Jörg Jaksche: Doping, hypocrisy and a dog called Bella

[hrotha]

No. And our publicly stated policy would prevent that as well.

Good to hear, although exactly how good that is depends on how much evidence of someone being clean you would need in order to believe him and sign him (some joining the dots involved here). That raises a question, though: how come none of your riders served a reduced suspension around the time Slipstream started, and none have done so ever since? I realize what WADA and USADA do is beyond your control, but it does sound odd that they would get off absolutely scot-free, especially now that it is said they were offered a reduced suspension in exchange of cooperating with the feds/USADA, if they did indeed confess to WADA.

 

[Epicycle]

Here's a fun example: So, Tommy D... Here's a guy that has used o2 vector doping, and with some success. But when you test him, without o2 vector doping, you quickly see this guy has massive aerobic ability. O2 transport isn't the limiting factor with his body/mind. However, he is not a mentally strong athlete. He succumbs to nerves and pressure very easily.

So, in looking at his physiology and psychology, the rate limiting factor is the latter, not the former. So, working on that makes huge strides. Giving him o2 vector doping is akin to putting a bigger engine in a car with a flat tire, because you want it to go faster. yes, it will make the car with the flat tire go faster, but you could just go ahead and fix the flat tire instead?

This isn't true with with lots of guys. Imagine a psychologically strong athlete that has great tactical sense, and is muscularly very strong as del, but who doesn't have a great o2 delivery system. This athlete benefits perfectly from o2 vector doping, and it would be difficult for them to perform as well without it. So, as a manager, i need to know that going in.

With Tommy D, I knew I could get great performances out of him, clean, but it would take some unconventional work. This is not always true.

It's amazing how things have changed...JV is on here talking about Danielson blood doping in the past, when I don't believe Tom has ever spoken about it himself (not that we were unaware, Tom being a Ferrari client has been known for years). Big kudos to JV for candor.

 

[JV1973]

JV, I give you and your team the benefit of the doubt but there is one thing that bothers me.

You often talk about cycling being so much cleaner now, as if the problems are over. But I just can't accept that: too many people still getting caught, UCI not biopass testing, ToC no testing.....dare I say it SKY

Are you just trying to encourage people to try to ride clean by giving them hope or what? I can't make sense of it (monkey struggling with coconut)

Cycling is cleaner now. just look at the numbers. I'm not being idealistic. I'm just looking at VAM, av hb, power outputs, etc.

Sky, in the same form they had in 2012 TdF would have gotten slaughtered in the 1996 Tour de France. Not one guy in the top 30 on GC.

That's my only point. And the numbers support that.

 

[hrotha]

It's amazing how things have changed...JV is on here talking about Danielson blood doping in the past, when I don't believe Tom has ever spoken about it himself (not that we were unaware, Tom being a Ferrari client has been known for years). Big kudos to JV for candor.

JV just denied him the possibility of writing a twitterific confession for the New York Times.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Not arguing with cleaner, just not comfortable with the idea that it's all ok now. Sometimes that is how you come across. I assume you are aware of the way you come across and am trying to understand your motivation.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I also think it is good to have JV explain this.

I don't know JJ personally, so perhaps what JV is saying is correct. Then again, one has to understand that, after seeing cyclist after cyclist lie time and time again about doping, cycling fans are understandably cynical.

I would really like to believe that Garmin's achievements were done in a clean manner and really represent a future for this sport. I also wanted to believe that Hamilton, Landis, and Contador were clean too though.

 

[hrotha]

Cycling is cleaner now. just look at the numbers. I'm not being idealistic. I'm just looking at VAM, av hb, power outputs, etc.

Sky, in the same form they had in 2012 TdF would have gotten slaughtered in the 1996 Tour de France. Not one guy in the top 30 on GC.

That's my only point. And the numbers support that.

Yes, 2012 Sky would get obliterated at the 1996 Tour de France. But what about, say, the 2008 Tour de France? 2009? 2010? That's the relevant comparison, I think.

But, since you brought up the 1996 Tour de France, I would say the superiority of Sky relative to other teams involved was very much reminiscent of 1996 Telekom. The word "relative" is key.

