Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[FroomeWagon]

Well sure, but why turn the drugs for basic weight management when nutrition intake can address that piece? There is really no point in taking risks if you don't need to

That is kind of easier said that done though, correct? I mean Lance (and the rest of the peloton) back in the day understood that eating too much food results in weight gain, yet many of them struggled with it. So why can they do it now, but not back then? Just a lot more mentally tougher? It's not as if dietitians and nutritionists haven't been around for a LONG time.

In some ways, it's kind of like telling an alcoholic to "just stop drinking." There is a reason you hear about so many eating disorders like anorexia or bulimia , But now it doesn't seem to be a problem for the peloton? even ones that are unable to train?

 

[Nick2413]

That's why previously GT riders always gained weight throughout GT's. Now days it seems the monsters are at race weight year-round and sometimes even lose weight during grand tours, looking at you 2022 Wout Van Aert

Agreed on all other points but I think losing weight during a GT is still expected, just not maintaining constantly for extended parts of the year. Anybody who has ever been exceptionally lean for a while can feel for themselves how unsustainable that is year-round, especially without compromising performance, it’s just silly to think guys can be that emaciated and still full throttle all year. Of course they’re physical freaks but they still can’t outrun basic biology.

 

[awavey]

That is kind of easier said that done though, correct? I mean Lance (and the rest of the peloton) back in the day understood that eating too much food results in weight gain, yet many of them struggled with it. So why can they do it now, but not back then? Just a lot more mentally tougher? It's not as if dietitians and nutritionists haven't been around for a LONG time.

In some ways, it's kind of like telling an alcoholic to "just stop drinking." There is a reason you hear about so many eating disorders like anorexia or bulimia , But now it doesn't seem to be a problem for the peloton? even ones that are unable to train?

its still a problem in the womens peloton for sure, especially among the younger riders with all the body image issues of growing up in a sport that pushes you to the edge and beyond, Mara Abbott is probably one of the few at the elite level who has spoken openly about, and it wasnt that long ago you'd hear stories of DS's telling riders they were slow because they were fat, or the Shecret pro wrote of team training camps where riders could only eat salad for weeks to lose weight, of course if there was a wonder drug that wasnt banned theyd use it, and most of those across all sports that get popped for diuretics are trying to lose weight quickly.

but I remember Wiggo talks about it too in his Audience with tour, as he suffered from eating disorders during his career,as a result of having to be a certain weight, but he also talks how Sky specifically had these brutal day long training rides they had to do, without eating anything, just to get to a race weight, they were literally weight loss rides and he hated doing them.

 

[Oldermanish]

That is kind of easier said that done though, correct? I mean Lance (and the rest of the peloton) back in the day understood that eating too much food results in weight gain, yet many of them struggled with it. So why can they do it now, but not back then? Just a lot more mentally tougher? It's not as if dietitians and nutritionists haven't been around for a LONG time.

In some ways, it's kind of like telling an alcoholic to "just stop drinking." There is a reason you hear about so many eating disorders like anorexia or bulimia , But now it doesn't seem to be a problem for the peloton? even ones that are unable to train?

Guys weighed their food back then and some were disciplined enough to eat what they should and had the resources to get it. It would be interesting to get pros from that era to actually rate the quality and availability of appropriate food during a GT. Since every rider has slightly different needs that can't be a simple task for a travelling roadshow. Certainly the protected GC candidates would get what they needed and, in spite of nutritionists being available; how many team members actually had access? Take this year's Visma poster child for quality diet: Matteo Jorgenson. He is very happy with the resources available to him and likely loving that he doesn't spend much of his old Movistar salary amount actually getting fed properly. There are probably a few riders that free-lance away from the team regimen just to maintain a good racing diet and weight.

Now there's very little excuse to not have supplements along with good food to get through an event. What racers eat during a stage seems to have gotten more condensed to specific gels and liquid reinforcements rather than old school solid stuff. That can be more regulated than trying to mix in solid products requiring too much digestion and related fluid and risk a bonking occurrence. That may be an answer why many riders can maintain a stable weight range: they actually now know what they're doing.

 

[SHAD0W93]

What are the offs of Vinge getting in shape to compete at the Tour only to have a positive and they spin it that it’s due to the accident so they can try and get sympathy.

 

[Cookster15]

What are the offs of Vinge getting in shape to compete at the Tour only to have a positive and they spin it that it’s due to the accident so they can try and get sympathy.

Based upon everything I’ve read about his injuries and recovery to date (not Visma) I can’t see Vingo being anywhere near full strength for the TdF. But I think the point you hypothesise can be discussed in the other place .

