Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[The Hitch]

Done.

You were posting in that thread yourself, so you should know

I think he's talking about Walsh. Of course Fermi knows it was brought up in the clinic.

 

[Netserk]

I must be imaging things then. When I watch this video and look at the flags and smoke the vast majority of the time I see a tailwind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk

Add to this reports from riders and the media of a tailwind.

I only saw two from riders. One from Ten Dam (I think) where he said there was a headwind. Another was a (sarcastic) tweet saying that there was a tailwind.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I must be imaging things then. When I watch this video and look at the flags and smoke the vast majority of the time I see a tailwind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk

Add to this reports from riders and the media of a tailwind.

It's been my experience when riding that it's very difficult to tell wind direction from flag waving unless you are right next to / underneath the flag.

I'd be a little surprised if you can tell anything from the low res of that video.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yes, however the link is "unverified" and in isolation would not convince many who require a higher level of confirmation. I mean Nibali has decent Ferrari links but there was no mention of it during the Giro (correct me if wrong), Knaven has fairly dark clouds around him but has that been looked at?

Edit: misinterpreted what Ferminal said

 

[The Hitch]

I must be imaging things then. When I watch this video and look at the flags and smoke the vast majority of the time I see a tailwind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk

Add to this reports from riders and the media of a tailwind.

What reports? Links or it didn't happen. By riders I'm assuming you have more than just Greg Henderson since you used the plural.

It's cancelled our anyway by bauke mollema said it was a strong headwind. The weather reports said it was a headwind.*
The pictures posted on here suggested it was a headwind for more of the climb

And if there was such a tailwind why was froome the only one who put in a super time? Why was everyonen so far down the mountain?

If its worth anything ligget said there was a headwind. Assuming he got that information from somewhere.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I mean from Walsh.

Did Kimmage go after Nibali at all?

Just asking

 

[The Hitch]

I must be imaging things then. When I watch this video and look at the flags and smoke the vast majority of the time I see a tailwind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk

Add to this reports from riders and the media of a tailwind.

What reports? Links or it didn't happen. By riders I'm assuming you have more than just Greg Henderson since you used the plural.

It's cancelled our anyway by bauke mollema said it was a strong headwind. The weather reports said it was a headwind.*
The pictures posted on here suggested it was a headwind for more of the climb

And if there was such a tailwind why was froome the only one who put in a super time? Why was everyonen so far down the mountain?

If its worth anything ligget said there was a headwind. Assuming he got that information from somewhere.

 

[The Hitch]

Did Kimmage go after Nibali at all?

Just asking

Kimmage didn't cover the giro. Only the tour and Nibali wasnt there.

 

[Ferminal]

Did Kimmage go after Nibali at all?

Just asking

I have no idea. What does that have to do with my assertion that Walsh's threshold for suspicion does not appear to be consistent?

 

[Race Radio]

It's been my experience when riding that it's very difficult to tell wind direction from flag waving unless you are right next to / underneath the flag.

I'd be a little surprised if you can tell anything from the low res of that video.

No need to anaylise it like the Zapruder film, It is not that hard. Lots of flags and smoke at street level, most show a tailwind

20 sec
34 sec
40sec (Smoke)
58 sec
1:06
1:52 tail wind Smoke and flag
2:52 side/tail wind
2:57 side/tail
4:05 Tail wind Flag

Also compare the crowds to 2002
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FInF_JCmQ_0

This year there was a lot of protection from the side wind from Camper vans , in 2002 there was hardly any after Chalet Reynard....but I must be imaging it as I have **** for brains

 

[JimmyFingers]

I have no idea. What does that have to do with my assertion that Walsh's threshold for suspicion does not appear to be consistent?

That as a journalist he isn't unique in those regards?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Kimmage didn't cover the giro. Only the tour and Nibali wasnt there.

So he didn't even tweet about what was a very powerful and dominant ride to victory, by someone with Ferrari links?

 

[Race Radio]

What reports? Links or it didn't happen.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-2013-chris-froome-stage-15

I have ridden Ventoux dozens of times. The last part is usually a headwind.The Wind direction on the 14th was unusual,

a howling tailwind

Funny how everyone dismisses Henderson if he does not agree with their theory

 

[thehog]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-2013-chris-froome-stage-15



Funny how everyone dismisses Henderson if he does not agree with their theory

Was that the guy drinking beer on d'Huez while riding his bike? What a prankster!

No one dismissed him. They took it as a joke because many saw the flags and were actually standing on the mountain.

What is being dismissed is your claim that Froome was 12% slower than Mayo's ITT time.

Care to address that? or were you drinking beer with Henderson?

 

[Netserk]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-2013-chris-froome-stage-15

I have ridden Ventoux dozens of times. The last part is usually a headwind.The Wind direction on the 14th was unusual,



Funny how everyone dismisses Henderson if he does not agree with their theory

Am I the only one who read it as sarcasm?

Tailwind up the whole climb helped my watts per kilo guys so don't go getting too impressed by my time up Ventoux.

