Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Fergoose]

More seriously, Vingegaard spent 2016-2018 on Team Coloquick. He was winning stages and prologues in minor races, but it's an amazing transformation. Would he have been fully pro at Coloquick on the UCI Continental circuit or semi-pro? Would he have been racing MTFs?

If he was fully pro and riding MTFs then the improvement doesn't look great. If he was semi pro and sticking to shorter multi day races without MTFs then there would be scope for him to improve.

Apparently TJV asked him to come for tests after he'd posted climbing data on Strava?

 

[CJCycling]

Apparently TJV asked him to come for tests after he'd posted climbing data on Strava?

That's interesting. When was this?

 

[noob]

That's interesting. When was this?

I think Jonas history was described by a Dane a couple of days ago or so? I think it's in the Pog thread. Lemme check or call on the Danes

 

[greyclouds]

Welcome to the (sometimes not so select) thermonuclear club, Jonas

 

[noob]

Is looking at the mere physics of a rider out nowadays? I mean literally their build.

 

[ciranda]

More seriously, Vingegaard spent 2016-2018 on Team Coloquick. He was winning stages and prologues in minor races, but it's an amazing transformation. Would he have been fully pro at Coloquick on the UCI Continental circuit or semi-pro? Would he have been racing MTFs?

If he was fully pro and riding MTFs then the improvement doesn't look great. If he was semi pro and sticking to shorter multi day races without MTFs then there would be scope for him to improve.

Apparently TJV asked him to come for tests after he'd posted climbing data on Strava?

I mean yeah, try with common sense maybe? Maybe research too. He raced exactly three races as an under with real mountains, all in his last year: Pressnietz Spa nations cup (5th overall behind Pogacar, Hirschi, Battistella, Errazkin), Valle d'Aosta (1st in the mtt, crashed out on the second day), Avenir (no result, suffered from the concussion from the crash in Aosta). His other races were in northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Oh and the first race he did with real mountain stages as a professional was the Vuelta 2020.

The no results before last year claims some make are disingenuous and or trolling and or ignorant. For sure Jumbo is the most suspicious team around, no one believes anyone there comes unprepared etc etc, this should not even be necessary to say. But one minute ahead of Quintana and Bardet with numbers similar to Col du Portet last year is not out of this world.

Considering Vingegaard's team, I think that performance should scare the bejeezus out of everyone. I didn't expect him to be that strong, i.e. a stratospheric level.

Don't you think Roglic without the crash and the injury could have followed/done the same? Or a not exhausted normal level Pogacar?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

True and looking at Vinge's appearance of starving labour camper he may reach infinite w per kg soon. Fatacar has no chance. JV may have found a way to produce power by massless objects!

Well...

 

[Netserk]

More seriously, Vingegaard spent 2016-2018 on Team Coloquick. He was winning stages and prologues in minor races, but it's an amazing transformation. Would he have been fully pro at Coloquick on the UCI Continental circuit or semi-pro? Would he have been racing MTFs?

If he was fully pro and riding MTFs then the improvement doesn't look great. If he was semi pro and sticking to shorter multi day races without MTFs then there would be scope for him to improve.

Apparently TJV asked him to come for tests after he'd posted climbing data on Strava?

He was an amateur before he signed with Coloquick, 25 May 2016. FirstCycling has an extensive list of results (https://firstcycling.com/rider.php?r=38195). Most notable early result is the Sibiu Tour MTT where he beat Bernal (who is 1 month younger than Vingegaard) for 9th. No, he did not set the world on fire as an U-23 rider like Bernal did, but not many do. From what I've read, he has always been a clumsy rider and prone to crashes.

 

[Finns]

More seriously, Vingegaard spent 2016-2018 on Team Coloquick. He was winning stages and prologues in minor races, but it's an amazing transformation. Would he have been fully pro at Coloquick on the UCI Continental circuit or semi-pro? Would he have been racing MTFs?

If he was fully pro and riding MTFs then the improvement doesn't look great. If he was semi pro and sticking to shorter multi day races without MTFs then there would be scope for him to improve.

Apparently TJV asked him to come for tests after he'd posted climbing data on Strava?

After the race today Christian Mobergs from Coloquick was in the studio on danish tv2, where he told the story about Vingegaard setting the climb record on a mountain in Spain where all the pro-teams go for preparations. That was 4 years ago, and he mentioned that this was the point where he understood the potential talent in Vingegaard.

