Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[Benotti69]

And I have the right to pick flaws in your argument as I see fit. To me it is a set default position and it was backed up when I remember you going into the JV thread throwing the same argument around only 2 minutes after he crossed the line to win LBL.

I'm not surprised to see sniper agree either. He just said he's a doper out of nowhere after he beat Fuglsang at the Tour.

A short narrowed minded view.

They may appear as flaws to you, a fan of Martins and therefore biased.

My line is the sport has not changed its doping culture. The testing is easily defeated and the UCI did not police it in any kind of anti doping manner and to win a monument where the dopers are going take the greatest risks for the greatest rewards i find it very difficult to believe a clean rider can win.

My view is my own. I am not judge and jury. I call it as i see it. Y'all free to slam that in any manner you so please.

This is the Walsh thread and I will not post anymore about Dan Martin or LeMond in this thread.

 

[Benotti69]

That's all any of us can do. If we were able to hold our water a litle better, and not attempt to make certainties of bare hunches in the mean time, we might get a little further

Oh dear, it is a forum. There is no black cap worn here. As if a forum could cure the ills of a sport never mind have a proper conversation about the secret and dark side of said sport to which none of us are privy.

 

[pmcg76]

utterly confused - do you mean Walsh v Kimmage?

No, all current combatants apart from sniper are Irish. Just need Dr.Mas to show up

 

[Benotti69]

Sorry to **** in...cogadh cathartha na heireann of CN? carry on, folks.

siete una persona meravigliosa

 

[martinvickers]

No, all current combatants apart from sniper are Irish. Just need Dr.Mas to show up

Benotti's irish? Sweet mother mary.

F***k me we could start a fight in an empty room. No wonder Enda's f***ing the place up; anybody who could be watching his is getting into fights about bikes.

 

[martinvickers]

siete una persona meravigliosa

grazie, sei troppo gentile.

 

[pmcg76]

Benotti's irish? Sweet mother mary.

F***k me we could start a fight in an empty room. No wonder Enda's f***ing the place up; anybody who could be watching his is getting into fights about bikes.

Bikes are more important

 

[martinvickers]

Bikes are more important

This is true. Now have a sudden urge to read the third policeman and bring the whole thing full circle...

 

[gooner]

It's like the arguing for the abolishment of the Seanad all over again.

 

[Benotti69]

You don't start from the position of suspicion, you start from the position of guilt and then work backward. There is a huge difference.

I start from a position of the sport has not changed its doping culture. If it had there would've be huge outrage from riders and teams as this years Giro.

If that means I start from a position of guilt then that is what it is. The history of the sport has shown i am pretty close to being spot on. I hate the doping and the change has to come from within.

 

[pmcg76]

I start from a position of the sport has not changed its doping culture. If it had there would've be huge outrage from riders and teams as this years Giro.

If that means I start from a position of guilt then that is what it is. The history of the sport has shown i am pretty close to being spot on. I hate the doping and the change has to come from within.

No you expect cyclists to be different from all other walks of live. How many people are getting screwed over daily in their jobs and how many kick up a fuss and how many just keep their head down and get on with it. As it is all Irish, why was their not more of a fuss about the way the banks screwed over the country. An impression I get is that many riders are quite forthcoming around friends and people they know but just don't want the hassle or attention that comes with being a loudmouth.

You keep saying nothing has changed but there are actual pro's posting here, do you ever ask them for their insight or do they have no credibility in your eyes. Talk to them and see what they think, it's not hard really. You just assume you are correct even though you appear to have no real insight into anything connected to procycling.

 

[gooner]

They may appear as flaws to you, a fan of Martins and therefore biased.

My line is the sport has not changed its doping culture. The testing is easily defeated and the UCI did not police it in any kind of anti doping manner and to win a monument where the dopers are going take the greatest risks for the greatest rewards i find it very difficult to believe a clean rider can win.

My view is my own. I am not judge and jury. I call it as i see it. Y'all free to slam that in any manner you so please.

This is the Walsh thread and I will not post anymore about Dan Martin or LeMond in this thread.

Yeah, I like Dan but does it compromise my opinion on whether I think he's doping or not, no it doesn't. And if you're asking do I think he is doping, based on his performances, the team he is with and career path so far, I see nothing to tell me he is.

But I judge this on its own merits and not because he wins a few races he is a doper because other dopers are in it.

With that mindset, everyone is doping or is there anyone that you maybe inclined to believe?

 

[sniper]

Yeah, I like Dan but does it compromise my opinion on whether I think he's doping or not, no it doesn't. And if you're asking do I think he is doping, based on his performances, the team he is with and career path so far, I see nothing to tell me he is.

But I judge this on its own merits and not because he wins a few races he is a doper because other dopers are in it.

With that mindset, everyone is doping or is there anyone that you maybe inclined to believe?

excellent way of saying dont bother me with the facts.

give me one reason why dan deserves benefit of the doubt, and i mean from a common sense point of view (obviously not from legal point of view)

 

[red_flanders]

Is there a Dan Martin thread?

