Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[del1962]

Often being the outsider in such instances like Walsh was with USPS to being an insider results in a different determination to find out and report the truth.

With Roche wasnt he more of an insider though?

I mean he co-authored his biography, this did not stop Walsh looking at evidence to his connections to a certain doctor.

 

[martinvickers]

Often being the outsider in such instances like Walsh was with USPS to being an insider results in a different determination to find out and report the truth.

Really? then why was Kimmage so keen to do it? Was he similarly 'bought' by Garmin?

 

[thehog]

Really? then why was Kimmage so keen to do it? Was he similarly 'bought' by Garmin?

Few deep breaths Martin. You’re in hyper-aggressive mood today. More so than normal.

 

[martinvickers]

Few deep breaths Martin. You’re in hyper-aggressive mood today. More so than normal.

Ball not man, hog.

Answer the question.

 

[thehog]

Ball not man, hog.

Answer the question.

No.

It's a dumb question.

This is the Walsh thread.

Anwser my question instead of throwing PK into the debate.

Nothing to do with him El Deflecto.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Few deep breaths Martin. You’re in hyper-aggressive mood today. More so than normal.

This appears to answer the timing of why you felt the need to post an irrelevant vague point in this thread a week after the last post here.

 

[martinvickers]

No.

And you're done, laddie.


-----

If anyone else wants to address the question, I'm happy to continue a sensible discourse.

 

[sniper]

Really? then why was Kimmage so keen to do it? Was he similarly 'bought' by Garmin?

Like the case of sky is less clearcut than the case of garmin, the case of walsh is less clearcut than the case of kimmage.
Sky and walsh are nobrainers.
garmin is perception is reality.
kimmage is the real deal.

 

[martinvickers]

Like the case of sky is less clearcut than the case of garmin, the case of walsh is less clearcut than the case of kimmage.
Sky and walsh are nobrainers.
garmin is perception is reality.
kimmage is the real deal.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what you're trying to say here. A couple of random assertions, but no arguments, let alone evidence.

The position set out by Hog before he...well, hogged...was that an 'insider' has a "different determination" than an outsider when it comes to finding the truth.

No ifs, no buts. No Kimmage exemption, quite rightly.

So the simple question arose, if being an insider is so fatal to truth finding as Hog declared, why did Kimmage, who has attacked Walsh over his work with Sky this year, why did Kimmage...

a) become an 'insider' with Garmin
b) attempt to become an 'insider' with Sky
c) become so offended an when he wasn't able to be an 'insider' with Sky.


So far, we've had hog simply refuse to answer and thus disqualify himself, and now this declaration that Kimmage is "the real deal", with no evidence or explanation for why the rule doesn't apply to him beyond what appears to be a religious credo.

Now, I am grateful you at least answered the question, fair play, but I'd be grateful for a bit more than this, because there's no there there at the moment.

 

[Benotti69]

a) become an 'insider' with Garmin

At the time he became an insider with Sky, blood doping was the PED of choice.

b) attempt to become an 'insider' with Sky

HE was invited by Brailsford, he accepted on the basis he got full access from teh get go. They changed he T&Cs, but you know this MV, but trying to spin it to look like Kimmage wa at fault.

c) become so offended an when he wasn't able to be an 'insider' with Sky.

Got a link.

Kimmage has questioned Sky, rightly so, Wigans finished over 3 hours behind the 2007 winner, then won it in 2012. How did Wigans do this has not been answered? That Wigans put the kybosh on Kimmage's time with Sky still does not mean he cannot ask these legitimate questions.

That Walsh has accepted everything Sky have provided and not dug deeper is not acceptible. Whether Walsh is willfully playing the part Sky pr tool or has been blinded does not mean he is above been questioned.

This aint the Kimmage thread!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm sorry, but I don't see what you're trying to say here. A couple of random assertions, but no arguments, let alone evidence.

The position set out by Hog before he...well, hogged...was that an 'insider' has a "different determination" than an outsider when it comes to finding the truth.

No ifs, no buts. No Kimmage exemption, quite rightly.

So the simple question arose, if being an insider is so fatal to truth finding as Hog declared, why did Kimmage, who has attacked Walsh over his work with Sky this year, why did Kimmage...

a) become an 'insider' with Garmin
b) attempt to become an 'insider' with Sky
c) become so offended an when he wasn't able to be an 'insider' with Sky.


So far, we've had hog simply refuse to answer and thus disqualify himself, and now this declaration that Kimmage is "the real deal", with no evidence or explanation for why the rule doesn't apply to him beyond what appears to be a religious credo.

Now, I am grateful you at least answered the question, fair play, but I'd be grateful for a bit more than this, because there's no there there at the moment.

Hi Martin,
You ask some interesting questions and raise some interesting points - however, this is a nobrainer#

What does that actually mean? Nothing, its just a nobrainer#

Anything you post, prove, link to or show can be dismissed as a nobrainer#

Is this done to encourage discussion and show a point or just a technique to deflect, should be a nobrainer#

 

[Dr. Maserati]

At the time he became an insider with Sky, blood doping was the PED of choice.



