Is Lance a sociopath?

[Neworld]

If these things were the spoils of doping then all dopers would be filthy rich. Sadly many are poor, dead or facing jail time. These things were not imaginable when he made his choice. You almost go so far to suggest he chose cancer.

It goes against all forms of basic logic and reasoning to deny that athletes choose to dope to (a) maintain a job and their livelihood... or even better (b) to dope to the gills, paying for the best form of PEDs available, to earn the most money they can.

Leave the 'Cancer' card out of this, LA does not own Cancer. Everyday more and more facts are presented showing how he only owns doping. He doped to win and therefore become rich and famous. You're joking when you say that you cannot comprehend this right?

NW

 

[Darryl Webster]

Trying to understand the mind of a sociapath , which I believe Lance to be, is nigh impossible.
The "normal" moral and ethical constraints most people have do not apply.

How do you know if someone is a sociopath?



Answer

Here is a list of ways to identify a sociopath. This list is from "Profile of a Sociopath". Is is a pretty good list of sociopathic indicators.
•Glibness/Superficial Charm
•Manipulative and Conning
•Grandiose Sense of Self
•Pathological Lying
•Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
•Shallow Emotions
•Incapacity for Love
•Need for Stimulation
•Callousness/Lack of Empathy
•Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
•Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
•Irresponsibility/Unreliability
•Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
•Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
•Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
•Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
•Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
•Authoritarian
•Secretive
•Paranoid
•Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
•Conventional appearance
•Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
•Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
•Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
•Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
•Incapable of real human attachment to another
•Unable to feel remorse or guilt
•Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
•May state readily that their goal is to rule the world


(Obviously, in order to be a sociopath a person doesn't have to exhibit anything like all the above. Usually, the lack of a conscience, the manipulation of others, dishonesty and the inability to love and/or have lasting and profound personal relations and cruelty are key symptoms and often much more revealing than having been in trouble with the courts).

Does not Golden Ball exhibit most of the above traits?

 

[Cloxxki]

Does not Golden Ball exhibit most of the above traits?

Holy smokes! That's scary.

Can he plead insanity now?
"Sorry judge, can't help to be a prototype sociopath."

Fans : "Poor Lance had issues he's working on right now".

 

[Darryl Webster]

Holy smokes! That's scary.

Can he plead insanity now?
"Sorry judge, can't help to be a prototype sociopath."

Fans : "Poor Lance had issues he's working on right now".

Highly unlikely due to these two points:
•Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
•Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them

Most pathologies go un diagnosed unless the person A) commits violent crime and is subject to a psychological evaluation or B) voluntry subject themselfs to an assesment because at some leval they come to realise all is not right.
Option B is extreemly unlikely.
The world is ran by sociapaths in the political, corporate and media arena`s.
Very, very few will ever be diagnosed.
All around us sociapaths cause untold damage within there families, friends and communities but its arguable that they also provide much of the impulse to much that is positive.
Add narrcisism , power and authority though and you get the recipie that drives much of the worlds ills.

 

[Cloxxki]

But his lawyers get the well-paid job to keep him out of jail. They may at some point run out of ideas, and offer Lance this strategy.
Do time, or get therapy.

I am of the opinion Lance is just evil, no psychological syndrome.
I once saw a documentary of a young Lance doing long distance training on flat (desert?) roads in the US. Wearing the rainbow jersey if I recall correctly.
Visiting a road side store for some coke (the sugary variety at that time still) or something.

He had this giggle, after a joke he made himself I seem to rememeber, which he should have grown out of at 21-22 y/o, that really got to me. I was a fanboy at the time, but after that it started wearing off.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...
Here is a list of ways to identify a sociopath....

An important reminder, Pharmstrong is an organization, so it's not one puppet master. I would lump Stapleton, Weisel, and probably a few others whose names aren't coming to me at the moment in the same sociopath category.

This kind of behavior is for the most part rewarded. Using the sick and dying as a component of building the myth is seen as a positive trait. Similarly, the founder of Cisco stole software from Stanford and made up a story from whole cloth regarding the origins of the company. I just saw the trailer for the Facebook movie. The founders got rich stealing identities from a University. (Federal crimes even then) The founder's character has to be the good guy otherwise the movie would never have gotten financed.

 

[Anonymous]

How and why did this turn into an Armstrong thread?

 

[JRTinMA]

How and why did this turn into an Armstrong thread?

I was just reading through trying to figure that out, not surprising we think alike as we have that special bond. I have to admit I assisted in derailing my own thread. Yes LA was mentioned by Joe in the interview and Escarabaja posted about his favorite part of the interview and that was the first LA mention, probably harmless. Then along comes Richwagmn, he seems to be the principle LA derailing ***. I should have just dropped it but I took the bait and the piling on began.

This forum needs a LA only area, this sounds crazy but its true. Most narrow minded people would suggest this is what the Clinic is for but that is really a shame. I have read these forums for a long time and the Clinic used to be a really good place to understand doping from a broader perspective. Today its just a mess of baseless rumors and half baked opinions. If there was an LA area doping discussions could be held in the clinic and it could be "educational" again. All of the mindless LA drivel could be in another part of the forum, for all I care it could be lawless, we can call it Mexico.

