Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[pmcg76]

They first moved to the continent together in 1981. I'm guessing it wasn't to have her there as a mule.

Yeah, they lived in Belgium but she still went to races, it was definitely not the done thing at the time to have your wife coming to actual races.

Think of Stephen Roche and his you don't bring the wife to the office quote.

 

[red_flanders]

Yeah, they lived in Belgium but she still went to races, it was definitely not the done thing at the time to have your wife coming to actual races.

Think of Stephen Roche and his you don't bring the wife to the office quote.

Yep, no argument. Don't think it was anything more than Lemond doing his own thing, do you?

 

[Digger]

Ok, clearly you were somehow close enough to Walsh to be able to call him on the phone. I would imagine you are now black-listed.

Having thought about the GT v Classic doping logistics thing, I have to say Walsh's point does have a grain of reality about it. Not to say I agree with his overall sentiment but it does seem to have some legitimacy.

Lets say you want to peak for the Cobbled Classics or perhaps the Ardennes classics, then clearly you can dope up the week before at home in privacy and then just fly in the day before the event or maybe two days beforehand and do the race. You can then return home again and do another cycle before the next race.

Clearly you can dope up for the first week of a GT as well but then you will need a top-up at some point. Think the 99 Tour here and Lance v the rest. So either you do like the classic's rider and leave the GT which I think most people would agree would cause suspicion, alternatively you go the moto-man type approach which to me anyway is more complicated as it means getting the PEDs to the athlete rather than the athlete going to where the PEDs are. Think as well, that this process might have to be performed more than once over a three week period.

I am not sure how easy it would be to do a moto-man thing nowadays but even back then in 99, it is clear that the logistics involved were not to the taste of all the teams.

I am not saying it is impossible to dope at GTs, clearly it isn't but it would definitely would require more logistics to do so than for a one day race.

Maybe I am blacklisted - doesn't bother me as I am sure it doesn't matter to him what I think.
You are missing one key point...he said you couldn't dope every three or four days...you don't need to do it that often in a GT.

Secondly, forget Walsh and Sky for a second...Alberto clearly blood doped...logistics weren't an issue there.

 

[hrotha]

I think you guys are arguing over nothing, as you basically agree on what matters. Yes, doping in a GT is harder, logistically, but where Walsh's argument falls apart is that just because it's harder it doesn't mean it's particularly hard. Walsh's point hinges on doping in a GT not being merely harder, but actually very hard to do. That the way he words it means he's technically correct doesn't matter one bit, as the literal meaning of what he's saying is so obvious it's completely irrelevant.

 

[thehog]

I think you guys are arguing over nothing, as you basically agree on what matters. Yes, doping in a GT is harder, logistically, but where Walsh's argument falls apart is that just because it's harder it doesn't mean it's particularly hard. Walsh's point hinges on doping in a GT not being merely harder, but actually very hard to do. That the way he words it means he's technically correct doesn't matter one bit, as the literal meaning of what he's saying is so obvious it's completely irrelevant.

25 years of serious doping suggests it's not hard at all.

 

[sniper]

Did Walsh ever address Sky's visit to ASO headquarters?

I imagine such visits may compensate for certain logistic inconveniences.

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe I am blacklisted - doesn't bother me as I am sure it doesn't matter to him what I think.
You are missing one key point...he said you couldn't dope every three or four days...you don't need to do it that often in a GT.

Secondly, forget Walsh and Sky for a second...Alberto clearly blood doped...logistics weren't an issue there.

Horner seemed to have no problem not dropping his form for the 3rd week of the Vuelta.

Hesjedal's numbers for his Giro win went up in the 3rd week, which JV described as a Laboratory error

Logistics have become more covert and need a lot of forward planning, but it all seems possible looking at recent GTs.

 

[sniper]

TdF PED logistics might be the kind of context in which a guy like Motoman becomes relevant.

 

[pmcg76]

Horner seemed to have no problem not dropping his form for the 3rd week of the Vuelta.

