Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[Benotti69]

I don't disagree with that but there does seem to an idea that Kimmage would have been a better man to be embedded with SKY than Walsh, I don't think Kimmage would have found anymore out than Walsh. Way back I said I was puzzled to why Walsh and Kimmage fell out when their respective beliefs are more or less based on personal contact. Kimmage seem's very ****ed at Walsh and that is what I am curious about.

Kimmage said to Walsh at the Whistleblowers talk that Walsh would find nothing by being embedded.

I did not get the opportunity to ask why Kimmage felt that when he was going to embed till Wiggins threw a strop.

Di Luca has said recently that the doping for GTs is done at training. Would Kimmage have seen anything in Tenerife, maybe not but he would've known a lot more about the training and probably talked to others about what Sky were doing for a second opinion. Whereas Walsh lapped it up and questioned nothing. Even believing the dash of pineapple in the bidons as revolutionary when Kimmage's amateur Club in France were doing it in the 80s.

 

[the sceptic]

Oh cmon on now, there are lots. Of the top of my head, sceptic, Dear Wiggo, Moose and lots more who post less frequently. I am hardly going to remember every poster who has that belief.

fwiw, I think JV comes across as a bit of a snake oil salesman and I dont buy his propaganda, but I dont think he is running a doping program at garmin.

 

[Benotti69]

fwiw, I think JV comes across as a bit of a snake oil salesman and I dont buy his propaganda, but I dont think he is running a doping program at garmin.

Snakeoil salesman, propaganda and yet not running a doping program?

If he is running a clean team he is hardly selling propaganda or snakeoil!

He spends $500.000.00 year on internal testing and i guess because he runs a program, a very good one that keep his riders the right side of positive.

 

[the sceptic]

Snakeoil salesman, propaganda and yet not running a doping program?

If he is running a clean team he is hardly selling propaganda or snakeoil!

He spends $500.000.00 year on internal testing and i guess because he runs a program, a very good one that keep his riders the right side of positive.

I dont buy his "speeds are down, everyone stopped doping in 2009" stuff, but I havent seen Garmin do anything super human that made me think they were doping.

If you believe JV is running a program, why is it no good then? All his guys were getting dropped left and right in the grand tours this year.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I dont buy his "speeds are down, everyone stopped doping in 2009" stuff, but I havent seen Garmin do anything super human that made me think they were doping.

If you believe JV is running a program, why is it no good then? All his guys were getting dropped left and right in the grand tours this year.

*2006.

I don't believe JV is running a program.

 

[Ferminal]

To be fair Kimmage should really have asked him why he is any more "believable" than other great products of that clan - Vande Velde/Wiggins/Hesjedal, and if their legacy taints his accomplishments.

 

[gooner]

indeed. so kimmage on martin is in no way comparable to walsh on sky.
in that interview with martin's parents, kimmage doesn't draw any conclusions in terms of martin's cleanliness.
sure, he seems to have faith in martin. He might also like the lad, or like his parents. But he doesn't go to any ridiculous length to defend Martin's case like Walsh did with Sky.
If Froome turns out to be dirty, Walsh will look like an utter fool.
If Martin turns out to be dirty, Kimmage won't.


martin being clean is speculation.
and even if martin is clean, that doesn't make hesjedal or millar or talansky clean.

Kimmage clearly believes in Martin.

And if by chance he did, then for the first time in a long time the grand race would have a champion without a question mark. For Paul Kimmage, Dan Martin’s already a champion for clean cycling. He doesn’t agree with his old colleagues Roche and Kelly on much these days but one thing they’re unanimous on is that Martin’s integrity and talent is beyond reproach.

For Kimmage, how Martin goes in the Tour will say as much about the Tour as it will say about Martin himself.

“I love Dan Martin, I love the way he rides,” the acclaimed writer commented recently. “Someone like him should be winning mountain stages. Will he be able to compete when the Tour comes along? It’s dangerous to use people like Dan as a barometer but he would certainly be an indicator for me in terms of the state of cycling.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...an-martin-ready-for-the-big-stage-235499.html

 

[gooner]

That's absurd. Martin hasn't dominated the racing calendar, he hasn't been associated to a doping doctor, his team doesn't collectively pull unbelievable performances on a regular basis, he didn't come out of nowhere together with another teammate of his, and there's not a history of puzzling and apparently contradictory statements regarding any obscure disease. What tough questions should Kimmage have asked him?

If you are going to ask Nico Roche tough questions when he interviewed him at AG2R, you should do it similarly to Martin. He grilled Roche years back about Armstrong but there was nothing like that in the interview with Martin during the summer.