 

[sniper]

No it's not common sense. That's a bit like saying a lot of Catholic priests were child molesters, thus all current Catholic priests are likely to fall into the same bracket. Its an over simplistic small minded way of looking at things.

If you believe that nothing ever changes, they you live in a very paranoid delusional world.

I appreciate the novelty of your argument, but it suggests you're still quite far removed from understanding what doping is actually about.

I think it hasn't quite dawned upon you that there are different motivations behind child abuse/molestation on the one hand and PED (ab)use on the other. As you may or may not know, cyclists dope to get a contract, make a living, feed wife and kids, etc. So iow: it's existentially motivated.

Child abuse among priests, thank god, isn't.
Priests will continue to make a good living even without laying their hands on minors.

 

[martinvickers]

excellent way of saying dont bother me with the facts.

give me one reason why dan deserves benefit of the doubt, and i mean from a common sense point of view (obviously not from legal point of view)

Irony

c.500BC - October 14 2013

From exhaustion.

Deeply regretted by his friends and aquaintences. No flowers please.

 

[gooner]

excellent way of saying dont bother me with the facts.

give me one reason why dan deserves benefit of the doubt, and i mean from a common sense point of view (obviously not from legal point of view)

No, it means judge it independently than to do what Benotti does and bring Armstrong, McQuaid, and doping doctors to justify calling him a doper and use it to say "I won't be fooled again". This shouldn't be about our opinions being vindicated and say everyone is a doper in the hope of saying "I was right in the first place" when someone gets popped. And while we are it, what doping doctors has Martin being linked with?

Read my post again.

His career path is one of more realism. He has showed early promise from his Lombardy and Catalonia performances in 09 and has been with Garmin since turning pro coming into the sport. From that there is no big leap to him winning races like Catalonia and LBL four years later. This only shows he is fulfilling on his early potential that we seen years earlier. He has criticised the UCI for no doping controls at certain races. After his stage win in the Tour he suffered hugely as the race progressed into the final week and in the end it was a just a race of survival for him. He can't time trial to save his life and this is something which has been consistent over the years. His GC finishes in GTs are nothing suspicious of note for the talent he possesses. I would say he has even underachieved in this area.

 

[sniper]

His career path is one of more realism. He has showed early promise from his Lombardy and Catalonia performances in 09 and has been with Garmin since turning pro coming into the sport. From that there is no big leap to him winning races like Catalonia and LBL four years later. This only shows he is fulfilling on his early potential that we seen years earlier. He has criticised the UCI for no doping controls at certain races. After his stage win in the Tour he suffered hugely as the race progressed into the final week and in the end it was a just a race of survival for him. He can't time trial to save his life and this is something which has been consistent over the years. His GC finishes in GTs are nothing suspicious of note for the talent he possesses. I would say he has even underachieved in this area.

some fair points.

still, considering his talent, and according to Walsh' logic, we'd probably have expected him to be a podium contender at the TdF rather than win LBL.

 

[Benotti69]

Benotti's irish? Sweet mother mary.

F***k me we could start a fight in an empty room. No wonder Enda's f***ing the place up; anybody who could be watching his is getting into fights about bikes.

Wrong again. I fell out in the southern hemispehere.

 

[martinvickers]

Wrong again. I fell out in the southern hemispehere.

I'm tempted to say, "worse still, an Aussie!" ;-)

I'm afraid I was only going by the info from our fellow poster - I never took you for Irish. Hence my surprise!

 

[Benotti69]

I'm tempted to say, "worse still, an Aussie!" ;-)

I'm afraid I was only going by the info from our fellow poster - I never took you for Irish. Hence my surprise!

Be careful not to insult the Australians who are a minestrone of Europe's migrants, whether forced or not.

i have a foot in both hemispheres.

 

[pmcg76]

I appreciate the novelty of your argument, but it suggests you're still quite far removed from understanding what doping is actually about.

I think it hasn't quite dawned upon you that there are different motivations behind child abuse/molestation on the one hand and PED (ab)use on the other. As you may or may not know, cyclists dope to get a contract, make a living, feed wife and kids, etc. So iow: it's existentially motivated.

Child abuse among priests, thank god, isn't.
Priests will continue to make a good living even without laying their hands on minors.

This is about using the sins of others to condemn those who have no evidence of having sinned. In no walk of life is that the norm.

Also if you are talking about motivation, are people just clones who have the exact same motivations etc? That is like saying all people are equally motivated by money. If I offered a job that paid €500k a year but it required you to move country and work 60 hours a week for the next 10 years, how many people would take it. How about if I offered the same job for €250k but you only worked 50 hours a week and didn't move country.

Saying that all cyclists will do what it takes as they are all equally motivated by success shows a complete lack of understanding of the human mindset. But then that doesn't surprise me coming from you.