I think it's fishy enough to merit an "I won't touch that one with a ten-foot pole" reply from you, but if you disagree it would be nice to hear why having four riders in the same team being in the form of their lives and climbing better than ever shouldn't be suspicious.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Why do you think being vague in public is the best strategy? Do you not think that it fosters mistrust between fans who are anti-doping and teams? Do you not think the public deserve the sport to be more up-front and public? Isn't vagueness just a politer form of omerta?

Also, if there is no blacklist then why do some not very good riders who get popped but uphold omerta get resigned while the riders who do break omerta can never get jobs?

 

[the big ring]

Yes, 2012 Sky would get obliterated at the 1996 Tour de France.

I still see Sky as having obliterated everyone else this year.

So if the obliterators would have been obliterated, I'd hate to see how the other teams from this year would have fared in 1996.

ETA:
1996 1st - 30th = 1.2% difference in time
2012 1st - 30th = 1.3% difference in time

 

[JV1973]

Why do you think being vague in public is the best strategy? Do you not think that it fosters mistrust between fans who are anti-doping and teams? Do you not think the public deserve the sport to be more up-front and public? Isn't vagueness just a politer form of omerta?

You have to remember, you are a rare fan. You are very knowledgable. When I speak in large publications, I'm not speaking to the hard core fan, I'm speaking to the large audience of enthusiastic, but not overly knowledgable fans.

I love watching the Broncos play. I don't know **** about football. I'm the equivalent of 90% of fans out there, for most sports, cycling included.

The details are best left to those that can do something with the details.

 

[Epicycle]

Why do you think being vague in public is the best strategy? Do you not think that it fosters mistrust between fans who are anti-doping and teams? Do you not think the public deserve the sport to be more up-front and public? Is vagueness just a politer form of omerta?

It is interesting that JV talks/writes very specifically about some of the riders he's dealt with as Garmin boss while being vague about his own past.

It does seem to still be the same type of thing that happened to Jorg...if you talk about management then you get screwed. Jorg got blackballed because he revealed details of team management being involved in his doping (I believe the only rider he singled out was Jens Voigt, for his hypocrisy). It's the old saying...sh!t runs downhill. Once you go into details about those in management...that's when you run into problems.

 

[JV1973]

It is interesting that JV talks/writes very specifically about some of the riders he's dealt with as Garmin boss while being vague about his own past.

It does seem to still be the same type of thing that happened to Jorg...if you talk about management then you get screwed. Jorg got blackballed because he revealed details of team management being involved in his doping (I believe the only rider he singled out was Jens Voigt, for his hypocrisy). It's the old saying...sh!t runs downhill. Once you go into details about those in management...that's when you run into problems.

I didn't go into any details about anyone. No names. Nothing. Same as me. All that will be public, eventually. That's been an inevitability for almost 3 yrs now. Just wait.

You thirst for blood will be sated.

 

[D-Queued]

... stance on "we're hiring no one with a known history in doping" is just stupid in cycling today. It's just glorifying those who managed to slip by and damning those who got caught, even though the crime is exactly the same. It's ethically untenable for me.

...

Thank you for stating this, This should be obvious, but apparently it isn't.

I didn't go into any details about anyone. No names. Nothing. Same as me. All that will be public, eventually. That's been an inevitability for almost 3 yrs now. Just wait.

You thirst for blood will be sated.

Sorry to argue, but I think it has been an inevitability for more than three years.

There has always been a certain truth to the truth coming out in cycling. Since Festina, as dirty as the sport has been, a lot more people have been paying attention. In addition, the particular conspiracy of current note has just been too big with too many people aware of it, and too many people taken advantage of to be hidden forever.

While the adage 'the bigger they are... the harder they fall' may be realized, the bigger they are the longer it takes is also true.

The hope we hold on to is that this time around the house cleaning will be for real.

Dave.

 

[Runitout]

I didn't go into any details about anyone. No names. Nothing. Same as me. All that will be public, eventually. That's been an inevitability for almost 3 yrs now. Just wait.

You thirst for blood will be sated.

I know you think we're all just bloodthirsty DDIFP bent on vengeance, but really the analogy is more like a cuckolded husband. We're sick of being lied to; after all the lies, we just want the unvarnished truth, though the heavens fall.