 

[Darryl Webster]

How about calling it "L A`s Waiting Room?"

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I was just going to keep people on track with that.

There are plenty of threads already on LA, including a dedicated one. This one is about Joe Papp, and the interviews listed in the first page here.

 

[kurtinsc]

Trying to understand the mind of a sociapath , which I believe Lance to be, is nigh impossible.
The "normal" moral and ethical constraints most people have do not apply.

How do you know if someone is a sociopath?



Answer

Here is a list of ways to identify a sociopath. This list is from "Profile of a Sociopath". Is is a pretty good list of sociopathic indicators.
•Glibness/Superficial Charm
•Manipulative and Conning
•Grandiose Sense of Self
•Pathological Lying
•Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
•Shallow Emotions
•Incapacity for Love
•Need for Stimulation
•Callousness/Lack of Empathy
•Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
•Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
•Irresponsibility/Unreliability
•Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
•Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
•Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
•Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
•Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
•Authoritarian
•Secretive
•Paranoid
•Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
•Conventional appearance
•Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
•Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
•Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
•Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
•Incapable of real human attachment to another
•Unable to feel remorse or guilt
•Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
•May state readily that their goal is to rule the world


(Obviously, in order to be a sociopath a person doesn't have to exhibit anything like all the above. Usually, the lack of a conscience, the manipulation of others, dishonesty and the inability to love and/or have lasting and profound personal relations and cruelty are key symptoms and often much more revealing than having been in trouble with the courts).

Does not Golden Ball exhibit most of the above traits?

Not exactly what I'd call accurate.

The term the DSM uses for what is considered a sociopath is antisocial personality disorder.

The key issue for the diagnosis is " a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others".

To be officially diagnosed, you need to repeatedly show 3 of the following:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.

3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.

5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.

6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

What is interesting is how EASY it is to be labeled a sociopath. I know a lot of people who are impulsive and don't plan ahead... and also show agressive behavior and get in fights... and some of them don't honor financial obligations.

In my head... I'd never label them as a sociopath... but I guess they are.

I wonder what else is in my wife's DSM?

 

[kurtinsc]

How and why did this turn into an Armstrong thread?

Because someone essentially said that there's no reason to be mad at Joe, instead be mad at Lance.

Not sure why you couldn't be mad (or be happy) with both... but there you go.

 

[kurtinsc]

And as a last aside... I'd say Lance fits narcissistic personality disorder more closely then anti-social.

 

[JayZee]

Because someone essentially said that there's no reason to be mad at Joe, instead be mad at Lance.

Not sure why you couldn't be mad (or be happy) with both... but there you go.

Exactly my thoughts. Don't hate Joe, direct your anger at LA? Why by angry at/hate either person. Personally, I'll reserve my hate or anger for those who really deserve it, such as murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc.

Armstrong a sociopath? Maybe a narcissist, but aren't most pro athletes? LeMond certainly seems like one. See, now I brought LeMond into it, perfect.

Back to the topic now. Good interview Joe. Keep up the good work.

 

[flicker]

lance is normal i wish we were related

 

[tockit]

But his lawyers get the well-paid job to keep him out of jail. They may at some point run out of ideas, and offer Lance this strategy.
Do time, or get therapy.

I am of the opinion Lance is just evil, no psychological syndrome.
I once saw a documentary of a young Lance doing long distance training on flat (desert?) roads in the US. Wearing the rainbow jersey if I recall correctly.
Visiting a road side store for some coke (the sugary variety at that time still) or something.

He had this giggle, after a joke he made himself I seem to rememeber, which he should have grown out of at 21-22 y/o, that really got to me. I was a fanboy at the time, but after that it started wearing off.

I remember that documentary.

He was on a training ride with Steve Bauer, among others, and when they stopped at the road side store Lance kept saying "Bauer", "Bauer".

It was totally goofy.

 

[redtreviso]

Lance fits the narcissist profile.. Everything he does is a unique and exclusive experience (twitters about his bowel movements).. People like Lance don't "go to the store" they slide across the berber put on their(THE) (fad shoe of the time) get in THE (rover-mini-ferrari-turbo etc) turn on THE garmin, burn THE pirellis, engage THE anti-slip while getting ontop of THE chip and make the pit stop into the store. They use "THE" instead of "my" a lot..To make something special that is not..

 

[Anonymous]

Trying to understand the mind of a sociapath , which I believe Lance to be, is nigh impossible.
The "normal" moral and ethical constraints most people have do not apply.

How do you know if someone is a sociopath?



Answer

Here is a list of ways to identify a sociopath. This list is from "Profile of a Sociopath". Is is a pretty good list of sociopathic indicators.
•Glibness/Superficial Charm
•Manipulative and Conning
•Grandiose Sense of Self
•Pathological Lying
•Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
•Shallow Emotions
•Incapacity for Love
•Need for Stimulation
•Callousness/Lack of Empathy
•Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
•Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
•Irresponsibility/Unreliability
•Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
•Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
•Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
•Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
•Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
•Authoritarian
•Secretive
•Paranoid
•Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
•Conventional appearance
•Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
•Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
•Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
•Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
•Incapable of real human attachment to another
•Unable to feel remorse or guilt
•Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
•May state readily that their goal is to rule the world


(Obviously, in order to be a sociopath a person doesn't have to exhibit anything like all the above. Usually, the lack of a conscience, the manipulation of others, dishonesty and the inability to love and/or have lasting and profound personal relations and cruelty are key symptoms and often much more revealing than having been in trouble with the courts).