Even nowadays for all Kimmage's criticism of Roche riding for Riis and Contador, he still said on Newstalk during the Tour that there was nothing to suggest to him that he was doping.

 

[Benotti69]

I dont buy his "speeds are down, everyone stopped doping in 2009" stuff, but I havent seen Garmin do anything super human that made me think they were doping.

If you believe JV is running a program, why is it no good then? All his guys were getting dropped left and right in the grand tours this year.

When you look at past winners, it is superhuman to win a GT in this sport! I would also argue it is superhuman to win a monument.

Garmin has done both.

 

[sniper]

fwiw, I think JV comes across as a bit of a snake oil salesman and I dont buy his propaganda, but I dont think he is running a doping program at garmin.

indeed. imo he's definitely not running a doping program.
at best he's been running a propaganda program which generally includes three things i find a tad bit dishonest:
1. vouching for riders whom in reality he cannot vouch for and some of whom are likely dopers.
2. pretending that he's dedicated his life to fighting doping.
3. pretending cycling has cleaned itself up, both on a testing level and on a moral level.

edit:

Snakeoil salesman, propaganda and yet not running a doping program?

If he is running a clean team he is hardly selling propaganda or snakeoil!

He spends $500.000.00 year on internal testing and i guess because he runs a program, a very good one that keep his riders the right side of positive.

well yeah, put it like that, it does indeed seem possible if not probable he's running a program, not one that involves handing out lunch boxes, but one that keeps his riders from showing any suspect values.

 

[pmcg76]

indeed. imo he's definitely not running a doping program.
at best he's been running a propaganda program which generally includes three things i find a tad bit dishonest:
1. vouching for riders whom in reality he cannot vouch for and some of whom are likely dopers.
2. pretending that he's dedicated his life to fighting doping.
3. pretending cycling has cleaned itself up, both on a testing level and on a moral level.

edit:
well yeah, put it like that, it does indeed seem possible if not probable he's running a program, not one that involves handing out lunch boxes, but one that keeps his riders from showing any suspect values.

Well sniper if you believe that Garmin don't run a program, doesn't that make it more likely that Kimmage is right in his belief that Martin is clean. That kinda defeats your No 3 in slamming JV, because if Martin is clean, that means things have cleaned up for him to achieve what he has thus confirming what JV has been saying.

You do understand that JV saying the peloton has cleaned up does not automatically= all the top guys are clean.

 

[pmcg76]

Van Lancker rode for Panasonic and Geert Leinders was the team doc

Dirk DeWolf could be a clean winner.

30 years and 1 or maybe 2 were clean? Hmm inspires confidence that the sport is clean

Just looked at last 30 years of winners of MilanSanRemo. Doubt 1 was clean!

No doubt the same for the other monuments.

Bassons rode for Festina and their doctor was Rijckaert and their soigneur was Voet and their DS was Roussel

Or if you prefer Lemond rode for ADR and their doctor was Van Mol, he also rode for Z and their doctor was Bellocq

 

[blackcat]

Snakeoil salesman, propaganda and yet not running a doping program?

If he is running a clean team he is hardly selling propaganda or snakeoil!

He spends $500.000.00 year on internal testing and i guess because he runs a program, a very good one that keep his riders the right side of positive.

nah, dont see that.

JV is one of the smarter ones. He can do the sums on the risk-reward. If you want a going concern as a business, cant threaten its viability.

All you need is to outsource the program to the individuals concerned to achieve your plausible deniability.

Then you can throw the individuals under the bus. DearWiggo's busthrow-undery.

But it is not in the UCI's interest to catch any Garmin rider, ok, I concede that Pat McQuaid may have had a get Garmin policy 12 months back, but Garmin play such a positive role in PR and clean cycling, it is in the UCI's interest to have their back.

 

[Benotti69]

Bassons rode for Festina and their doctor was Rijckaert and their soigneur was Voet and their DS was Roussel

Or if you prefer Lemond rode for ADR and their doctor was Van Mol, he also rode for Z and their doctor was Bellocq

We all know how it ended with Bassons.

LeMond another rarity in the sport spoke up and out about doping like Bassons. LeMond had an early retirement due to orthers use of PEDs.

Cant really imagine a rider being happy to ride clean against dopers for a long time without going insane or joining the doping.

History has shown those who chose the clean path left the sport quickly, especially if they weren't winning.

DeWolf has not spoken out about the dopers nor has van Lancker. If these guys were not on the PEDs then I imagine they should feel cheated out of more monuments.

