Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Rackham]

They are lying about what? Pneumotorax, collarbone or broken ribs?

I'll let people who want to believe cherry-pick what they actually trust coming from these people.

The material point is when people said it would be impossible for Vingegaard to go from the reported injuries he sustained in April to winning the Tour de France in July, they were right. It's not rocket science.

The part where 'disbelievers' weren't right is the part where Visma & the rider did something behind the scenes along with way which the public didn't see, i.e. in terms of their communication & medical preparation.

That's the key ingredient.

 

[fenns]

the next 2 days are going to see our hero mutate into something truly monstrous.

but nothing sinister here folks - JV was short of form coing into the race - so much so that he lost a whole minute to the GC leader - he's ridden himself into form now*


*but still not quite at his absolute best!

 

[Netserk]

I'll let people who want to believe cherry-pick what they actually trust coming from these people.

The material point is when people said it would be impossible for Vingegaard to go from the reported injuries he sustained in April to winning the Tour de France in July, they were right. It's not rocket science.

The part where 'disbelievers' weren't right is the part where Visma & the rider did something behind the scenes along with way which the public didn't see, i.e. in terms of their communication & medical preparation.

That's the key ingredient.

I believe the first updates from the team. They said very little for a long time. That may have led to the impression that his condition was worse than what they said, but I don't think any of their public factual claims about his injuries were untruthful.

I don't believe all the public doubt about whether or not he would ride the Tour.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Pogacar does the same thing. He goes nuts when it's risk free, and shuts the hell down when he might get countered.

Hm, really? As I see it, Pog and Vinge have very different styles. Vinge rides tactically much smarter - to the point that it gets tedious at times (e.g. the wheel sucking). Pog does a lot of flashy stuff and could probably benefit from adopting a little of Vinge's conservatism. For example, last year, on the day after Vinge dropped him with ease on the first mountain stage, he finally played it smart by staying in the wheel when the Visma train rode away from the whole peloton Gewiss Ballan style, kept Vingegaard's wheel on the final mountain and then made a single explosion with the right timing where he dropped Vinge and won half a minute or so. This year, the Galibier attack worked out well because of the descent, but other than that I think it's fair to say that Pog in general scatters his energy much too frequently all over the place.

 

[ElDesordenado]

the next 2 days are going to see our hero mutate into something truly monstrous.

but nothing sinister here folks - JV was short of form coing into the race - so much so that he lost a whole minute to the GC leader - he's ridden himself into form now*


*but still not quite at his absolute best!

Right. The narrative will be: Pog tired himself out by riding the Giro, and by attacking on the gravel stage etc. when he didn't need to. Vinge came in undercooked which allowed him to gradually build his form in the race and peak just when the route started suiting him best. His unique physiological ability to recover got him through the injuries quicker than most thought possible and also ensured that he didn't break down during the first half of the TdF but rather got more and more fresh as the race got harder.

I think Vinge will win this TdF, and the Pog demolition starts this weekend. It will reach its peak on stage 19 and 21.

 

[Rackham]

I believe the first updates from the team. They said very little for a long time. That may have led to the impression that his condition was worse than what they said, but I don't think any of their publicly factual claims about his injuries were untruthful.

I don't believe all the public doubt about whether or not he would ride the Tour.

Visma have trivialized those injuries to the point they're irrelevant to the performance of a professional athlete in an endurance sport 3 months later. On paper, it's practically unheard of.

There's only a few explanations, i.e. on one hand there's a miracle, a man with miraculous physical abilities, a man with miraculous recovery... or on the other hand there's liars, professional dopers & maybe a bit of both.

Oh I'm pretty sure Vingegaard is winning this Tour de France now. But I'm also sure he'll find himself in an unenviable position which all Tour dominators find themselves in, i.e. a position all the family guy pr & crying on camera won't protect him from, aka suspicions. That's the cost of winning the TdF in ridiculous almost comical circumstances where suspension of disbelief goes too far. Or maybe I'm wrong & the bigger the lie, the more people will be inclined to believe. I don't know anymore so I won't speculate too much re the public reception of this miracle Tour.

Pog meanwhile is going to have a serious headache if this TdF goes badly for him. It'll demolish his own reputation as the new Merckx.

 

[fenns]

Visma have trivialized those injuries to the point they're irrelevant to the performance of a professional athlete in an endurance sport 3 months later. On paper, it's practically unheard of.

There's only a few explanations, i.e. on one hand there's a miracle, a man with miraculous physical abilities, a man with miraculous recovery... or on the other hand there's liars, professional dopers & maybe a bit of both.

Oh I'm pretty sure Vingegaard is winning this Tour de France now. But I'm also sure he'll find himself in an unenviable position which all Tour dominators find themselves in, i.e. a position all the family guy pr & crying on camera won't protect him from, aka suspicions. That's the cost of winning the TdF in ridiculous almost comical circumstances where suspension of disbelief goes too far. Or maybe I'm wrong & the bigger the lie, the more people will be inclined to believe. I don't know anymore so I won't speculate too much re the public reception of this miracle Tour.

