What's this "they were right once so they must be right the entire time" nonsense anyway?
Well, I was cheering for Roglič back when he was still racing for Adria Mobil. I'm a big Nordic sports fan.And on a bit unrelated note, as this discussion was conducted, who do you feel the Slovenes was cheering for, past decades? Champs of other nations. We never had problems with that.
P.S. We always had a couple of our cycling heros too, doubt any of you cheered for them.
Would you like to have a chat about Primož Čerin? Or August Prosinek?Roglič, that is an easy one.
I've given them credit where I believe the credit is due (yesterday) and not given credit where I don't believe it is due (I don't believe stage 4 was part of a masterplan, and even if it was, I don't think that masterplan was an especially good one because it needlessly added complications and meant they had to work harder than they would have done otherwise to succeed).It's about giving credit, when the credit is due. If you want to be an opinion maker, you need to be capable of that too.
Claiming on how JV blew it on this race, tactically vise stage 4, that is plain BS.
Of course they didn't "blow it on the race" on stage 4, as it all worked out in the end. However, that doesn't exactly make it a tactical masterpiece. If there was a "tactical masterpiece" it was yesterday, and I'm not sure that was actually a tactical masterpiece, or just the ability to think on their feet, and use the cards they'd been played/accidentally played themselves.Claiming on how JV blew it on this race, tactically vise stage 4, that is plain BS.
I'll cheer for whoever the hell I want to cheer for, regardless of nationality, height, hair-colour or results in French Cheese Races!That's true, but since people don't respect the system anyway (some Danes are even cheering for Canadians!) I am going to follow that other system and will now support everyone who is or seems German to me.
Having Pogačar on your wheel and being able to choose when you attack - or indeed if you attack, because you don't need to - is not worse than having Pogačar on your wheel with the exact same time gap, but also needing to gain time on somebody else (who is Pog's teammate, so Pog doesn't need to attack if you yourself don't). If stage 4 had been a matter of them gaining time on Pogačar but at the cost of risking McNulty, Bilbao and co. gaining, then I'd agree it was worth it. But that wasn't what happened. Instead, they gained nothing on their direct competitors and lost a lot to their indirect competitors leaving themselves in a worse position with fewer options than when they started, so in no way am I going to say that's a masterstroke.Sure it does, when you make an unorthodox tactical move and it pans out, that should be considered to be a tactical masterpiece by any standards.
P.S. Claiming having a Pogačar on your back wheel and defending the jersey on stage 6 would be wiser. Just listen to yourself.
We are talking about the "letting McNulty get away, and take the jersey on stage 4" thing, right?Yes, the Vingegaard move on stage 4 was great too. Regardless of "No.1 rule".
But there was another tactical move involved that went just beyond and took the spotlight.
But does it work the same way if the person defending the leader's jersey is Roglic or Pogacar?ATM the worst thing that can happen to you is to have Roglič or Pogačar on your back wheel, while you defend the leaders jersey, on a hard race.
I just don't see the tactical masterpiece you're talking about. Unless you're saying that Jumbo was absolutely certain the following things would happen:Well, yes and no. In perfect world basically we could be talking about the whole tactical masterpiece, the race as a whole, stage 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and pre-race decisions being made.
However, that doesn't exactly make it a tactical masterpiece. If there was a "tactical masterpiece" it was yesterday, and I'm not sure that was actually a tactical masterpiece, or just the ability to think on their feet, and use the cards they'd been played/accidentally played themselves.
Whoever has some in-depth knowledge in cycling and has been closely watching the love duo rivalry already had, or eventually will came around and admit, if not to the world, to him or herself, Itzulia Basque Country 2021 was a masterpiece, from JV tactics point of view. There is just no way around that.
Claiming otherwise for sure is ones prerogative, but that doesn't change much.
The whole race up to that point. And perhaps he would not have bridged, but I think using TP to provide cover for McNulty was a mistake. TP would need to react based on what he needed to do, and not check with the DS.At what point in the race? A km mark would be nice. As I see it, once they were on the descent, with or without McNulty, Pogi had no chance whatsoever of bridging across.
I mostly agree. With point 3 the only caveat I would add is that McNulty, TP, and UAE should have had a bit more insight into strengths and limitations, and the threats the course and the teams presented, and went with a slightly different strategy. Cost them a second or two in decision making, which is all it takes.Cycling is not and has never been a 2 team affair of tactics as Tour of the Basque country has shown
5. UAE had let Hirschi up the road when he should have stayed back ...not TJV tactics
- The giving away of the jersey was not intentional. It was accidental so none can claim that as superb tactics by TJV and in other circumstances on stage 6 it may have proved a terrible mistake
- The split on the descent was caused by Astana not TJV and that was where the race was lost ..little to do with TJV tactics ..more to do with Roglic was on it and UAE were behind
- McNulty was not as strong as hoped ...no one could have known this to be true 100% at that point in the race
- After the descent other teams rode and Roglic sat on and benefited ...TJV were lucky here
So far that is an accumulation of events that TJV tactics did not really influence
- Roglic was so strong...little to do with tactics
- Roglic benefited from Gaudu and Carty being able to keep up and then take turns.....not TJV tactics
- Behind Pogacar had no one to help pull for most of the race ..except a few times but mostly had to do it himself Not again TJV tactics
Tactics work well in cycling but all teams are at the mercy of many teams tactics
I dont think Chris Horner is an champion. he is bringing entertainment to the sport and his views are as legitimate as anyones...more so than some. Entertainment is about controversy
There have been many occasions when we have wondered what TJV were up to in races and the same for Movistar
They do make questionable decisions at times... But yesterday they benefited without being the masters of tactics ..mostly because they had the strongest rider and were int he right place and the right time..serendipity
To the bolded, ummm, nope.Whoever has some in-depth knowledge in cycling and has been closely watching the love duo rivalry already had, or eventually will came around and admit, if not to the world, to him or herself, Itzulia Basque Country 2021 was a masterpiece, from JV tactics point of view. There is just no way around that.
Claiming otherwise for sure is ones prerogative, but that doesn't change much.
And then just one of those scenarious could have played out differently, and the exact same choice could've been a total disaster. I just don't see how "gambling on several different scenarious playing out just right simultaneously" translates into "tactical masterpiece". Of course, "the winner is always right", and in future-years, when people look at the results, all they'll see is that Jumbo-Visma went 1-2 in the GC, and took (nearly) all the jersys, not the Best Basque Rider for... obvious reasons.Indeed, tacticians must have had such outcomes in their mind. Stretching their backs and flexing the legs a bit, before saying OK, that is just about right ...