 

[Benotti69]

nah, dont see that.

JV is one of the smarter ones. He can do the sums on the risk-reward. If you want a going concern as a business, cant threaten its viability.

All you need is to outsource the program to the individuals concerned to achieve your plausible deniability.

Then you can throw the individuals under the bus. DearWiggo's busthrow-undery.

But it is not in the UCI's interest to catch any Garmin rider, ok, I concede that Pat McQuaid may have had a get Garmin policy 12 months back, but Garmin play such a positive role in PR and clean cycling, it is in the UCI's interest to have their back.

JV has clearly stated he spends half a mill on internal testing. I think it is to keep his guys doping under the radar, but Wiggins and Hesjedal had bogus numbers in GTs in the 3rd week which JV conveniently blamed on blood machine reading errors.

 

[pmcg76]

We all know how it ended with Bassons.

LeMond another rarity in the sport spoke up and out about doping like Bassons. LeMond had an early retirement due to orthers use of PEDs.

Cant really imagine a rider being happy to ride clean against dopers for a long time without going insane or joining the doping.

History has shown those who chose the clean path left the sport quickly, especially if they weren't winning.

DeWolf has not spoken out about the dopers nor has van Lancker. If these guys were not on the PEDs then I imagine they should feel cheated out of more monuments.

Hello!!! LeMond. You are now devoiding your own points.

As usual the goalposts keep moving, I named you winners of L-B-L without any connections to doping and now it is about whether they spoke out or not. Bassons said nothing until he was outed by Voet and migh very well have said nothing if he had not been made a cause celeb thereafter.

LeMond also said nothing until his career was well over and then mainly when his battles with Armstrong began. Van Lancker or De Wolf are hardly in the same league as LeMond when it came to media presence.

Why does everyone who might have felt cheated have to speak out, you must live in some twisted parallel universe where every single person has the exact same mindset.

In everyday work situations there are people who complain very little even though they are being screwed over whilst there are others who complain like mad over the smallest detail. There is no one catch all mentality that befits everyone.

 

[Benotti69]

Hello!!! LeMond. You are now devoiding your own points.

Hello LeMond forced to retire early due to EPO.

As usual the goalposts keep moving, I named you winners of L-B-L without any connections to doping and now it is about whether they spoke out or not. Bassons said nothing until he was outed by Voet and migh very well have said nothing if he had not been made a cause celeb thereafter.

We disagree.

LeMond also said nothing until his career was well over and then mainly when his battles with Armstrong began. Van Lancker or De Wolf are hardly in the same league as LeMond when it came to media presence.

Why does everyone who might have felt cheated have to speak out, you must live in some twisted parallel universe where every single person has the exact same mindset.

In everyday work situations there are people who complain very little even though they are being screwed over whilst there are others who complain like mad over the smallest detail. There is no one catch all mentality that befits everyone.

You believe the sport is clean, great, but in reality you dont hence your lots of time spent in here trying to convince yourself and others that somewhere a unicorn appeared and took all the PEDs away while at the same time convincing the all those dopers, ex dopers, enablers, doping docs, dope dealers to stop doping.

 

[pmcg76]

Hello LeMond forced to retire early due to EPO.



We disagree.



You believe the sport is clean, great, but in reality you dont hence your lots of time spent in here trying to convince yourself and others that somewhere a unicorn appeared and took all the PEDs away while at the same time convincing the all those dopers, ex dopers, enablers, doping docs, dope dealers to stop doping.

LeMond did not retire because of EPO, he retired because his health started to fail badly. You do not go from finishing Top 10 in the Tour one year to finishing outside the time limit in one season, EPO or no EPO. Was LeMond the only rider in the entire peloton who didn't switch to EPO between 91 and 92??

I don't believe the sport is clean and I have never said such a thing. However what I don't do is take one view and dismiss everything else as wrong even when it is coming from people who are a lot closer to the sport than I am, and from people who are respected.

You eugolise Kimmage all the time but then say he is wrong about Martin. Sorry but Kimmage is a former pro and still knows people within the sport, I would say he is a lot closer to the sport and has a lot more contacts than some random guy sitting behind the keyboard. Yet you choose to put your own view above Kimmage. That is bizarre.

I also take time to talk to people who are directly involved in the sport and race against ProTour riders and know PT riders. There are some who post on this forum, maybe you should talk to them and ask them questions sometime. I know, what's the point. You would just dismiss their views as wrong as well.

Everyone who doesn't believe the sport is dirty is completely wrong in your eyes which is the mentality of a zealot, not that of any rational thinking person.