Pog meanwhile is going to have a serious headache if this TdF goes badly for him. It'll demolish his own reputation as the new Merckx.

Carlton's going to be jizzing himself at the JV miracle

 

[ElDesordenado]

Visma have trivialized those injuries to the point they're irrelevant to the performance of a professional athlete in an endurance sport 3 months later. On paper, it's practically unheard of.

There's only a few explanations, i.e. on one hand there's a miracle, a man with miraculous physical abilities, a man with miraculous recovery... or on the other hand there's liars, professional dopers & maybe a bit of both.

Oh I'm pretty sure Vingegaard is winning this Tour de France now. But I'm also sure he'll find himself in an unenviable position which all Tour dominators find themselves in, i.e. a position all the family guy pr & crying on camera won't protect him from, aka suspicions. That's the cost of winning the TdF in ridiculous almost comical circumstances where suspension of disbelief goes too far. Or maybe I'm wrong & the bigger the lie, the more people will be inclined to believe. I don't know anymore so I won't speculate too much re the public reception of this miracle Tour.

I think you're right about the increased suspicion, even if it's become a common belief here in DK at least that doping was purely a thing of "the past" ie the Armstrong years and the 90s. I remember Brian Holm saying on a Danish morning feel good news show last year that he thought there was virtually no doping in the peloton because riders' attitudes had changed. A pretty bold statement when you look e.g. at who's running UAE and Visma, and how their riders are performing. But a third victory in a row would put Vinge on another historical level - with Froome, Armstrong, and Indurain who are the only ones who have done that in the last 30 years. And Vinge will show that he could pull that off with a month and a half of preparation, coming off an injury so severe he thought at one point he was going to die. That just has to give rise to some skepticism.

Pog meanwhile is going to have a serious headache if this TdF goes badly for him. It'll demolish his own reputation as the new Merckx.

Exactly. If he can't beat Vinge under these circumstances, then when is he ever going to win the TdF again? It'll be like Ullrich who was expected to win 5+ TdFs but ended up with a lot of 2nd places. And that should also mean a shift in how the race is covered: Commentators can't keep hyping Pog as the favourite if Vinge consistently beats him.

 

[fenns]

I've tried posting in the Pog thread in the main forum to try to help his fans who think he can ride away from JV in the mountains. They are in for a serious shock but will no doubt have excuses ready,

 

[Rackham]

Carlton's going to be jizzing himself at the JV miracle

I decided I don't like Carlton much after he insinuated Rog might have deliberately crashed behind Evenepoel on stage 11 in order to abuse the 3km rule.

Lots of people probably have a reason to hate on Kirby. That was mine.

Very silly of Tadej to not race the Tour de France against farmers and semiprofessionals

It's no joke.

This Tour is a crossroads for the 'fantastic 4':

- could Rog finally complete the race at least? Apparently the Gods of cycling said no.

- can Evenepoel survive the high mountains in the third week of a GT as hard as the Tour? If he does he could be a serious contender for the Tour in the future based on the route, whereas if he doesn't & gets dropped like in last year's Vuelta on the Tourmalet stage, he's stuffed.

- is Vingegaard invincible no matter what? We're about to find out.

- is Pog really the cannibal or just an all-rounder who wins monuments & GT's but doesn't win against this best in the world (which would be Vingegaard)? We're about to find out that one as well.

Fun, fun.

 

[snipeheem]

I've tried posting in the Pog thread in the main forum to try to help his fans who think he can ride away from JV in the mountains. They are in for a serious shock but will no doubt have excuses ready,

We will see today and tomorrow

 

[Netserk]

Visma have trivialized those injuries to the point they're irrelevant to the performance of a professional athlete in an endurance sport 3 months later. On paper, it's practically unheard of.

There's only a few explanations, i.e. on one hand there's a miracle, a man with miraculous physical abilities, a man with miraculous recovery... or on the other hand there's liars, professional dopers & maybe a bit of both.

Oh I'm pretty sure Vingegaard is winning this Tour de France now. But I'm also sure he'll find himself in an unenviable position which all Tour dominators find themselves in, i.e. a position all the family guy pr & crying on camera won't protect him from, aka suspicions. That's the cost of winning the TdF in ridiculous almost comical circumstances where suspension of disbelief goes too far. Or maybe I'm wrong & the bigger the lie, the more people will be inclined to believe. I don't know anymore so I won't speculate too much re the public reception of this miracle Tour.

Pog meanwhile is going to have a serious headache if this TdF goes badly for him. It'll demolish his own reputation as the new Merckx.

I think it's exaggerated how big an impact such injuries have for a bike rider who was in stellar form at the time of the accident (and who will be loaded up on all kinds of drugs). Steff Cras crashed maybe even worse, and he has also fully recovered. The nature of the injuries are such that if without complications you will only have lost training time after you are recovered. His legs and hips were unaffected.

