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Johann bruyneel as a DS.

Mar 13, 2009
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What do people think of Johann Bruyneel as a DS I keep hearing people talk about his tactical genius, but I don't see it. Where is the evidence?
 
Jul 23, 2009
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karlboss said:
What do people think of Johann Bruyneel as a DS I keep hearing people talk about his tactical genius, but I don't see it. Where is the evidence?

9 TdF wins as DS - 2 Giro - 2 Vuelta - 3 Tour de Georgia - 1 Volta a Catalunya - 2 Tour of Austria - 1 Paris-Nice - 4 Tour of California - 1 Tour of Missouri.

Some of the highlights (and I am not certain that it is current).
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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karlboss said:
What do people think of Johann Bruyneel as a DS I keep hearing people talk about his tactical genius, but I don't see it. Where is the evidence?

What do you mean "tactical genius".

What would evidence look like?

Would you know it if you saw it?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Taking the strongest rider and winning isn't tactical genius as far as I'm concerned. What were the tactics that got him those wins? What would I count as tactical genius? A move like rasmussen taking the overall TDF, or sastres wins.
I guess its tactics vs strategy, he always seems to have the strongest riders, none of whom return positives, but that has nothing to do with race day tactics.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
9 TdF wins as DS - 2 Giro - 2 Vuelta - 3 Tour de Georgia - 1 Volta a Catalunya - 2 Tour of Austria - 1 Paris-Nice - 4 Tour of California - 1 Tour of Missouri.

Some of the highlights (and I am not certain that it is current).

Johann did not drive the Giro wins

He is missing race the relies heavy on tactics and not who has the biggest engine.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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David Suro said:
Like it or not, his list of accomplishments is without parallel.

many who just started following the sport in 1999 are under this misguided assumption.

Anyone heard of Cyrille Guimard? Three different riders under him won the tour, 7 Tours de France, Liege, Roubaix, The Giro, The Vuelta, Lombardia, Fleche, The list is endless.

The Hog does not even come close, but he has been better at inventing a myth.
 

Polish

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Sastre won the Tour because Johaan's Team stayed home?

Cyrille Guimard went to jail for sleazy business deals?
Suprised he was not sued by Greg lol.
 
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Karlboss - if taking the strongest riders and winning isn't tactical genius, then 95% of GTs are not attributed to tactics...

I think credit to JB more for his management skills than his in the car tactics. Let's face it, he recruits the best teams for stage races.

US postal - nothing before he came along and transformed them
Astana - shattered before he came along and transformed them
RadioShack - didn't exist 6 months ago and have already assembled a very solid stage race team

His recruitment has been his key. Sure, he doesn't have the one-day wins, but that was never his priority, he is a GT recruitment manager IMO.

And before people start saying that he only recruited the best becuase he was given the sponsorship money then thats BS becoz US postal were a small budget professional team before he came along. he was not handed money, he proved that by recruiting solid united team helpers all working for one leader, a GT can be won.

Rather than saying he has/hasn't any race day "tactics", he did employ a very good "strategy" to winning GTs. if people can't give alot of credit and respect to that, they are obviously blinded by their hatred of JBs favourite rider.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Race Radio said:
many who just started following the sport in 1999 are under this misguided assumption.

Anyone heard of Cyrille Guimard? Three different riders under him won the tour, 7 Tours de France, Liege, Roubaix, The Giro, The Vuelta, Lombardia, Fleche, The list is endless.

The Hog does not even come close, but he has been better at inventing a myth.

Not sure how you can say "not even close" the list you provide looks rather familiar.
 

Polish

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Race Radio said:
Guimard never went to jail. While Guimard may have been the better DS' The Hog wins the "Who is a bigger dirtbag" Contest

Suspended sentence kept him from spending time behind bars.
Bribed the judge probably:(
Bigger dirtbag sorry.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
Not sure how you can say "not even close" the list you provide looks rather familiar.

