Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Cookster15]

Well however thermonuclear we know Wout was this TdF that just makes what Vingo just achieved even more unbelievable. I still can’t get my head around that final TT for a lightweight. He might have beaten Wout if he didn’t celebrate early?

 

[BR2]

Well however thermonuclear we know Wout was this TdF that just makes what Vingo just achieved even more unbelievable. I still can’t get my head around that final TT for a lightweight. He might have beaten Wout if he didn’t celebrate early?

Actually I don't think he celebrated too early. He gave it up to win the stage when he realized he wouldn't win and just celebrated his yellow jersey. But there was this moment when he took that corner too tight, and maybe that cost him already, maybe he was then told to take it slightly easier... It definitely was some performance anyway.

 

[Cookster15]

Actually I don't think he celebrated too early. He gave it up to win the stage when he realized he wouldn't win and just celebrated his yellow jersey. But there was this moment when he took that corner too tight, and maybe that cost him already, maybe he was then told to take it slightly easier... It definitely was some performance anyway.

It was more than some performance. He could easily have beaten a thermonuclear WvA. A skeleton climber who few knew of before last year’s TdF. It’s right up there with Pantani’s TTs in 1998.

 

[ciranda]

He was quoted as being 58 kg at his lightest in 2018. I don't know what he weights now, but he was very trimmed already at the start of the Tour, that much is clear. He has the same height as Contador, and their legs seem similarly muscular. So maybe he is a kg or two lighter?

Way more allround muscular today than in that old tv segment.

Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.

Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.

 

[Cookster15]

Way more muscular legs today than in that old tv segment.

Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.

Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.

looks like a real specialist

Looks like a specialist? Just checked his record again. No TT wins which is unheard of for pros who set this level at the Tour de France. Gifted genetics apparently?

Was that a super hilly course favorable to climbers? 50.7km/h for 40.7km after three weeks of hard racing at a record average speed in record temperatures.

Vingo the "new alpha mutant" looks and smells like a super responder to me. We know the passport can be fooled with careful techniques. Under the might of JV's medical support team he won't suffer Cobo's belated fate.

 

[Nick2413]

Well however thermonuclear we know Wout was this TdF that just makes what Vingo just achieved even more unbelievable. I still can’t get my head around that final TT for a lightweight. He might have beaten Wout if he didn’t celebrate early?

I already fully expected Vingo to win or podium the TT if he tried. The TT performances of Pog and Vingo the last 2 years have been arguably more suspect than their climbing performances, and not just PDBF.

Pog won that even flatter TT by half a minute over Wout last year and V even beat Wout as well. Just imagine seeing a rider like Vingegaard dropping Wout on the flats during a stage if he ever got a gap.

Neither of them, including Pogacar, have ever been world class at TTs outside of the tour, but during the tour they’re both in contention for the win on every TT. Vingegaard’s Tour TT results are 3, 3, 7, and 2, not bad for a guy who got 19th in the Danish TT championships a couple years ago, which shouldn’t be a race where you’re saving it to do domestique work.


You would think TTs are less affected by doping than climbing ability given the absolute wattage component but clearly that doesn’t seem to be the case. I agree if these guys can keep up with Wout and Ganna on the flats then they probably have even more capability than they’re showing in the mountains.

 

[Cookster15]

I already fully expected Vingo to win or podium the TT if he tried. The TT performances of Pog and Vingo the last 2 years have been arguably more suspect than their climbing performances, and not just PDBF.

Pog won that even flatter TT by half a minute over Wout last year and V even beat Wout as well. Just imagine seeing a rider like Vingegaard dropping Wout on the flats during a stage if he ever got a gap.

Neither of them, including Pogacar, have ever been world class at TTs outside of the tour, but during the tour they’re both in contention for the win on every TT. Vingegaard’s Tour TT results are 3, 3, 7, and 2, not bad for a guy who got 19th in the Danish TT championships a couple years ago, which shouldn’t be a race where you’re saving it to do domestique work.


You would think TTs are less affected by doping than climbing ability given the absolute wattage component but clearly that doesn’t seem to be the case. I agree if these guys can keep up with Wout and Ganna on the flats then they probably have even more capability than they’re showing in the mountains.

Agree with your comments. Pantani and Birillo did similar during their feats. And as you say this suggests Vingo was holding back on the mountains.

As for Pog he does have some TT results as far back as 2016 - 1st in Slovenian Junior TT champs. I can’t see anything in Vingo’s record remotely close.

 

[yaco]

Yes, I still remember when Yates "learned" how to time trial all of a sudden. Amazing stuff, really.

Don't underestimate the equipment used at BEX - Both men's and women's teams are flying in ITT's.

 

[deej1]

Is there a trend of smaller guys/climbers improving their TTs relative to larger guys? Remco, Yateses, Vingeaard, Pidcock. Also, Alaphilipe, Rog and Pog

If so, what doping might explain. I think some people think that larger guys seemed to benefit more from EPO - Mig, LA - and from weight loss - Mig, LA, Froome, Wiggins. Might there be something that helps small guys more than big now? If so, what?