I think most of the suspicion wrt. his injuries is because others cannot say that it's because of doping that he has been able to make such a comeback. And if other teams find him outrageous in that regard, but don't want to break omertà, they can only point their finger at his injuries.

 

[DrSahl]

I've tried posting in the Pog thread in the main forum to try to help his fans who think he can ride away from JV in the mountains. They are in for a serious shock but will no doubt have excuses ready,

Personally I think Pog will destroy Vingegaard today. I don´t believe any of them, but I do think that Vingegaard´s crash earlier this year will start to effect him more. Then again last time I predicted him to lose to Pog he ended up winning by ease.

 

[Blobs]

But a third victory in a row would put Vinge on another historical level - with Froome, Armstrong, and Indurain who are the only ones who have done that in the last 30 years.

And Contador

 

[Heston]

the next 2 days are going to see our hero mutate into something truly monstrous.

but nothing sinister here folks - JV was short of form coing into the race - so much so that he lost a whole minute to the GC leader - he's ridden himself into form now*


*but still not quite at his absolute best!

I wonder if you people actually feel bad now that everything you said before this stage was proven wrong. But probably you will just continue your propaganda

 

[Rackham]

I wonder if you people actually feel bad now that everything you said before this stage was proven wrong. But probably you will just continue your propaganda

As if dropping 39 seconds against that Pog on Pla d'Adet & finishing 31 seconds ahead of Evenepoel is a sign of 'clean racing'.

I mean really. It's not just winners who juice it.

 

[Heston]

As if dropping 39 seconds against that Pog on Pla d'Adet & finishing 31 seconds ahead of Evenepoel is a sign of 'clean racing'.

I mean really. It's not just winners who juice it.

I dont think any of the top GC riders are clean.

But people were already pre-crying about how Vinge would destroy Pog today because the dope would somehow make the effects of the injury go away. And that is just clearly wrong, Vinge's long efforts are much worse than last year.

 

[fenns]

I wonder if you people actually feel bad now that everything you said before this stage was proven wrong. But probably you will just continue your propaganda

not sure we saw anything new today - Pog has always been able to gap JV by 30 secs but he never seems to widen it. At least today JV did not catch him but there are more summit finished to come.

 

[Heston]

not sure we saw anything new today - Pog has always been able to gap JV by 30 secs but he never seems to widen it. At least today JV did not catch him but there are more summit finished to come.

Always? He has done that 1 time the last 2 years, when Vinge tried a long range attack on Tourmalet last year and felt the consequence of it in the end.

What we saw today happened 0 times the last 2 years.

 

[snipeheem]

We can stop pretending this is peak Vingegaard. This is like March shape at best

I dont know 2 days ago he was 99% or in peak today he is in March shape.

 

[Heston]

I dont know 2 days ago he was 99% or in peak today he is in March shape.

He was not 99 % 2 days ago. If he was 99 % he wouldnt have been 30 seconds behind to begin with on Pertus.

 

[snipeheem]

He was not 99 % 2 days ago. If he was 99 % he wouldnt have been 30 seconds behind to begin with on Pertus.

Some people here said he was

 

[Heston]

I hate to be this guy but am i the only one knowing Pogacar rode with a broken wrist last tour de france? what happened in PN before the injury?

Why is 2023 such a sticky reference to some people when you know he limited and the energy spent on the fracture, rode in pain etc. 2023 as a reference to anything is so wild to me and cope mechanism to me atleast but people are different.

I see your posts as more cope than anything else.

Vinge has dropped Pogacar on the long mountain stages in 2021, 2022 and 2023, yet you make up excuses for all of it. But somehow you also think Vinge having a punctured lung in April is not an excuse.

Vinge is clearly more injured this year than Pogacar was last year. I doubt you can find a doctor in the world who would say otherwise.

 

[solo80k]

I dont know 2 days ago he was 99% or in peak today he is in March shape.

Well, we will know more tomorrow. Our dear Danish Fisherman can't efforts to lose another 40+ seconds. He needs to use a big, blood bag and try to exchange blows by winning tomorrow, even with a small gap.

 

[ElDesordenado]

I wonder if you people actually feel bad now that everything you said before this stage was proven wrong. But probably you will just continue your propaganda

I was surprised that Pog managed to get that gap today. At first I thought it was business as usual: Pog exploded away - Vingegaard kept the gap at around 10-15 seconds. I thought Vinge would reel him in.

If Pog does this once more and avoids having any breakdowns, he could ride conservatively in Vinge's wheel and win the race even if Vinge pulls off a TT like last year. But let's see what happens. Vinge said he had calculated with being up to two min behind even before this stage, yet still believed he could win the race in week 3. Great chance for Pog now, but we'll have to see what happens tomorrow and on stage 19.

Side story: I'm shocked with how Evenepoel has improved his climbing since Dauphine. He struggled a lot in that race; now he's flying - crushing everyone but the two super mutants.