As fans, we can't get get closure, because we can't be sure that the betrayal is not ongoing. Anything that smells of dissembling, or shows a lack of candour, smells like the same ol' s%&t to us.

 

[eyemgh]

I think it's just a matter of time before the dam breaks. There aren't enough people left willing or able to plug the holes.

M

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

You thirst for blood will be sated.

Well, to be fair, it's not OUR thirst for blood.
We just want to hear the details of yours.

Honestly, though, it's just morbid curiosity at this point. I have a 5-year old. I would never want him to become a pro cyclist. I love the sport, but dislike garbage like McQuaid, Armstrong, Bruyneel, Verbruggen, Ferrari, and others who have polluted it. (I am not including you in that list.)

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I'm in no way sold that the "numbers" really mean much in terms of my desire for clean cycling.

Sure, the stompers' VAM has come down. But why does that only matter.

If we're only referencing the top 10% of the peloton, then the other 90% could very well be cranked just to make it.

The top guys are always going to be the top guys. What about the culture of guys who are fighting to make a pay cheque?

The numbers are a good argument, but in no way mean that cycling is clean.

 

[ExRower]

And quite frankly, if you think I have fear of being blackballed by the UCI, you need to think again. I could give a ****.

Go find the minutes from any UCI advisory board meeting. There's one ******* that raises his voice over and over again. That guy is definitely blackballed. That guy is me.

This is why I ride with a Garmin, hope I could eat Chipotle, and dream about owning a Cervelo. This is why I love JV.

 

[tofino]

We're clear on Garmin/Jorg?

I hope you guys are clear on why Garmin did not want to hire Jorg? It was not the doping.

I think some folks don't know all the BS that a director has to put up with during the season. Some guys don't fit in and it makes everyone's life hell.

You get questions like; why do I have to room with sour puss.
Our sour puss complaining he needs new tires although the mechanic stayed up late installing new tires for everyone.

JV's hiring is obviously passed on various issues and some are hard to see.

Thanks to JV coming into this thread. Notice no one else is showing up?

 

[_nm___]

Yes, Thomas is an arrogant ***. Or was. hugely insecure guy. It's been a lot of work with him. A lot....

why would you discuss things like that about a rider of yours in a forum?

 

[_nm___]

Jacksche has also been busy giving an interview to ekstra bladet today, part of which is also rendered in radsportnews.de

he is reported as saying a few things that aren’t in the cyclingnews interview:
----in one of the first consultations Fuentes expressed his surprise that Jaksche (then newly Liberty Seguros) hadn’t been sent to him for treatment while he was at CSC
----Jaksche thinks the good riders on CSC were all automatically sent to Fuentes
----Jaksche doesn’t think Riis is into clean cycling, thinks Riis is more concerned with image
----Jaksche has never seen Riis and Fuentes together, or heard them speak of each other, but assumes they do know each other



http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/sportnews_77533.htm
http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/article1819769.ece

 

[Kender]

IThanks to JV coming into this thread. Notice no one else is showing up?

indeed

I get the impression he's just dieing to say i told you so to a great many of his doubters on here.

the real question is how long do we have to wait for all the sordid details he;s eluded to? Well if i had to guess, it's would be after USADA has concluded the arbitration processes with bruyneel and marti

 

[ExRower]

Yes, Thomas is an arrogant ***. Or was. hugely insecure guy. It's been a lot of work with him. A lot....

Thomas is still pretty much a kid. He was still living with parents just a few years ago, and had (I believe) some issues with grades in school. It's great to see character formation being addressed, in one way or another, at Garmin.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This is why I ride with a Garmin, hope I could eat Chipotle, and dream about owning a Cervelo. This is why I love JV.

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhIzGqespNA

 

[Mr.38%]

According to local riders, Jaksche is not just smart but a smartass and wasn't easy to deal with. The same riders interestingly claimed that JJ (and also Sinkewitz, there are horror stories about him that sound credible) started abusing as early as Junior level.

According to JJ himself, he would have always been tempted to cheat - just because he's able to.

The German scene is as small as the US American scene and it has been proven true, if there is smoke, there is fire. There is no doubt that both, JJ and Sinke have been bullyed impetuously, though.

It's not that easy, blaming it on omertà and all.