Hesjedal's numbers for his Giro win went up in the 3rd week, which JV described as a Laboratory error

Logistics have become more covert and need a lot of forward planning, but it all seems possible looking at recent GTs.

The lab error claim was for the figures at the start of the Giro not the final week.

 

[Benotti69]

I am not disagreeing with what is possible but once you get other people involved, it automatically becomes more logistically complicated than a rider doping themselves at home.

Let me make this more concise, I believe Walsh is correct when he says doping at GTs is more logistically complicated than for one day races.

I don't agree with Walsh when he say's that GTs are clean-er. I think those who are requiring dope will do whatever it takes, it will be more complicated but they will still do it.

Funny as well that the first rider to actively have their wife at races was.......LeMond.

This statement by Walsh casts a question mark over Dan Martins LBL win.

The teams according to Walsh can dope for 1 day races but not GTs, so how did Martin beat all those dopers?

 

[gooner]

This statement by Walsh casts a question mark over Dan Martins LBL win.

The teams according to Walsh can dope for 1 day races but not GTs, so how did Martin beat all those dopers?

Walsh has said he believes in his performances. You're just implying something again.

 

[sniper]

Walsh has said he believes in his performances. You're just implying something again.

here you only prove benottis point viz. the inconsistency in walsh's argumentation.

 

[thehog]

here you only prove benottis point viz. the inconsistency in walsh's argumentation.

It also proves he's not "embedded" fishing out the story behind the story.

Good, bad or indifferent.

Using his faulty logic of who's doping and who's not shows that his time at Sky has been worthless.

Well not worthless. He's enjoyed some nice holidays.

If the conclusion that Sky are clean because they're no good at Classics and "JV said so" then he's not about to uncover anything.

I'd actually like to know more about Kerrison and their size 0 dress size. But Walsh ain't about to spoil his gig.

Heaven help him if G wins a classic next year

 

[pmcg76]

here you only prove benottis point viz. the inconsistency in walsh's argumentation.

Walsh can believe that doping for the classics may be easier to do but that still doesn't preclude the idea that he believes Martin still won cleanly. After all Kimmage also believes in D.Martin. Not everyone thinks in pure black and white like you guys.

At the end of the day, Benotti believes LeMond beat doped riders over three weeks so believing that a clean guy can win a one day race shouldn't be that much of a stretch from there.

 

[Benotti69]

Walsh has said he believes in his performances. You're just implying something again.

I am implying that Walsh cannot have it both ways. He cannot say that Sky are clean because it is too hard to dope,logistically, for GTs but not the classics and then say Dan Martin is clean after beating all those doping for the classics.

I would love it if Martin was clean, but sorry i cant buy it, i cannot buy that a clean Martin can beat the dopers, Jrod, Piti, Scarponi, Gasparotto, etc

But Walsh is all over the place with Sky love fest.

 

[gooner]

here you only prove benottis point viz. the inconsistency in walsh's argumentation.

He differentiated his opinion regarding doping at GTs and one day races. It wasn't an accusation at Dan Martin. In fact he doesn't believe too much in Cancellara's performances and said he has heard things about him in the past.

 

[pmcg76]

I am implying that Walsh cannot have it both ways. He cannot say that Sky are clean because it is too hard to dope,logistically, for GTs but not the classics and then say Dan Martin is clean after beating all those doping for the classics.

I would love it if Martin was clean, but sorry i cant buy it, i cannot buy that a clean Martin can beat the dopers, Jrod, Piti, Scarponi, Gasparotto, etc

But Walsh is all over the place with Sky love fest.

I love the way Jrod always gets automatically labelled as a doper. Can someone please remind me what is the evidence against JRod. I am not a JRod fan in any form, just find it amusing.

 

[Benotti69]

Walsh can believe that doping for the classics may be easier to do but that still doesn't preclude the idea that he believes Martin still won cleanly. After all Kimmage also believes in D.Martin. Not everyone thinks in pure black and white like you guys.

At the end of the day, Benotti believes LeMond beat doped riders over three weeks so believing that a clean guy can win a one day race shouldn't be that much of a stretch from there.