 

[Rackham]

Based upon everything I’ve read about his injuries and recovery to date (not Visma) I can’t see Vingo being anywhere near full strength for the TdF. But I think the point you hypothesise can be discussed in the other place .

This is the "other place", is it not?

To be honest (& as a reply to SHADOW's post) I reckon these teams conduct internal tests all the time. It means whenever someone is glowing or close enough, they get pulled from races (either during or before). Not to sound too tinfoil hat-esque here (after all, what the hell do I know?) I reckon a few DNF's & DNS's over the years (in whichever teams) for vague reasons might actually be clinic related.

Tyler Hamilton's book has a part in which he totally lacks self-awareness & gets all angsty because Postal pulled him from a race (& 'the program') when he was glowing a little bit too much (I seem to remember his hematocrit was at nearly 50%). He acted like the team's decision was an injustice as well.

 

[Cookster15]

This is the "other place", is it not?

To be honest (& as a reply to SHADOW's post) I reckon these teams conduct internal tests all the time. It means whenever someone is glowing or close enough, they get pulled from races (either during or before). Not to sound too tinfoil hat-esque here (after all, what the hell do I know?) I reckon a few DNF's & DNS's over the years (in whichever teams) for vague reasons might actually be clinic related.

Tyler Hamilton's book has a part in which he totally lacks self-awareness & gets all angsty because Postal pulled him from a race (& 'the program') when he was glowing a little bit too much (I seem to remember his hematocrit was at nearly 50%). He acted like the team's decision was an injustice as well.

Thanks. Apologies to @SHAD0W93.

 

[Rackham]

Thanks. Apologies to @SHAD0W93.

It's better to be safe than sorry though, right? i.e. I've had to double-check where I was posting something clinic related before.

Especially with a 'star' like Vingegaard who has some diehard fans in the main forums.

 

[Cookster15]

It's better to be safe than sorry though, right? i.e. I've had to double-check where I was posting something clinic related before.

Especially with a 'star' like Vingegaard who has some diehard fans in the main forums.

Yes . Was posting from my phone during my working day and in my haste obviously lost track where I was !

 

[Samu Cuenca]

What are the offs of Vinge getting in shape to compete at the Tour only to have a positive and they spin it that it’s due to the accident so they can try and get sympathy.

I think it's more likely that they'd claim he absorbed his twin whilst in the womb. That would also explain why he's got more love inside of him than other people.

 

[topcat]

The other place sounds a bit seedy so we need to spice it up a bit. The conversation varies between the blindingly obvious "they're all jacked up" and some debatable chemtrail theories. None of this is seedy enough for my liking. I got reported for posting that the 2018 giro trphy presentation had to be delayed because the sky staff were busy violently masturbating. Thankfully, reason prevailed and no ban was issued.

 

[Tim Cahill]

The other place sounds a bit seedy so we need to spice it up a bit. The conversation varies between the blindingly obvious "they're all jacked up" and some debatable chemtrail theories. None of this is seedy enough for my liking. I got reported for posting that the 2018 giro trphy presentation had to be delayed because the sky staff were busy violently masturbating. Thankfully, reason prevailed and no ban was issued.

They say truth is the ultimate defence.

 

[pastronef]

The other place sounds a bit seedy so we need to spice it up a bit. The conversation varies between the blindingly obvious "they're all jacked up" and some debatable chemtrail theories. None of this is seedy enough for my liking. I got reported for posting that the 2018 giro trphy presentation had to be delayed because the sky staff were busy violently masturbating. Thankfully, reason prevailed and no ban was issued.

well the way they planned and lead Froome's big ride up and down Finestre (they scouted Finestre's downhill a few times, Portal did lead Froome on the radio in every curve as a rally driver, they posted the road notes of all the bends and curves) for me they are allowed to circle masturbate behind the podium eheh

 

[proffate]

That is kind of easier said that done though, correct? I mean Lance (and the rest of the peloton) back in the day understood that eating too much food results in weight gain, yet many of them struggled with it. So why can they do it now, but not back then?

The anecdote I remember from Tyler Hamilton's book is that they would ride hard for 6 hours, then come home and have some sublingual testosterone and sleeping pills and sleep off their hunger. That's one way to not eat too much food but even with the bonus T in your system it may not be the optimal diet for long term performance or weight loss/maintenance. Presumably dieticians tell you something more sophisticated than "burn all the calories and don't eat lol", instead they tell you exactly how much you need to eat to get by (and when), then you eat that much and not a morsel more. Also they look over your shoulder to keep you accountable. A smart nutrition plan would theoretically allow you to toe the line of mortality without trashing yourself too badly, as compared to the Lance era anorexia approach.

