Joe Papp interview

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry! I'm not up for duel (neither swords nor pistols). Insult me until it makes you feel better. Nevertheless, Mr. Papp is not on the up and up. His self-promotion is an attempt to profit from dishonorable behavior.

It is EASY to understand the needle. A rider invests his whole body and soul into the sport, only to discover that success demands chemical assistance. The rider then has a choice to make--a choice that will define him for the remainder of his sporting life--Am I a MAN, or am I a WEASEL.

A man without much in his life (Pantani or Vandenbroucke, for example) can be forgiven for staking everything on a corrupt cycling career. Papp, even with a much lamer career, is much harder to forgive because he was a smart boy with potential. He had (and maybe still has) potential for honest accomplishment.

But Papp still projects himself as an accomplished (self-important) cyclist. He should get past that and work toward a future that acknowledges he was a big lying cheat. THEN he can work toward a future that complements his obvious potential.

As for me, Maserati, I'm just a spectator. I wish I could be a fan, but cheaters preclude that.

Firstly - I never insulted you, I just pointed out that in making your arguement you left out a rather big piece.

May I ask what have you bought from Papp? One of his books, t-shirt, the Papp bike, training shoe's....?

Joe acknowledges that he doped - and unlike most does not try and dismiss what he has done.

 

[Barrus]

Joe, a small question. If I am correct you set a while ago that the case was postponed for a while, do you have already a new date, or are you still in limbo?

 

[lean mean &green]

There is nothing funny about this - I called you on being, in your words "wholly dishonorable". I did not realize that is a term for those convicted of PED using or dealing.

you've equated JP's cheating/dealing with a guy needing to be succinct because he's typing on a smartphone as equally dishonorable? dude, seriously? the only reason this type of argument seems to work is because its so confusing, not because it's valid.

To your second question - I would think you were never good enough to be a Pro Racer, even if those around you were on PED's.
This may seem harsh - but I think you can only critise as you do about others when you have little understanding about the 'hows and whys' those that go for the needle do.

you don't know the poster and neither do i. how is it safe to assume he is talentless and brainless. if this is your rebuttal, you've most certainly lost the argument.

Sadly in Professional Cycling you don't choose to dope - you choose not to.

huh?

it's not difficult to understand that a bunch of guys living in PA are upset with JP, is it? JP raced in the PA/midatlantic region often because he lived in western PA MOST of his career. people directly cheated by a doper are going to be slow to forgive. i'd also hazard a guess that JP flooded the midatlantic region where they would like to race clean with a lot of doping product. figuring out why their reaction is stronger or why they see JP as a self-promoter (obviously true) isn't rocket science. it doesn't justify weird harassments about prison rape but i don't really see joe as a delicate flower greatly upset by this; we're talking about a guy who made a distasteful wise crack about fornicating with farm animals earlier in this very thread. this selective sensitivity can't be explained, beastiality ok, prison rape not ok? joking about either is equally offensive and unecessary to me. as a PA resident/racer i can tell you that some of the events in which joe rode enhanced are a long way from from the TdF and these grandiose justifications for using/dealing fall flat. the pressure to perform at the turkey hill country classic in it's first few years of existence ain't the same as paris-roubaix. joe most certainly trounced clean local fields on a regular basis too. a heavy dose of perspective is needed.

it's also not difficult to understand that a bunch of forum regulars who only interact through the internet and didn't do their homework on JP from the start are too embarrassed to admit they were wrong. the "regulars" were too quick to label him a hero for testifying against landis having little or no understanding of anything else. now backpedaling, they ignore joe's rude remarks and self-promotion afraid to re-shape their opinion. as if that isn't enough they leap to joe's defense, it IS funny. actually, it's hilarious to to watch people resist wiping egg off their face and instead apply more because joe's "nice" to them or because 1 out of every 50 of his posts is helpful.

on one side we have an over-reaction of dislike. on the other side we have irrational support. that is the JP phenomenon and in my opinion it's an absolute bore.

 

[flicker]

I do not care for Joe, as I do not like small time dopers. Doping in local races is low. It is bad that the top pros and olympians dope regularly but to dope in local races is unnecessary and unfair.
I hope he doesn't get prison time. The government could use him for other things, talking to athletic groups in high school, cutting brush, patching pavement, dicey repairs inside leaky reactors etc.
I would also hear cronologicaly when he started doping, who he sold dope to and the results by the dopers. That would be enlightening.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

you've equated JP's cheating/dealing with a guy needing to be succinct because he's typing on a smartphone as equally dishonorable? dude, seriously? the only reason this type of argument seems to work is because its so confusing, not because it's valid.

Firstly, the original poster has said nothing about dealing - if that was their point then I'd agree.
They weren't responding to a post - they took the time to start one. So using a fone is no excuse to make a statement that was inaccurate.
I'm not equating doping with their post - I am pointing out the hypocricy in their view.

you don't know the poster and neither do i. how is it safe to assume he is talentless and brainless. if this is your rebuttal, you've most certainly lost the argument.