There were guys who were undoubtedly motivated to win who chose not to dope like LeMond, Delion etc, Surely their motivation were just the same as the dopers they beat. You guys try and potray the modern peloton as equal to the worst of the EPO era when in reality, very few people have any idea of how good or bad it is. Why not ask some of the current pros who post here how bad things currently.

 

[sniper]

This is about using the sins of others to condemn those who have no evidence of having sinned. In no walk of life is that the norm.

Also if you are talking about motivation, are people just clones who have the exact same motivations etc? That is like saying all people are equally motivated by money. If I offered a job that paid €500k a year but it required you to move country and work 60 hours a week for the next 10 years, how many people would take it. How about if I offered the same job for €250k but you only worked 50 hours a week and didn't move country.

Saying that all cyclists will do what it takes as they are all equally motivated by success shows a complete lack of understanding of the human mindset. But then that doesn't surprise me coming from you.

There were guys who were undoubtedly motivated to win who chose not to dope like LeMond, Delion etc, Surely their motivation were just the same as the dopers they beat. You guys try and potray the modern peloton as equal to the worst of the EPO era when in reality, very few people have any idea of how good or bad it is. Why not ask some of the current pros who post here how bad things currently.

don't agree with everything, and i stick to my point that the motivations are quite different.
the motivation for doping in topsport is such that it's plausible to assume it won't easily disappear.
more likely, as the money gets better, the doping'll get worse, especially as long as the ADAs are not sufficiently funded.
i lack the time to answer you in more detail, but you do make some good points, thanks.

 

[Benotti69]

This is about using the sins of others to condemn those who have no evidence of having sinned. In no walk of life is that the norm.

Also if you are talking about motivation, are people just clones who have the exact same motivations etc? That is like saying all people are equally motivated by money. If I offered a job that paid €500k a year but it required you to move country and work 60 hours a week for the next 10 years, how many people would take it. How about if I offered the same job for €250k but you only worked 50 hours a week and didn't move country.

Saying that all cyclists will do what it takes as they are all equally motivated by success shows a complete lack of understanding of the human mindset. But then that doesn't surprise me coming from you.

There were guys who were undoubtedly motivated to win who chose not to dope like LeMond, Delion etc, Surely their motivation were just the same as the dopers they beat. You guys try and potray the modern peloton as equal to the worst of the EPO era when in reality, very few people have any idea of how good or bad it is. Why not ask some of the current pros who post here how bad things currently.

very few people have any idea of how good or bad it is.

So why defend it when you know the history proves otherwise? Nothing changed. After Festina the 99 tour was declared the The Tour De Clean.

After Armstrong left it '05 was clean, then after '06, then '08 yadayadayada......

Why not ask some of the current pros who post here how bad things currently.

Yeah, that will really get to the truth, hey Jens, ever dope?

The culture of doping has not changed. There has been nearly nothing to change it. The only change came in France when they criminalised it,hence the move of pros across the border to Girona or Monaco.

If doping was criminalised in the EU, I bet most pros would move to South Africa or Swizterland....

The culture has not changed. The doctors are still in circulation, the dealers never get busted, the soignuers, masseueses, DS, mechanics etc who all profit from doping, they haven't gone away. Why would they?

 

[pmcg76]

So why defend it when you know the history proves otherwise? Nothing changed. After Festina the 99 tour was declared the The Tour De Clean.

After Armstrong left it '05 was clean, then after '06, then '08 yadayadayada......



Yeah, that will really get to the truth, hey Jens, ever dope?

The culture of doping has not changed. There has been nearly nothing to change it. The only change came in France when they criminalised it,hence the move of pros across the border to Girona or Monaco.

If doping was criminalised in the EU, I bet most pros would move to South Africa or Swizterland....

The culture has not changed. The doctors are still in circulation, the dealers never get busted, the soignuers, masseueses, DS, mechanics etc who all profit from doping, they haven't gone away. Why would they?

Hey the IRA never went away either but things are most definitely differently nowadays.

No the 99 Tour was named the Tour of Redemption optimistically by the ASO beforehand. There was cautious optimism that things had improved(which was correct), it didn't last.

I never heard anyone declare cycling to be cleaner 05 or 06, this is another myth created in the clinic. Perhaps you could provide some evidence to back up your claims.

What pros moved across the border after the French made doping illegal?? As has been pointed out a million times, the Postal boys were already based in Girona pre 98. It was only really Armstrong who moved along with Hamilton who had moved from Girona to Nice. You make it sound like there was a whole rush of riders.

Monaco I think is easy to explain? Tax haven.

So taking your logic about the French cleaning up due to criminal laws, we now have the French performing better in recent years which logically would suggest things are cleaning up overall but that is not how you see it. If the French are indeed doping up again, what have foreign riders to be scared of nowadays by living in France?, if I am not mistaken, doping is now a criminal offence in Spain as well.