I for one believe that riders are super strict with their diet these days, as I think that would be hard to fake on such a large scale. And if that's not having any effect, then why don't we see any of the top guys following the Chris Horner school of thought?

 

[Ripper]

The anecdote I remember from Tyler Hamilton's book is that they would ride hard for 6 hours, then come home and have some sublingual testosterone and sleeping pills and sleep off their hunger. That's one way to not eat too much food but even with the bonus T in your system it may not be the optimal diet for long term performance or weight loss/maintenance. Presumably dieticians tell you something more sophisticated than "burn all the calories and don't eat lol", instead they tell you exactly how much you need to eat to get by (and when), then you eat that much and not a morsel more. Also they look over your shoulder to keep you accountable. A smart nutrition plan would theoretically allow you to toe the line of mortality without trashing yourself too badly, as compared to the Lance era anorexia approach.

I for one believe that riders are super strict with their diet these days, as I think that would be hard to fake on such a large scale. And if that's not having any effect, then why don't we see any of the top guys following the Chris Horner school of thought?

This.

I mean, yes, there is still many drugs and supplements that one can take. But nutritional science has improved by a ridiculous amount, and that also contributes to what we are seeing and to maintaining weight. There definitely never used to be smart apps that help you calculate what tweet nearly to the calorie.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Vingegaard now doing climbing on Mallorca: https://www.bt.dk/cykling/spottet-paa-traeningstur-vingegaard-paa-mallorca

 

[Rackham]

I'll be honest here & say I'm starting to get some heebie-jeebies about Vingegaard with regards to his prospective Tour de France form in the event he takes part. I think some of us might have forgotten that ITT in last year's Tour a bit too quickly. It was so absurd, it defied all metrics & on paper was pretty much the craziest individual performance since the 1960's in terms of seconds gained per km. To quote Han Solo, "I have a bad feeling about this"

i.e. if this guy shows up after what happened to him & blows the field apart, it's going to sicken me of the sport entirely. There's a 'line' in my mind & it'll be crossed if Vingegaard just brushes off his hospital stay & collapsed lung like it's nothing.

I get the fanboys & media will scream all the hyperbole imaginable about how extraordinary he is, but come on, there's a point in which humanely possible does still matter & cannot be ignored.

This is basically my pre-emptive 'concern' a month before the TdF. I'll take it back if he either A/doesn't take part or B/at least looks more human (that ranges from getting totally dropped on the lower end all the way to something like having his Paris-Nice 2022 form or his week one of last year's Vuelta form, i.e. a more credible performance based on the injuries he sustained).

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I'll be honest here & say I'm starting to get some heebie-jeebies about Vingegaard with regards to his prospective Tour de France form in the event he takes part. I think some of us might have forgotten that ITT in last year's Tour a bit too quickly. It was so absurd, it defied all metrics & on paper was pretty much the craziest individual performance since the 1960's in terms of seconds gained per km. To quote Han Solo, "I have a bad feeling about this"

i.e. if this guy shows up after what happened to him & blows the field apart, it's going to sicken me of the sport entirely. There's a 'line' in my mind & it'll be crossed if Vingegaard just brushes off his hospital stay & collapsed lung like it's nothing.

I get the fanboys & media will scream all the hyperbole imaginable about how extraordinary he is, but come on, there's a point in which humanely possible does still matter & cannot be ignored.

This is basically my pre-emptive 'concern' a month before the TdF. I'll take it back if he either A/doesn't take part or B/at least looks more human (that ranges from getting totally dropped on the lower end all the way to something like having his Paris-Nice 2022 form or his week one of last year's Vuelta form, i.e. a more credible performance based on the injuries he sustained).

At the moment, I don't think there's much suggesting that it'll happen, and if it does, then his injuries were probably less severe than reported. But if he's using mechanical doping, then it obviously doesn't matter if he isn't at his very best physically, although I assume there's still an upper limit to how much time you can gain through it.

Also in case Vingegaard was doing something that others weren't doing last year, or at least doing to a lesser degree, which seems quite likely, then perhaps that advantage will be gone a year later, either because it's no longer possible, he's doesn't want to take the same risks again, or because the competition has caught up with him.

 

[Rackham]

At the moment, I don't think there's much suggesting that it'll happen, and if it does, then his injuries were probably less severe than reported. But if he's using mechanical doping, then it obviously doesn't matter if he isn't at his very best physically, although I assume there's still an upper limit to how much time you can gain through it.

Also in case Vingegaard was doing something that others weren't doing last year, or at least doing to a lesser degree, which seems quite likely, then perhaps that advantage will be gone a year later, either because it's no longer possible, he's doesn't want to take the same risks again, or because the competition has caught up with him.

