Jörg Jaksche: Doping, hypocrisy and a dog called Bella

[roundabout]

And on the subject of Dekker, I am reading that he has signed for 2 more years at Garmin.

 

[sniper]

I guess I kind of tangled up your comment about arrogant dutchmen, the original topic of this thread, and whether JV should have taken on Jaksche.

More important is JV calling out Weltz in public as a liar. That's a significant moment surely?

it's a significant moment, but it's the only thing JV can do if he wants Garmin to maintain some kind of credibility.
I think he would want to deal with this the way he dealt with White.
White took all the flack back then. JV didn't take responsibility for nothing, iirc.

JV should IMO justify why he hired Weltz in the first place, because after his pro-armstrong tirade and public denial of the Hamilton allegations, Weltz simply stinks.

 

[BigBoat]

The "good" way of doing it is the Järmann way. After retiring he wrote an anonymous report in a newspaper about his doping experiences, later adding his name to it. Without ever having been caught, without being under special suspicion. And THAT'S a report I can believe in. A link to his article in german:

http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=311

A confession like that? Yes, more could or should do that. The JJ way, no thanks. Just my opinion, but I really have trouble fully believing anything JJ says. Not saying he's a pathological liar, just that... saying one thing, ok, it was a lie, but now I say the truth... isn't really convincing (to me)

Well your damned if you do and damned if you dont because if you admit to doping anonymously people will say your not real, and they still say that you have no credibility because you doped. But yeah I'll admit, the way you show is interesting for a rider who's considering the option.

But really, I'm still waiting for Garmin to find an independent source to track their power files from training to racing throughout the year. No its NOT a disadvantage to post power data, LOL. Contador know what his rivals power output is, he doesn't care.

The sponsor is GARMIN after all, for Christ's sake.

 

[mastersracer]

Well your damned if you do and damned if you dont because if you admit to doping anonymously people will say your not real, and they still say that you have no credibility because you doped. But yeah I'll admit, the way you show is interesting for a rider who's considering the option.

But really, I'm still waiting for Garmin to find an independent source to track their power files from training to racing throughout the year. No its NOT a disadvantage to post power data, LOL. Contador know what his rivals power output is, he doesn't care.

The sponsor is GARMIN after all, for Christ's sake.

one rider who was posting his power files was told to take it down by JV...

 

[hrotha]

And on the subject of Dekker, I am reading that he has signed for 2 more years at Garmin.

I thought that was weird. With all the "we'll see" talk, I was expecting a one-year contract.

 

[yonatan11]

Ryder Hesjedal's watts per kilo tracked throughout a year (from January training rides through May at the Giro would be great to have on a site like training peaks.

Of course an independent source would have to be used to prevent file tampering so the real power data was posted for all the public to see. I wonder how Antoine Vayer would react to the Giro power numbers.

Perhaps Jonathon can have Vayer keep the power meter slopes for Team Garmin and upload the data of some winter & spring training rides, as well as summer rides then compare them to the races. We could compare all out numbers in training to the races.

"you'd get a continuous output of power." -Greg Lemond

I think in regards to a blood tranfusion this would be an effective indicator to detect doping, but as we've heard from doctors, cyclists etc., now a days seems to go toward the trend of microdosing year-round. The numbers you'd see in winter would be no cleaner than the numbers you'd see at a GT. The natural progression of them peaking would still be present, of course.

An article in the past that peaked my interest was gustav larssons power files from the 2009 Tour of California. In the prologue he averaged 525w for 4:25 for a mediocre 38th place. Less than a week later, he averaged 491w for over 30 minutes (and averaged 540w on the climb!) to slot in at 3rd place by the end of the day. His coach mentioned they needed to adjust his FTP up from 415w to 471w after this. That's a gain of 13.5%.. thoughts?

 

[Morbius]

I've no idea about the technicalities of doping, but would continuous blood doping all year round actually work? Wouldn't the body just adjust the amount it produces naturally?

 

[Benotti69]

I thought that was weird. With all the "we'll see" talk, I was expecting a one-year contract.