Does not Golden Ball exhibit most of the above traits?

Obviously, Lance could win the Sociopath de France more than 7 times based on this list. He covers them all...seriously. I still remember watching him in the stage he won following Casartelli's death pointing at the sky and making a big show. I had the thought that he appeared to be someone who approximates emotions, but does not feel them. I worked in a psych hospital at that point, so I had seen that kind of thing many times. I believe he put on the show so that people would form a positive opinion of him, not because he really felt anything. He found something he could latch onto that was emotional to those around him, and he made himself the center of it that day. Sick, sick stuff.

 

[blackcat]

Obviously, Lance could win the Sociopath de France more than 7 times based on this list. He covers them all...seriously. I still remember watching him in the stage he won following Casartelli's death pointing at the sky and making a big show. I had the thought that he appeared to be someone who approximates emotions, but does not feel them. I worked in a psych hospital at that point, so I had seen that kind of thing many times. I believe he put on the show so that people would form a positive opinion of him, not because he really felt anything. He found something he could latch onto that was emotional to those around him, and he made himself the center of it that day. Sick, sick stuff.

Satre: bad faith

 

[tubularglue]

this is the strangest thread on the forum

 

[180mmCrank]

this is the strangest thread on the forum

Hang around here a bit and you'll see plenty more where this one came from

 

[Martin318is]

this is the strangest thread on the forum

If it were possible to search on posts/threads based upon weirdness, this wouldn't even show up in the first few pages

 

[Digger]

Obviously, Lance could win the Sociopath de France more than 7 times based on this list. He covers them all...seriously. I still remember watching him in the stage he won following Casartelli's death pointing at the sky and making a big show. I had the thought that he appeared to be someone who approximates emotions, but does not feel them. I worked in a psych hospital at that point, so I had seen that kind of thing many times. I believe he put on the show so that people would form a positive opinion of him, not because he really felt anything. He found something he could latch onto that was emotional to those around him, and he made himself the center of it that day. Sick, sick stuff.

My isssue here is that he kept looking to the heavens - strange considering he doesn't believe in God.

 

[The Hitch]

Does Lance have a pet? I heard sociopaths often express their good side on animals, and reserve the pschycho parts for humans.

Seriously though, i always compared mobsters to sports stars -those who will cheat and decieve others, just to win and make money. In many you do see similar tendencies. In my opinion, the same genetic make up which promps someone who grows up around sport, to think that the world revolves around them, and that victory, even at the cost of cheating, is the most important thing in the world, that is the same genetic make up which promps someone growing up around gangs, to become a career sociopath criminal - with no concern for anyone but yourself.

Harsh maybe, but i was only reffering to some sports stars. Considering Armstrongs actions against Simoni, and his comeback and his doping, he might fit the bill. Association football has a lot more imo (considering the very ugly character of some players)

 

[kurtinsc]

Does Lance have a pet? I heard sociopaths often express their good side on animals, and reserve the pschycho parts for humans.

Seriously though, i always compared mobsters to sports stars -those who will cheat and decieve others, just to win and make money. In many you do see similar tendencies. In my opinion, the same genetic make up which promps someone who grows up around sport, to think that the world revolves around them, and that victory, even at the cost of cheating, is the most important thing in the world, that is the same genetic make up which promps someone growing up around gangs, to become a career sociopath criminal - with no concern for anyone but yourself.

Harsh maybe, but i was only reffering to some sports stars. Considering Armstrongs actions against Simoni, and his comeback and his doping, he might fit the bill. Association football has a lot more imo (considering the very ugly character of some players)

Again... the issue with antisocial personality disorder is " There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since the age of 15". Essentially it's normal for children to act this way, but a sociopath continues to do so as an adult. All children disply traits of a sociopath.

Using the DSM traits... I don't think Lance fits perfectly. "Punishing" a rider in a break because he went after your trainer is petty... but not sociopathic. If he rode up and pushed him off his bike... that would fit much closer. Lance doesn't show the impulsivity you'd expect, he hasn't job hopped. He doesn't show a disregard for his own safety. And other behaviors that might fit into the category are a big sketchy. For example he doped, which is grounds for arrest. And yes, he lied about that, which also fits the profile. But that fits at least half the pro-cyclists out there.

The thing with all the various mental disorders is that there are always 3-4 different ones that have a lot in common, but are a separate diagnosis. I'd say Narcissistic personality disorder is the best fit.

-Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
-Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
-Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions). Rarely acknowledges mistakes and/or imperfections
-Requires excessive admiration
-Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
-Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
-Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
-Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
-Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitude.


Based on how he acts in public, that seems like nearly a 100% match. He's not a sociopath in my opinion... he's a narcissist.