 

[Ferminal]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-2013-chris-froome-stage-15

I have ridden Ventoux dozens of times. The last part is usually a headwind.The Wind direction on the 14th was unusual,



Funny how everyone dismisses Henderson if he does not agree with their theory

Howling tailwind from the north is a reference to the 200 or so km on the plains where they were heading directly south. That may not have necessarily held true up on Ventoux but if it did it would have been a slight headwind vector.

 

[Benotti69]

Am I the only one who read it as sarcasm?

Nope, i read it that way too, considering the road twists back on itself, the wind changes direction as the road does.

 

[Ferminal]

That as a journalist he isn't unique in those regards?

Of course, but I'm not really interested in a discussion of the relative quality of journalists rather than the information required for an individual to become "suspicious" and whether or not an inconsistency there undermines the strength of claims made (such as the three weeks v one day statement which I am happy to discuss the merits of).

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

RR is right, tailwind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lvWOmG1udGM#t=2421

 

[JimmyFingers]

Of course, but I'm not really interested in a discussion of the relative quality of journalists rather than the information required for an individual to become "suspicious" and whether or not an inconsistency there undermines the strength of claims made (such as the three weeks v one day statement which I am happy to discuss the merits of).

Ok but the chagrin being directed at Walsh is that he called out Michelle Smith and Contador on their performance, both of whom were subsequently popped, but doesn't see Froome/Sky's performance as suspicious, and that his reasoning is, as you put it I believe, 'fragile'? That he no longer judges athletes on performance alone?

I can't guess why he's changed his opinion, if in fact he has. What I will say is that he is closer to the sport and better informed that the vast majority of the people on this forum that have such a problem with him. He tweeted after that long interview he did with Brailsford a long time ago now that he believed Sky were on the level, so he has been consistent at least, and he had this viewpoint before he actually embedded with Sky.

A counter-argument must be why would such a consistent and out-spoken anti-doping journalist who has previously gone after sanctioned dopers like Smith, Contador and Armstrong do an about-turn and side with a team many hold to be suspicious, and more outright condemn?

Or, depending on your opinion, be entirely consistent by calling out dopers and not calling out a clean team in Sky?

It's a subjective call basically. Those that think Sky are doping think he is a hypocrite, those that give them the benefit of the doubt see him as being consistent. And perhaps the benefit of the doubt he affords Sky is the same reason he isn't suspicious of Nibali.

What I am saying is maybe he knows things we don't know. The same sort of things he knew about Lance. Maybe.

 

[GJB123]

Howling tailwind from the north is a reference to the 200 or so km on the plains where they were heading directly south. That may not have necessarily held true up on Ventoux but if it did it would have been a slight headwind vector.

Exactly! The road on the Ventoux after Chalet Reynard goes app. (give or take a few bends ) north-northwest so no way that it was a tailwind up the Ventoux. The video quite clearly shows predominantly crosswinds and some headwinds.

 

[Benotti69]

I am not saying Froome was a somebody, he wasn't. I am saying the size of the improvement from Riis was greater then that of Froome. Riis went from a big guy who could not climb with the leaders to a guy ripping 6.7 w/kg. Of course this vast improvement is likely due to the doping products available at the time. Nobody can hit 64% now.

When Riis suddenly got 5th, then 3rd, then 1st late in his career everyone sat up and took notice. Everyone jumped on the EPO train because they saw Riis making $$$$. I do not hear the same response from Pro riders re. Froome.....but perhaps that is because nobody knows what he is doing

The idea that Brailsford would not know what a rider is doing seems hard to believe. The timing of training camps, the racing schedule, all those supposedly 'marginal gains' that Sky implements, makes it very difficult to think that Sky wouldn't know if a rider was doping without them knowing.

Take Froome, he is about to be offloaded when he pulls off a second in the Vuelta, which he could've won if he had not been babysitting Wiggins.

Now if that happened to the surprise of Sky dont you think they would be watching and checking him at every opportunity to protect their 'clean' image?

Nope Sky are doing the doping of their riders.

 

[Race Radio]

Exactly! The road on the Ventoux after Chalet Reynard goes app. (give or take a few bends ) north-northwest so no way that it was a tailwind up the Ventoux. The video quite clearly shows predominantly crosswinds and some headwinds.

If you notice the video the crosswinds are from the south. No surprise at 6,000 feet

Again, I suggest actually watching the video. There are plenty of road level flags and smoke that show a tail wind or a side wind. Very few that show a head wind.....Which is why Henderson said there was a strong tailwind.

 

[Race Radio]

Am I the only one who read it as sarcasm?

Yes, he was taking a sarcastic poke at the flood of people who were trying to figure out if a rider was doping by his climbing times, yet ignore some of the key elements that effect those times.

 

[Ferminal]

It's a subjective call basically. Those that think Sky are doping think he is a hypocrite, those that give them the benefit of the doubt see him as being consistent. And perhaps the benefit of the doubt he affords Sky is the same reason he isn't suspicious of Nibali.

I don't think he's a hypocrite, I just don't see his reasoning as formidable, thus it is fair for avid followers of the sport (regardless of their view) to not see his writings as doing anything to further our existing understandings and in any way affect our answer to the ultimate question. Again, if he has made a meaningful contribution to this topic I'm up for debating it.