Again - we do. I went online and checked their results. I never ever called them brainless.

huh?

it's not difficult to understand that a bunch of guys living in PA are upset with JP, is it? JP raced in the PA/midatlantic region often because he lived in western PA MOST of his career. people directly cheated by a doper are going to be slow to forgive. i'd also hazard a guess that JP flooded the midatlantic region where they would like to race clean with a lot of doping product. figuring out why their reaction is stronger or why they see JP as a self-promoter (obviously true) isn't rocket science. it doesn't justify weird harassments about prison rape but i don't really see joe as a delicate flower greatly upset by this; we're talking about a guy who made a distasteful wise crack about fornicating with farm animals earlier in this very thread. this selective sensitivity can't be explained, beastiality ok, prison rape not ok? joking about either is equally offensive and unecessary to me. as a PA resident/racer i can tell you that some of the events in which joe rode enhanced are a long way from from the TdF and these grandiose justifications for using/dealing fall flat. the pressure to perform at the turkey hill country classic in it's first few years of existence ain't the same as paris-roubaix. joe most certainly trounced clean local fields on a regular basis too. a heavy dose of perspective is needed.

it's also not difficult to understand that a bunch of forum regulars who only interact through the internet and didn't do their homework on JP from the start are too embarrassed to admit they were wrong. the "regulars" were too quick to label him a hero for testifying against landis having little or no understanding of anything else. now backpedaling, they ignore joe's rude remarks and self-promotion afraid to re-shape their opinion. as if that isn't enough they leap to joe's defense, it IS funny. actually, it's hilarious to to watch people resist wiping egg off their face and instead apply more because joe's "nice" to them or because 1 out of every 50 of his posts is helpful.

on one side we have an over-reaction of dislike. on the other side we have irrational support. that is the JP phenomenon and in my opinion it's an absolute bore.

Again - you need to go back and reread what I wrote.
Your are putting in a lot of views in the above that I never ever said nor agree with.

I don't see why MarkW or anyone else needs to make stuff up to mak Joe look 'worse'.
It's really simple - Joe was a dealer.

Forget the people of PA - I am mad at Joe. I am not defending Joe, as his actions and in particular the dealing simple disgust me.

You and I agree on a lot more than you think we do - although our routes to those conclusions are different.
I am just putting some perspective in some of the arguements that have been made.

 

[gearmasher]

I do not care for Joe, as I do not like small time dopers. Doping in local races is low. It is bad that the top pros and olympians dope regularly but to dope in local races is unnecessary and unfair.I hope he doesn't get prison time. The government could use him for other things, talking to athletic groups in high school, cutting brush, patching pavement, dicey repairs inside leaky reactors etc.
I would also hear cronologicaly when he started doping, who he sold dope to and the results by the dopers. That would be enlightening.

Doping in local races is unnecessary and worse than doping in the olympics? How do you think people reach the next level...any next level? It's all the same, someone clean being cheated.

 

[hiero2]

This statement gives just a little more credibility then to Floyd's claim that he didn't take T during the period he tested positive for it in the Tour. It opens up again all those arguments about problems with the T test. It may seem old, old history to most now, and certainly doesn't change anything for Floyd or Joe, but will certainly be relevant when the next rider tests positive for T.

I wonder if a positive T-test is the income tax evasion charge for anti-doping authorities who can't prove blood doping or EPO.

Yep - kinda what I was wondering. We do have examples of supplement contamination that have been adjudicated to be valid, so that is another possibility, but I still had to wonder . . .

Joe P - thanks for the answer. Appreciated. Good luck.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I do not care for Joe, as I do not like small time dopers. Doping in local races is low. It is bad that the top pros and olympians dope regularly but to dope in local races is unnecessary and unfair.
I hope he doesn't get prison time. The government could use him for other things, talking to athletic groups in high school, cutting brush, patching pavement, dicey repairs inside leaky reactors etc.
I would also hear cronologicaly when he started doping, who he sold dope to and the results by the dopers. That would be enlightening.

So let me see if I have this right, doping to win $50 in the local industrial park crit is contemptible while doping to win the TdF 7 times and make millions from it makes one a worthy focus of adulation and hero worship.

 

[joe_papp]

...Joe P - thanks for the answer. Appreciated. Good luck.

No problem.

PPl can always PM me too if there are questions pertaining to things outside the scope of the thread, but as I've said previously, I'm not going to discuss any legal matters or elaborate on things that aren't already in the public record.

BTW: I was hit by a car yesterday while riding, and for those who know Pittsburgh, the driver was a senior citizen who met most of the criteria of the Sophie Masloff stereotype. I pecked-out a post on the experience here: (Almost) Blood on the Road.

Lastly, I've noticed throughout the course of this year, both w/ respect to my particular situation and those faced by other riders, a surprising amount of hypocrisy, the applying of double-standards and inconsistencies in the positions taken publicly by critical commentators, inconsistencies which aren't explained by maturation of logic or shifting viewpoints. While I certainly have my favorite riders as a fan of the sport (ex. I like Vino a lot while I'm ambivalent about Levi), I don't believe in radical differences in the treatment of riders who are tangled in the doping web. And I think it's disturbing, or at least, embarrassing, to see such blatant persecution done at the hands of others. Though he ultimately admitted his bias and modified his position, I think the public comments of T. Phinney in regards to Vino after the Kazakh's win at L-B-L this year are representative of this on a sporting level, while the unconscionable application of a life-suspension in the case of Bernhard Kohl reflect it in officialdom. As for examples from fandom/the public, one only need read this forum.

Though there is a moral component to it, the anti-doping movement is inherently technical in its nature, and with good reason. From my experiences here, there are posters who would sentence some riders to capital punishment for doping, while doling-out suspended racing bans to others for similar offenses. Interesting.

 

[joe_papp]

I do not care for Joe, as I do not like small time dopers. Doping in local races is low. It is bad that the top pros and olympians dope regularly but to dope in local races is unnecessary and unfair.
I hope he doesn't get prison time. The government could use him for other things, talking to athletic groups in high school, cutting brush, patching pavement, dicey repairs inside leaky reactors etc.
I would also hear cronologicaly when he started doping, who he sold dope to and the results by the dopers. That would be enlightening.

If it's to me that he's referring, let me point out that I was controlled at the Tour of Turkey. By virtue of the argument, even Lance is doping to just win local races, as he competed in the US during times he was alleged to have been engaged in doping. lol