If not, what else might explain it?

It might be as simple as focussing on TTs. Small guys typically see themselves as climbers and larger guys as TT specialists, and so they focus on what they're good at from an early age and get good at that. So there are a lot of gains to be made by actually focussing on TTing. Perhaps Evenepoel's TT-ing has made smaller riders realise they can do more in this respect. Plus general increase in professionalism.

Also, smaller guys might be better at improving their position on the bike once they focus on it. (As relatively physically stronger, less prone to injury)

 

[Netserk]

Is there a trend of smaller guys/climbers improving their TTs relative to larger guys? Remco, Yateses, Vingeaard, Pidcock. Also, Alaphilipe, Rog and Pog

If so, what doping might explain. I think some people think that larger guys seemed to benefit more from EPO - Mig, LA - and from weight loss - Mig, LA, Froome, Wiggins. Might there be something that helps small guys more than big now? If so, what?

If not, what else might explain it?

It might be as simple as focussing on TTs. Small guys typically see themselves as climbers and larger guys as TT specialists, and so they focus on what they're good at from an early age and get good at that. So there are a lot of gains to be made by actually focussing on TTing. Perhaps Evenepoel's TT-ing has made smaller riders realise they can do more in this respect. Plus general increase in professionalism.

Also, smaller guys might be better at improving their position on the bike once they focus on it. (As relatively physically stronger, less prone to injury)

I think regulations and changes of positions matter more for the difference between small and big riders than doping. Someone here has mentioned that the rules will be changed again next year, favouring taller riders.

Some years ago, it was typical for the arms to be horizontal, now it's more like a praying mantis.

 

[Riek s]

Way more allround muscular today than in that old tv segment.

Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.

Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.

Remco:
flat back, helmet exit align with back (with TT helmet ofcourse)
extreme small frontal area. his head + hand cover his complete upper body
extremely flat

Second picture:
no flat back, helmet does not align to the back it does ~.
frontal area, nothing out of the ordinary compared to the bigger riders. hands + head + a gap in between (or above since his back isn't aligned. so head goes down = back is not covered)


Remco is also a bit heavier and pushes more W than Vingegaard. So him competing in a TT with the best makes a lot more sense than vingegaard.

 

[topt]

Lol. That's an interesting assumption. May or may not be the case. Do you view this as a doping contest and what makes one the heavier doper? What if vingo is doping less has a great at response? In fact, what if the amount of doping is actually the opposite order of the podium ... G unit is literally a walking pharmacy, pogo is 75% chemically enhanced, and vingo is just topping up? I mean, there are quite a few permutations here, and it's all pretty laughable stuff at the top end isn't it?

hm, so you are going with Armstrong was no worse of a doper than anybody else; if it is not important how much you dope and with what that we can also put Merckx high on doping list. We have seen fisherman "doping less" he is not as good. JV has some new stuff.

 

[Ripper]

hm, so you are going with Armstrong was no worse of a doper than anybody else; if it is not important how much you dope and with what that we can also put Merckx high on doping list. We have seen fisherman "doping less" he is not as good. JV has some new stuff.

You've not answered the questions, which I guess answers a different question.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So what are the next races for our hero? I suppose Vin-1000 will be undergoing lab works until the next summer and a less advanced twin model will be activated for a few races in the meantime.

 

[topt]

You've not answered the questions, which I guess answers a different question.

what makes one the heavier doper ? improvement from baseline; is Pogacar a much better rider at baseline; hell yes.
If everybody( guys like Froome or Fisherman) can become a winner that is not a sport anymore , its a doping competition.

 

[danielovichdk2]

No one dopes anymore.

Get over it.

 

[deej1]

what makes one the heavier doper ? improvement from baseline

Two guys do the same Dope-X program and one has a larger response, would you say they were the heavier doper? Not really.

Also, for various reasons, people develop and peak at different ages even in the absence of doping.

 

[Cookster15]

Two guys do the same Dope-X program and one has a larger response, would you say they were the heavier doper? Not really.

Also, for various reasons, people develop and peak at different ages even in the absence of doping.

Of course if you have a larger response you are a heavier doper. That was Lance's secret. You can be a mediocre talent boosted into a TdF winner. There are science papers which conclude that riders with naturally higher aerobic capacities respond less to oxygen vector doping.

As for your second sentence name one other rider with a such a mediocre pre Tour winning palmarès as Vingo?

Contador? - no.
Evans (2011) - no
Wiggins - no
Froome - yes, but obviously well discussed here as Vingo should be?
Nibali - turned pro 2005, won TdF 2014 -no
Geraint Thomas - possibly but had showed climbing ability long before 2018.
Egan Bernal - no
Pog - no

With one, possibly two exceptions these guys all showed glimpses of their potential before they won a TdF. Vingo didn't before that stage on Ventoux last year.