 

[pancakes]

DeWolf's 1992 LBL is a great example of just what you can achieve with Omerta!
I have spent time trying to find an unedited video of the last 30-50km online but couldn't find one anywhere. Please find it someone and post a link.

100th anniversary edition so a Belgian 'has' to win......no surprise there then.
But DeWolf?
Keeping it short a clearly 'tubby' DeWolf is seen repeatedly squeezing and twisting his race jersey around the navel area during his glorious solo romp. He rides away form (Alpine stage winner IIRC) Rooks on a parcours that clearly should not have suited his body type.
I was in Belgium at the time watching it live on TV with a Belgian mate. As the finish got closer my mate was shaking his head and saying "It's just not possible, just not possible".
Finally as DeWolf entered the finishing area all became clear.......the banners on the crowd barriers matched the logo on Wolfies jersey, G****ade.
G****ade were the event's sponsor that day and I think I'm right in saying the owner/ceo presented Dirky boy with his goodies on the podium. Perfect.

In the following days there were all kinds of stories about DDW dosing himself as he rode with the said squeezing action, who knows?

The early '90s in cycling was a time when many within the sport seemed to hanker after American Dollars believing that should cycling become mainstream stateside fortune would surely follow.

Could LBL have been rigged like that? Of course.
If you watch the BRT show Sportweekend (You Tube) the video of the race is edited to miss the jersey squeezing and the presenter makes no mention of it. He does, however, announce that he is going to have and evening meal with studio guest (and most recent winner of LBL) Dirk DeWolf.

IMO it is impossible that 1992 was an honest race.

Mr. Di Luca only this week talked about race fixing/buying/selling and I don't think he is wrong. But he didn't just mean the riders I'm sure. Organisers, federations and most importantly the media (cycling media and non) can all turn a blind eye when it suits them.

Oh, but wait "that was then and this is now"(copyright Team GB,Sky etc) it would be unthinkable that 'cycling' would allow a monument event (classic or GT) to be won by a chancer to further their globalisation dreams.

Sorry folks I think you need to look harder for an honest LBL winner.
There are no heros in pro cycling.

Apologies that it wasn't strictly a Walsh related post but I suspect it is a subject that he may be able identify with......

 

[86TDFWinner]

LeMond did not retire because of EPO, he retired because his health started to fail badly. You do not go from finishing Top 10 in the Tour one year to finishing outside the time limit in one season, EPO or no EPO. Was LeMond the only rider in the entire peloton who didn't switch to EPO between 91 and 92??

However, he's mainly mentioned SEVERAL TIMES that he retired because he just couldn't compete with the doped riders. He was getting beat soundly by guys, due to "outside forces". He retired in '94, because guys he was normally beating consistantly for years, were now beating him, but doing so while on something.

How does a guy beat folks 2 yrs in a row cleanly, then "suddenly" he can't even place in the top 10? Sure his health was fading, but if you don't think doping wasn't a huge reason for him retiring, then I don't know what else to say.

 

[Benotti69]

LeMond did not retire because of EPO, he retired because his health started to fail badly. You do not go from finishing Top 10 in the Tour one year to finishing outside the time limit in one season, EPO or no EPO. Was LeMond the only rider in the entire peloton who didn't switch to EPO between 91 and 92??

I don't believe the sport is clean and I have never said such a thing. However what I don't do is take one view and dismiss everything else as wrong even when it is coming from people who are a lot closer to the sport than I am, and from people who are respected.

You eugolise Kimmage all the time but then say he is wrong about Martin. Sorry but Kimmage is a former pro and still knows people within the sport, I would say he is a lot closer to the sport and has a lot more contacts than some random guy sitting behind the keyboard. Yet you choose to put your own view above Kimmage. That is bizarre.

I also take time to talk to people who are directly involved in the sport and race against ProTour riders and know PT riders. There are some who post on this forum, maybe you should talk to them and ask them questions sometime. I know, what's the point. You would just dismiss their views as wrong as well.

Everyone who doesn't believe the sport is dirty is completely wrong in your eyes which is the mentality of a zealot, not that of any rational thinking person.

Pro riders readily admit to people they dope or dont dope? Please. Did you look into their eyes are read how clean they are.

The anti doping is a joke. BP was introduced to keep everyone's doping from getting out of hand and level it out but it failed Armstrong and Horner never mind everyone else in a GT.

If you want to win major races in the sport of cycling it aint possible clean. Guys like Leinders and Ibauguren are not hired because they are good at saddle sores.

Sport is full of those who enabled doping 10 years ago, why stop, oh yeah because JV said so.