HE was invited by Brailsford, he accepted on the basis he got full access from teh get go. They changed he T&Cs, but you know this MV, but trying to spin it to look like Kimmage wa at fault.



Got a link.

Kimmage has questioned Sky, rightly so, Wigans finished over 3 hours behind the 2007 winner, then won it in 2012. How did Wigans do this has not been answered? That Wigans put the kybosh on Kimmage's time with Sky still does not mean he cannot ask these legitimate questions.

That Walsh has accepted everything Sky have provided and not dug deeper is not acceptible. Whether Walsh is willfully playing the part Sky pr tool or has been blinded does not mean he is above been questioned.

This aint the Kimmage thread!

Hold on - no-one said it was Kimmages fault, but the fact remains he was willing to go 'inside' with Sky (while working with Murdoch owned ST) yet when Walsh does so, he is viewed as a sellout and that he cannot write articles against Sky because of this (ignoring that he has written harsh pieces on them).

 

[Benotti69]

Hold on - no-one said it was Kimmages fault, but the fact remains he was willing to go 'inside' with Sky (while working with Murdoch owned ST) yet when Walsh does so, he is viewed as a sellout and that he cannot write articles against Sky because of this (ignoring that he has written harsh pieces on them).

Are you insinuating Kimmage called Walsh a sellout?

Got a link?

b) attempt to become an 'insider' with Sky

read the word 'attempt', that's the clue to my answer, Kimmage was 'invited', he did not 'attempt' to go with Sky.

 

[martinvickers]

Are you insinuating Kimmage called Walsh a sellout?

No, he's insinuating you did. And he'd be right.

read the word 'attempt', that's the clue to my answer, Kimmage was 'invited', he did not 'attempt' to go with Sky.

Did he do it unwillingly? Was he cajoled? An attempt to create a distinction were none exists.

 

[martinvickers]

At the time he became an insider with Sky, blood doping was the PED of choice.

So? What difference does that make?

HE was invited by Brailsford, he accepted on the basis he got full access from teh get go. They changed he T&Cs, but you know this MV, but trying to spin it to look like Kimmage wa at fault.

Leaving aside the accusation of bad faith, I made no such suggestion; you've read that entirely yourself.

Got a link.

Kimmage's Twitter. In particular a blow by blow account of his aborted imbedding. It was clear and unequivocal. go and read it.

That Walsh has accepted everything Sky have provided and not dug deeper is not acceptible. Whether Walsh is willfully playing the part Sky pr tool or has been blinded does not mean he is above been questioned.

This aint the Kimmage thread!

Simply not supported by, you know, the facts. But since you don't actually read the actual articles arising from the imbedding, you wouldn't know that, would you?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Are you insinuating Kimmage called Walsh a sellout?

Got a link?

I certainly did not insinuate anything regarding Kimmage.

Amazing how you request a link for something.

read the word 'attempt', that's the clue to my answer, Kimmage was 'invited', he did not 'attempt' to go with Sky.

Again, if you actually read what Walsh has written, it is clear Walsh got his 'invite' from Brailsford which would be the same as what happened Kimmage.

 

[Benotti69]

I certainly did not insinuate anything regarding Kimmage.

Yet you had no problem taking my post out of context

Amazing how you request a link for something.

So got a link or Not?

Again, if you actually read what Walsh has written, it is clear Walsh got his 'invite' from Brailsford which would be the same as what happened Kimmage.

I never said Walsh didn't get an invite. Why are you trying to twist what i am posting?

 

[horsinabout]

I'm sorry, but I don't see what you're trying to say here. A couple of random assertions, but no arguments, let alone evidence.

The position set out by Hog before he...well, hogged...was that an 'insider' has a "different determination" than an outsider when it comes to finding the truth.

No ifs, no buts. No Kimmage exemption, quite rightly.

So the simple question arose, if being an insider is so fatal to truth finding as Hog declared, why did Kimmage, who has attacked Walsh over his work with Sky this year, why did Kimmage...

a) become an 'insider' with Garmin
b) attempt to become an 'insider' with Sky
c) become so offended an when he wasn't able to be an 'insider' with Sky.

So far, we've had hog simply refuse to answer and thus disqualify himself, and now this declaration that Kimmage is "the real deal", with no evidence or explanation for why the rule doesn't apply to him beyond what appears to be a religious credo.

Now, I am grateful you at least answered the question, fair play, but I'd be grateful for a bit more than this, because there's no there there at the moment.

I think this might be worth a reply, I’ll have a go and do my best.

Firstly, the three points made here regarding Kimmage draws an assumption that Kimmage 'wants to become an insider'. I think this may be incorrect. I feel what Kimmage wants is transparency in professional cycling teams, not necessarily the same as being an insider, although to gain transparency one needs access to teams on a daily basis during preparation for and actually during stage races.

a) become an 'insider' with Garmin
b) attempt to become an 'insider' with Sky
c) become so offended an when he wasn't able to be an 'insider' with Sky.

