honest - I think its great he comes here.

If people took the time to be polite, not bash him over the head but ask honest and respectful questions about actual issues instead of the other tripe then he might come here more often. Might take the time to explain some of the other issues we all query.

But while he gets trashed for taking the time to answer an pretty lame leak such as this .... he isnt likely to try anything deeper or more complicated

I agree with AussieGoddess: the fact that JV shows himself in the CLINIC is a token of class, and shows why he is arguably the most popular teammanager of many of the CLINIC-posters.

Nonetheless, I'm skeptical about JV "explaining" to us some of the issues we have on our minds.
He's making a living in cycling.

 

[scribe]

Anyhow, just FYI, legally I could have this post taken down, at least according to the CN legal staff, but I'm choosing to let this stay up, as I'm pretty sick and tired of being accused of not being "really transparent" or whatever the weird "the moon comes and JV will suffer under the shadow of the five a**ed monkey at midnight" that sometimes gets posted here.

So, here's your transparency, approved by JV himself.

Love it. But I am sure this will get parsed as a non-denial, denial, denialism.