There is some stuff written about a Danish sports physiologist . But frankly it is less impressive than what was being said and written about Cadel Evans by various people whilst he was still in MTB. Remember Vingo beat Pog who until this year we all thought was near unbeatable? And this year Pog might well have been equally as nuclear as the two previous years.

Seems obvious to me Vingo was discovered to be a super responder and JV was the team with the budget to maximize that. 10 years ago this place would be white hot with Vingo. Disappointing.

 

[deej1]

Of course if you have a larger response you are a heavier doper.

Semantics I guess, but I don't think that's how most people would understand the term. Heavy seems to relate to amount of doping rather than the amount of response. See heavy drinkers.

From that list Thomas would've had a better Palmares if he hadn't been riding for others. Could be the same for Vingegaard, He's only been at JV for a few years after getting picked up from a small team. First year getting used to being properly pro, one riding for others, next second in the tour, third wins it.... Also, I think he's had injuries in some smaller races.

He might well be doping btw. I just don't put too much weight on where he's come from to get here.

 

[Ripper]

what makes one the heavier doper ? improvement from baseline; is Pogacar a much better rider at baseline; hell yes.
If everybody( guys like Froome or Fisherman) can become a winner that is not a sport anymore , its a doping competition.

I think pogo and vingo are both supercharged (and G as well). However, none of us know what pogo or vingo's "baseline" (if that is your term for undoped capacities) currently is. It sounds like you are just a fan of pogo and are a bit upset about him being beaten, possibly at his own game. There is nothing wrong with that of course. But to claim it is because vingo did more doping is pure assumption, especially given the nuclear capacities the entire podium has demonstrated. I cannot remember - were you complaining about doping in sport as much when pogo won the last two years? You are certainly reactive to claims that pogo could be doping (but not his results), and you are 100% reactive to vingo.

 

[Cookster15]

I think pogo and vingo are both supercharged (and G as well). However, none of us know what pogo or vingo's "baseline" (if that is your term for undoped capacities) currently is. It sounds like you are just a fan of pogo and are a bit upset about him being beaten, possibly at his own game. There is nothing wrong with that of course. But to claim it is because vingo did more doping is pure assumption, especially given the nuclear capacities the entire podium has demonstrated. I cannot remember - were you complaining about doping in sport as much when pogo won the last two years? You are certainly reactive to claims that pogo could be doping (but not his results), and you are 100% reactive to vingo.

I agree with you about the podium. But I think Armstrong showed us that some respond better than others. Vingo is like Armstrong in that regard. No we don't know Pogo's baseline but his record suggests genuine talent doping or not. I don't see that in Vingo - 22nd out 57 in the 2019 Dutch TT titles? Pog was always good. If Vingo was getting the same outrage here as Froome it would be fair. But he isn't. The problem for me is the obvious arms race.

 

[Netserk]

I don't see that in Vingo - 22nd out 57 in the 2019 Dutch TT titles? Pog was always good. If Vingo was getting the same outrage here as Froome it would be fair. But he isn't.

Pick better examples and riders to compare him with. You can be justifiably outraged without the need to stoop so low.

 

[Cookster15]

Pick better examples and riders to compare him with. You can be justifiably outraged without the need to stoop so low.

How did I stoop low? Didn't you start this thread - "alpha mutant"? That TT result is a fact and I am merely restating the recent article in CN.

You are free to tell me why Vingo isn't like Froome. I remain unconvinced he isn't simply the result of an arms race and the looks on Dumo and WvA's faces after that 2020 TdF TT. Most fans might be happy with entertainment. I like it to be fair.

 

[Ripper]

I agree with you about the podium. But I think Armstrong showed us that some respond better than others. Vingo is like Armstrong in that regard. No we don't know Pogo's baseline but his record suggests genuine talent doping or not. I don't see that in Vingo - 22nd out 57 in the 2019 Dutch TT titles? Pog was always good. If Vingo was getting the same outrage here as Froome it would be fair. But he isn't. The problem for me is the obvious arms race.

Pharmstrong was not just about being a better responder. He and his team set up a sophisticated system with the foremost expert in the world on the matter, demonstrating that I will set up system can indeed reap rewards and it's not just about more dope. But my response was to a poster who seems to only be upset with one rider and who seems to be sensitive about (and perhaps wants to give a pass to) a rider he is a fan of, which just seems silly.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if vingo was taking 10 times more dope than anybody else, or whether he just started topping up and has that much latent talent and response while others are charging 10 times more. I certainly would not be defending any of the podium. L

 

[roundabout]

So Van Aert in theory can do about 450W for the duration of the Tour ITT.

Probably not after 3 weeks in the Tour, but even at 400 something watts for Van Aert, Vingegaard was probably doing something around 6 W/kg in the TT position to compete for the win up til the last few km.