Dekker already talked about doping before, maybe JV is waiting to see if this time he will keep his mouth shut before getting his program

 

[Benotti69]

I've no idea about the technicalities of doping, but would continuous blood doping all year round actually work? Wouldn't the body just adjust the amount it produces naturally?

I guess it depends how much is done and for how long.

The way i see it they dont dope all year long because very few race all year long, so they have the doctors monitoring the bodies and blood levels to keep it all ticketyboo.

The doctors are the key to keep the performance going to hit their peaks. The better the doctors the better the performance. Just ask Wiggins and his GT team

 

[yonatan11]

As museuuw said.. it was a daily thing. Testosterone helps aid in recovery, so it makes sense to use it after hard training rides. Athletes have been said to use epo during training because you can train way harder. PEDs are not only for race day. Doesn't really work like that.

 

[jonny testaronny]

Imagine a psychologically strong athlete that has great tactical sense, and is muscularly very strong as well, but who doesn't have a great o2 delivery system. This athlete benefits perfectly from o2 vector doping, and it would be difficult for them to perform as well without it.

I sees what you did there...

...and by the way, I much appreciate your coming on this forum to chat with us. It has the most knowledgeable & frank discussion of doping in cycling that I've found, and I hope it stays that way.

 

[egtalbot]

But really, I'm still waiting for Garmin to find an independent source to track their power files from training to racing throughout the year. No its NOT a disadvantage to post power data, LOL. Contador know what his rivals power output is, he doesn't care.

The sponsor is GARMIN after all, for Christ's sake.

And think about it, they could tie it into Garmin Connect and have challenges to see how long the rest of us could keep up with the wattage the pros keep up for an hour, stuff like that.

That said, I confess to being a fan of JV. Do I think most top riders in cycling, on all teams, are still microdosing? Of course, I'd be a fool not to think that. As JV implied, it's a risk/reward thing. The risk of getting caught is nearly zero. But it is good to see the level of doping likely reduced in the past five years or so. It makes the sport a bit safer, though not more ethical.

 

[BigBoat]

I think in regards to a blood tranfusion this would be an effective indicator to detect doping, but as we've heard from doctors, cyclists etc., now a days seems to go toward the trend of microdosing year-round. The numbers you'd see in winter would be no cleaner than the numbers you'd see at a GT. The natural progression of them peaking would still be present, of course.

An article in the past that peaked my interest was gustav larssons power files from the 2009 Tour of California. In the prologue he averaged 525w for 4:25 for a mediocre 38th place. Less than a week later, he averaged 491w for over 30 minutes (and averaged 540w on the climb!) to slot in at 3rd place by the end of the day. His coach mentioned they needed to adjust his FTP up from 415w to 471w after this. That's a gain of 13.5%.. thoughts?

EPO use has become less and less possible or desirable amongst the pro riders it seems. I still believe that its not possible for the riders to blood dope in training to the level they dope in the races. What we'd see with independent power file/ performance monitoring would be HUGE and its not something Jonathon Vaughters seems to want to talk about or respond too.

You cant jack your crit to 50+% in training because you simply do not have enough red cells. There's a limited number of opportunities throughout the year to blood dope & that's why smart guys like Lance did not race very often. Small amounts of epo wont get your performance (sustainable power, V02 max/maximal aerobic power) to what 400 cc of red cells will.

one rider who was posting his power files was told to take it down by JV...

Yeah....why is he so scared of this idea? He could find somebody to simply post true power numbers. No risk of a positive test, it would not have to be a Don Catlin type, just somebody to accurately post data from throughout the year using the correct slope/offset.

 

[sniper]

Jaksche about Change Cycling Now.

Says that not necessarily all of the UCI, but mainly the two clowns at the top, are fully incompetent and corrupt.

Criticizes Vaughters and Millar for, in spite of coming clean, not showing full transparency.

Sees Pound and Ashenden as ideal candidates for leading roles in cycling.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/sp...radsport-angriff-des-jedermanns-11983662.html