Different era. Only a few dont believe in LeMond and most of those bought yella wristbands.

I dont believe in this era, because i have to what changed it from 2005 to 2013?

The only change that has happened is Cookson and he has yet to put his mark on the sport.

So, black and white and all the lovely shades of grey, it was while Verbruggen and his puppet ran the UCI.

I repeat, i would love to believe Martin won LBL clean. But then how did he beat all those dopers?

 

[Benotti69]

I love the way Jrod always gets automatically labelled as a doper. Can someone please remind me what is the evidence against JRod. I am not a JRod fan in any form, just find it amusing.

There is none, he rode for all these clean teams

2001–2003 ONCE-Eroski
2004–2005 Saunier Duval-Prodir
2006–2009 Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears
2010– Team Katusha

 

[pmcg76]

Different era. Only a few dont believe in LeMond and most of those bought yella wristbands.

I dont believe in this era, because i have to what changed it from 2005 to 2013?

The only change that has happened is Cookson and he has yet to put his mark on the sport.

So, black and white and all the lovely shades of grey, it was while Verbruggen and his puppet ran the UCI.

I repeat, i would love to believe Martin won LBL clean. But then how did he beat all those dopers?

Quite simple really, because as has been pointed out a zillion times now, the one major game changer is blood doping which has been dialled back due to the biological passport. Over 3 weeks, yes it will still make a significant different, over one day not so much, then factor in tactics, form etc and it is entirely plausible.

Would Martin stand a chance against 150 guys with 50% hct, not a hope in hell but with a limited number of blood dopers, it's not nearly half as unbelievable.

A more important question would be how did a totally clean rider beat guys over 3 weeks who had access to testosterone, cortisteroids, etc with much weaker testing than is currently in place. I think most people would recognise that is far more implausible.

 

[gooner]

I am implying that Walsh cannot have it both ways. He cannot say that Sky are clean because it is too hard to dope,logistically, for GTs but not the classics and then say Dan Martin is clean after beating all those doping for the classics.

I would love it if Martin was clean, but sorry i cant buy it, i cannot buy that a clean Martin can beat the dopers, Jrod, Piti, Scarponi, Gasparotto, etc

But Walsh is all over the place with Sky love fest.

There's dopers in every race so by your logic above anyone who wins is a doper so. That's just a one eyed narrowed view. Not that I'm surprised.

 

[pmcg76]

There is none, he rode for all these clean teams

2001–2003 ONCE-Eroski
2004–2005 Saunier Duval-Prodir
2006–2009 Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears
2010– Team Katusha

LeMond

Renault
La Vie Claire
PDM
ADR
Z/GAN

 

[Benotti69]

LeMond

Renault
La Vie Claire
PDM
ADR
Z/GAN

I would agree with you listing these doping teams as dots to join against LeMond, but LeMond tried to shoot cycling's golden goose when the goose was making cycling a popular sport. If LeMond doped it would've come out as too many had a vested interest in Armstrong's success. LeMond did pay for trying to kill the goose, he lost his bike business, but he never lost his reputation for being clean and he continued to speak out against doping. His wattage numbers are what riders are measured against.

 

[Benotti69]

There's dopers in every race so by your logic above anyone who wins is a doper so. That's just a one eyed narrowed view. Not that I'm surprised.

It is a view held, because the sport is full of people who earn a living from doping. These people did not roll over and say oh blood passport, *** forget cycling lets see if any of the Ladies Curling team want some epo and testorterone. It is also held because McQuaid didn't have a problem with doping. The BP was not working, hence Ashenden left it. It didn't catch Armstrong so why would testing catch only those that McQuaid wanted out of the sport and those too stupid, like Ricco.

I hope Cookson will bring changes to make doping difficult. A start would be 4 year bans minimum along with independent anti doping and making teams pay for it.

But till then, it has been business as usual.

 

[sniper]

There's dopers in every race so by your logic above anyone who wins is a doper so. That's just a one eyed narrowed view. Not that I'm surprised.

it's not a view really.
i'd say it's common sense derived from simple chance calculations and some basic historical knowledge.