I'm basing most of my aforementioned concern on this wielerflits article: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/t...dej-pogacar-zeker-mee-naar-de-tour-de-france/

(translated automatically)

Although fresh opponents are also waiting for him at Le Grand Départ. Remco Evenepoel, Primoz Roglic and Carlos Rodriguez will be of a higher level than his opponents in the Giro. And don't forget Jonas Vingegaard. The sounds that WielerFlits hears indicate that he will soon be almost one hundred percent fit for the Tour in Florence. So this Giro d'Italia was an indicator for the upcoming Tour de France: barely.

I mean he literally can't be one hundred percent 'fit' to start the Tour in the way it's implied here (which is to say 100% fit = fighting for yellow & winning it). There has to be something, somewhere, in his performance which reflects his lost weeks of preparation, injuries & no altitude camp in May. Like Pog last year with his third week crack reflected his own injury.

If Visma shows up with a finger in their nose & unleashes Granon-Hautacam-Combloux Vingegaard like nothing happened, then I won't know what to say anymore. It would trivialise everything known to man in terms of physical preparation for the Tour de France.

 

[Froome]

I'm basing most of my aforementioned concern on this wielerflits article: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/t...dej-pogacar-zeker-mee-naar-de-tour-de-france/

(translated automatically)



I mean he literally can't be one hundred percent 'fit' to start the Tour in the way it's implied here (which is to say 100% fit = fighting for yellow & winning it). There has to be something, somewhere, in his performance which reflects his lost weeks of preparation, injuries & no altitude camp in May. Like Pog last year with his third week crack reflected his own injury.

If Visma shows up with a finger in their nose & unleashes Granon-Hautacam-Combloux Vingegaard like nothing happened, then I won't know what to say anymore. It would trivialise everything known to man in terms of physical preparation for the Tour de France.

You should believe "miracles" happen in cycling.

For some good reason he was just one week in Mallorca.......plus Plugge saying he could be at Dauphine, now that article by wielerflits.nl.....better you all prepare for what's coming.

That's part of the sport, and all of them are in the "mix", especially the top riders and the teams with more budget.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I'm basing most of my aforementioned concern on this wielerflits article: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/t...dej-pogacar-zeker-mee-naar-de-tour-de-france/

(translated automatically)



I mean he literally can't be one hundred percent 'fit' to start the Tour in the way it's implied here (which is to say 100% fit = fighting for yellow & winning it). There has to be something, somewhere, in his performance which reflects his lost weeks of preparation, injuries & no altitude camp in May. Like Pog last year with his third week crack reflected his own injury.

If Visma shows up with a finger in their nose & unleashes Granon-Hautacam-Combloux Vingegaard like nothing happened, then I won't know what to say anymore. It would trivialise everything known to man in terms of physical preparation for the Tour de France.

As long as we're only dealing with rumours, I won't pay too much attention to it. If he is doing the race, then making Pogačar believe he's as strong possible could also make sense. Pogačar will of course attack him anyway, but he might hesitate a little if Vingegaard can follow him the first few times.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

If nobody apart from a few clinic scholars and philosophers cared about the stage 16 time trial last year, then it will be similar if jonas Vingegard wins this year Le tour after spending April on hospital.

We can only count on the Pogacar fanboys to join us in our scholarly speculation if jonas wins again. But that is embarrassing, because they would want to pretend their gianetti prgidy is not suspicious and squeaky clean like a swiss watch

 

[Netserk]

I'm basing most of my aforementioned concern on this wielerflits article: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/t...dej-pogacar-zeker-mee-naar-de-tour-de-france/

(translated automatically)



I mean he literally can't be one hundred percent 'fit' to start the Tour in the way it's implied here (which is to say 100% fit = fighting for yellow & winning it). There has to be something, somewhere, in his performance which reflects his lost weeks of preparation, injuries & no altitude camp in May. Like Pog last year with his third week crack reflected his own injury.

If Visma shows up with a finger in their nose & unleashes Granon-Hautacam-Combloux Vingegaard like nothing happened, then I won't know what to say anymore. It would trivialise everything known to man in terms of physical preparation for the Tour de France.

100 % could simply mean fully recovered from his injuries, race ready and without pain. It doesn't have to mean that he's in the form of his life, at least as good as he was at the start of last year's Tour.

 

[AmRacer]

If nobody apart from a few clinic scholars and philosophers cared about the stage 16 time trial last year, then it will be similar if jonas Vingegard wins this year Le tour after spending April on hospital.

We can only count on the Pogacar fanboys to join us in our scholarly speculation if jonas wins again. But that is embarrassing, because they would want to pretend their gianetti prgidy is not suspicious and squeaky clean like a swiss watch

Rogal and Remco fanboys would also like to have a say.