 

[pmcg76]

However, he's mainly mentioned SEVERAL TIMES that he retired because he just couldn't compete with the doped riders. He was getting beat soundly by guys, due to "outside forces". He retired in '94, because guys he was normally beating consistantly for years, were now beating him, but doing so while on something.

How does a guy beat folks 2 yrs in a row cleanly, then "suddenly" he can't even place in the top 10? Sure his health was fading, but if you don't think doping wasn't a huge reason for him retiring, then I don't know what else to say.

Definitely the increase of EPO usage excelerated the decline of LeMond but he was already struggling with his health by 92. C'mon, he won DuPont in May 92, finished just outside the Top 10 at Dauphine, 4th at Switzerland and then outside the time limit at the Tour. That is not normal at all and not down to EPO.

LeMond said sometimes he felt great and then next thing he felt powerless. I think health was his biggest downfall

 

[pmcg76]

Pro riders readily admit to people they dope or dont dope? Please. Did you look into their eyes are read how clean they are.

The anti doping is a joke. BP was introduced to keep everyone's doping from getting out of hand and level it out but it failed Armstrong and Horner never mind everyone else in a GT.

If you want to win major races in the sport of cycling it aint possible clean. Guys like Leinders and Ibauguren are not hired because they are good at saddle sores.

Sport is full of those who enabled doping 10 years ago, why stop, oh yeah because JV said so.

You see that is what is ridiculous, nobody related to pro cycling is to be trusted according to you. That is just pure irrational thinking and illogical.

You believe every single pro riders dope, I am sure the guys who post here would be very offended at that idea. None of them ride at a high level but they know people who have.

 

[pmcg76]

DeWolf's 1992 LBL is a great example of just what you can achieve with Omerta!
I have spent time trying to find an unedited video of the last 30-50km online but couldn't find one anywhere. Please find it someone and post a link.

100th anniversary edition so a Belgian 'has' to win......no surprise there then.
But DeWolf?
Keeping it short a clearly 'tubby' DeWolf is seen repeatedly squeezing and twisting his race jersey around the navel area during his glorious solo romp. He rides away form (Alpine stage winner IIRC) Rooks on a parcours that clearly should not have suited his body type.
I was in Belgium at the time watching it live on TV with a Belgian mate. As the finish got closer my mate was shaking his head and saying "It's just not possible, just not possible".
Finally as DeWolf entered the finishing area all became clear.......the banners on the crowd barriers matched the logo on Wolfies jersey, G****ade.
G****ade were the event's sponsor that day and I think I'm right in saying the owner/ceo presented Dirky boy with his goodies on the podium. Perfect.

In the following days there were all kinds of stories about DDW dosing himself as he rode with the said squeezing action, who knows?

The early '90s in cycling was a time when many within the sport seemed to hanker after American Dollars believing that should cycling become mainstream stateside fortune would surely follow.

Could LBL have been rigged like that? Of course.
If you watch the BRT show Sportweekend (You Tube) the video of the race is edited to miss the jersey squeezing and the presenter makes no mention of it. He does, however, announce that he is going to have and evening meal with studio guest (and most recent winner of LBL) Dirk DeWolf.

IMO it is impossible that 1992 was an honest race.

Mr. Di Luca only this week talked about race fixing/buying/selling and I don't think he is wrong. But he didn't just mean the riders I'm sure. Organisers, federations and most importantly the media (cycling media and non) can all turn a blind eye when it suits them.

Oh, but wait "that was then and this is now"(copyright Team GB,Sky etc) it would be unthinkable that 'cycling' would allow a monument event (classic or GT) to be won by a chancer to further their globalisation dreams.

Sorry folks I think you need to look harder for an honest LBL winner.
There are no heros in pro cycling.

Apologies that it wasn't strictly a Walsh related post but I suspect it is a subject that he may be able identify with......

Maybe that is true as DeWolf was definitely an unlikely winner of L-B-L, I don't disagree with that but that is a rumour for sure.

 

[Ripper]

Definitely the increase of EPO usage excelerated the decline of LeMond but he was already struggling with his health by 92. C'mon, he won DuPont in May 92, finished just outside the Top 10 at Dauphine, 4th at Switzerland and then outside the time limit at the Tour. That is not normal at all and not down to EPO.

LeMond said sometimes he felt great and then next thing he felt powerless. I think health was his biggest downfall

Didn't Lemond himself makes comments about a mitochondrial problem he suffered from? I seem to recall this being related to his poor health, and then the doped peloton accelerating the decline ...