So to address each point here in turn, I will say......

a. What Kimmage gets from Garmin that he doesn't get from Sky (excluding all innuendos) is transparency. Garmin are not the same as Sky. Sky have a no tolerance drug policy and PR image to match, whereas Garmin has it's fair share of reformed dopers. Garmins 'clean stance' is effectively a PR stunt for an acceptance towards 'muted doping' that has within it a reformed approach towards ex-dopers.

b. No, I suspect what Kimmage is striving for is more transparency.

c. No, pi$sed off at the lack of transparency from Sky.

Does this mean that Kimmage is the 'real deal'? If Kimmage wants access to teams for greater transparent and openess, then the answer is yes. I think he may well be, because it shows a commitment to the sport that Walsh does not have. Walsh has a commitment to his puppet masters, hence being on the 'bandwagon'.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yet you had no problem taking my post out of context


So got a link or Not?



I never said Walsh didn't get an invite. Why are you trying to twist what i am posting?

This appears nothing more than a willful dishonest attempt at deflection.

However, I will allow you the opportunity to clarify - I did not take your post our of context - and what is it you wish me to link to?

 

[Benotti69]

Hold on - no-one said it was Kimmages fault, but the fact remains he was willing to go 'inside' with Sky (while working with Murdoch owned ST) yet when Walsh does so, he is viewed as a sellout and that he cannot write articles against Sky because of this (ignoring that he has written harsh pieces on them).

Kimmage was 'invited' by Brailsford. Of course he was willing at that stage to go inside. It was 2010 and we did not know the PR BS they would've been coming out with subsequently. Kimmage would've also got access to interview Mick Barry. Something that was denied to Kimmage (whether before the TdF 2010 or after i dont recall).

For Walsh to embed with the team in 2013 was 3 years too late. Kimmage pointed this out that he would learn nothing on the inside and guess what? He learned zilch.

However, I will allow you the opportunity to clarify - I did not take your post our of context - and what is it you wish me to link to?

the above points out how you took it out of context, which led to my response to you.

I was replying to MV about his spin on Kimmage 'attempt' to become an insider. Kimmage did not 'attempt', he was 'invited' and accepted on the basis that it was full access, when that was denied he told Brailsford that it was not going to happen unless full access. It was not an attempt.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Here we go again..well...

The lunatic is on the grass
The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
Got to keep the loonies on the path
The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy'S brings more

 

[horsinabout]

Here we go again..well...

The lunatic is on the grass
The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
Got to keep the loonies on the path
The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy'S brings more

Pink Floyd?

Gentlemen you are bickering and it is very discourteous to other posters. It is what puts me off posting here, because you are not tackling the issues. Think about it

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Kimmage was 'invited' by Brailsford. Of course he was willing at that stage to go inside. It was 2010 and we did not know the PR BS they would've been coming out with subsequently. Kimmage would've also got access to interview Mick Barry. Something that was denied to Kimmage (whether before the TdF 2010 or after i dont recall).

For Walsh to embed with the team in 2013 was 3 years too late. Kimmage pointed this out that he would learn nothing on the inside and guess what? He learned zilch.



the above points out how you took it out of context, which led to my response to you.

I was replying to MV about his spin on Kimmage 'attempt' to become an insider. Kimmage did not 'attempt', he was 'invited' and accepted on the basis that it was full access, when that was denied he told Brailsford that it was not going to happen unless full access. It was not an attempt.

Well, that is you taking exception to MVs point that PK was looking to be inside Team Sky in 2010 (which is true)- saying he wanted to be an "insider' is hardly saying Kimmage is at fault, which is what you suggested.

.....
HE was invited by Brailsford, he accepted on the basis he got full access from teh get go. They changed he T&Cs, but you know this MV, but trying to spin it to look like Kimmage wa at fault.
....

So that as well as you ignoring what I was supposed to link to suggests that there was nothing of substance in your post.

 

[Benotti69]

Well, that is you taking exception to MVs point that PK was looking to be inside Team Sky in 2010 (which is true)- saying he wanted to be an "insider' is hardly saying Kimmage is at fault, which is what you suggested.

I disagree. MV tried to spin it as Kimmage was the one trying to get inside Sky.

So that as well as you ignoring what I was supposed to link to suggests that there was nothing of substance in your post.

meh

 

[gooner]

Kimmage was 'invited' by Brailsford. Of course he was willing at that stage to go inside. It was 2010 and we did not know the PR BS they would've been coming out with subsequently. Kimmage would've also got access to interview Mick Barry. Something that was denied to Kimmage (whether before the TdF 2010 or after i dont recall).

For Walsh to embed with the team in 2013 was 3 years too late. Kimmage pointed this out that he would learn nothing on the inside and guess what? He learned zilch..

It's either a great way of showing transparency or not. Kimmage said it is, so why doesn't he recognise it with Walsh now? He was pre-judging all this.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/kim...and-froome-better-walk-the-walk-29424052.html

It's clearly evident in the video above he pays a lot of credence to this and remember Walsh has been with Sky even more longer than Kimmage was with Garmin in taking in the Giro and training camps. I haven't heard Walsh say he has been refused any access.

3 years later is not an argument. That only makes it sound like this sort of stuff is only good enough for Kimmage. The success is of a lot higher level now than it was back then.