How many times did The Hog drive the car when one of his riders won Roubaix, Tour of Flanders (Twice), Gent Wevelgem, Tour of Lombardia (twice), Milan-Sanremo(Twice) Amstel Gold, Dauphiné Libéré (3 times), Criterium International, Tour de l'Avenir, Clásica de San Sebastián?

Not even close.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I tend to agree with mountain goat, JBs big skill has been recruiting the right riders as a strategy for GT wins. He may be a tactical genius, I'm just yet to see it.
I guess you take 10000 men to battle against 1000 and win maybe you are a tactical genius, maybe not...you take that 1000 and win...
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Race Radio said:
How many times did The Hog drive the car when one of his riders won Roubaix, Tour of Flanders (Twice), Gent Wevelgem, Tour of Lombardia (twice), Milan-Sanremo(Twice) Amstel Gold, Dauphiné Libéré (3 times), Criterium International, Tour de l'Avenir, Clásica de San Sebastián?

Not even close.

The question is: where is the evidence of tactical genius - seems there are some results based evidence. This is not the list you first had down - I could add to mine as well for Bruyneel. Seems that both have had good results, but as was pointed out up-thread, only one has been convicted (although the conviction does not indicate a lack of tactical genius).
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Polish said:
And Cyrille Guimard was BANISHED from the Sport forever.

What?

He currently is DS' of the Pro Continental team VC Roubiax. He is 62 and does it for the love of the sport.

main.php
 
Aug 13, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
The question is: where is the evidence of tactical genius - seems there are some results based evidence. This is not the list you first had down - I could add to mine as well for Bruyneel. Seems that both have had good results, but as was pointed out up-thread, only one has been convicted (although the conviction does not indicate a lack of tactical genius).

Please, add to the Hog's list. It will still not come close. Note the list I provided is filled with Classics, where tactics actually mean something

You should read Hinault's biography. He credits Guimard tactics for many of his single day race wins, even though they had a falling out he still recognizes his genius.
 

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Race Radio said:
What?

He currently is DS' of the Pro Continental team VC Roubiax. He is 62 and does it for the love of the sport.

Banished from the Major League.
VC Roubaix is no RadioShack.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Please, add to the Hog's list. It will still not come close. Note the list I provided is filled with Classics, where tactics actually mean something

You should read Hinault's biography. He credits Guimard tactics for many of his single day race wins, even though they had a falling out he still recognizes his genius.

Could you point out where I suggested that Guimard was not gifted tactically please? I just pointed out they have similar results suggesting they each might know something about winning races.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Please, add to the Hog's list. It will still not come close. Note the list I provided is filled with Classics, where tactics actually mean something

You should read Hinault's biography. He credits Guimard tactics for many of his single day race wins, even though they had a falling out he still recognizes his genius.

come on RR, you are forgetting one of his finest accomplishments that Graham Watson brought to life
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Aug 13, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
Could you point out where I suggested that Guimard was not gifted tactically please? I just pointed out they have similar results suggesting they each might know something about winning races.

You asked "where is the evidence of tactical genius" and I referred you to Hinault's biography. The Badger was one of, if not the, greatest tacticians in the history of the sport. He says he learned it from Guimard

You might be able to say that The Hog and Guimard have similar results if you take out all of of Guimard's monument wins and replace them with The Tour of Missouri and Redlands.

I have seen little evidence of the Hog's tactical brilliance in the car, outside of the car is a different story. He is very astute politically and knows how to get his team "Prepared" for the big races.
 
CentralCaliBike said:
9 TdF wins as DS - 2 Giro - 2 Vuelta - 3 Tour de Georgia - 1 Volta a Catalunya - 2 Tour of Austria - 1 Paris-Nice - 4 Tour of California - 1 Tour of Missouri.

Some of the highlights (and I am not certain that it is current).

You do realize he wasn't the DS at the Giro and Vuelta, right?
But one cannot deny the fact that he's an exceptional tactician. The guy understands cycling.