 

[BR2]

Do we need to look at transformation so closely? In my opinion the fact that there was a bunch of Jumbos including van Aert again still much in the game when all other teams we're depleted is what annoys me. It's also why I don't know what to say about Vingegaard. Yes, no doubt he's super charged. But all I can see when I see him is not Jonas Vingegaard, but just some Jumbo, maybe the best responder, maybe the most charged... As much as I'm disgusted, problem is the whole team to me.
Hard to find anything in this race that looks legit anymore. I root for Bardet, because I just like the guy no matter if he's on something; everything else... urgh.

 

[greyclouds]

Do we need to look at transformation so closely? In my opinion the fact that there was a bunch of Jumbos including van Aert again still much in the game when all other teams we're depleted is what annoys me. It's also why I don't know what to say about Vingegaard. Yes, no doubt he's super charged. But all I can see when I see him is not Jonas Vingegaard, but just some Jumbo, maybe the best responder, maybe the most charged... As much as I'm disgusted, problem is the whole team to me.
Hard to find anything in this race that looks legit anymore. I root for Bardet, because I just like the guy no matter if he's on something; everything else... urgh.

WvA is the one that upsets me the most. I mean, yes he did have a break in the spring due to covid, but it’s been 11 stages this Tour and he has been flying in pretty much all of them. Including today another long break, with lots of pulling, and then later on pulling the main GC group with Bardet, Roglic, etc. He might not have the genes to achieve nuclear performances in the high mountains (at least with a GC regularity), but how much is too much? I love his style and craziness, but don’t believe for a second that he isn’t having a big boys breakfast.

 

[noob]

I keep thinking about how my commentators talks about racing and how some cyclists from some countries that isn't a cycling nation talks; they are not used to the peleton in the big European races. So they won't do good results. They're not used to that many riders on the road, to fight for position etc. They're scared, prone to crashing etc. So they go in the break simply to not have to ride in the peleton.

This imo is enough to take a year or two out of a rider that's a good climber but had never been to the really big races before. Positioning, daring, bike handling, all those things.

Exactly the things that makes people think he is suspicious is the things that makes him less suspicious in my eyes.

Just as I did when I saw Pog on the cobbles my first thought wasn't doping. It was bike handling and ability to manipulate people to help him. That's Pog skill. Do you remember how he dragged Jonas with him last year everywhere? And how Jonas doted on him?

I am not saying he's clean. I am merely saying that other circumstances matters as well.

(If Jonas has been in the large peloton for a long time everything I just said is bull, and it might absolutely be)

 

[noob]

I think I'm going to write a loooong Rasmussen post one of these days, as honestly his case and he as a person does fascinate me still. I am not a fan but he's intriguing.

I am jaded about sports to the point that I don't care wholeheartedly if they cheat. I expect it. But what I do care about is if a rider does the stuff Rasmussen did with fooling that younger guy to bring his "stuff" telling him it was shoes. That's far worse in my book. How Lance treated people around him, Sagan groping a woman in public etc, that's far worse offences to me than the doping in itself.

When I look at riders I look for signs of the dark triad, how pumped they are, how they treat teammates when not filmed by their own teams, if the seem to be able to manipulate others etc. I look for narcissistic behaviours, manipulation, entitlement, arrogance, sadism etc etc and I look for other diagnoses just as I do in real life. I bite my tongue everyday on this forum to not say too much about the latter. (I am unlikely to like a rider without any signs of neurodiversity or weirdness and thankfully cycling is filled with weird people)

 

[proffate]

This wasn’t a handful of seconds it was a demolition on the hardest climb used in the Tour for years.

Would you not expect bigger differences on harder climbs, especially those at high altitude after a very long/hard day of racing? What does this have to do with doping? Differences were greater in ye olden days pre EPO, not smaller.

The only thing surprising today was that Pog cracked so bad. Vingo putting a minute into Quintana does not surprise me.

I have to say Vingo put up pretty amazing numbers as per @ammattipyoraily given the altitude.

 

[Cookster15]

Would you not expect bigger differences on harder climbs, especially those at high altitude after a very long/hard day of racing? What does this have to do with doping? Differences were greater in ye olden days pre EPO, not smaller.

The only thing surprising today was that Pog cracked so bad. Vingo putting a minute into Quintana does not surprise me.

I have to say Vingo put up pretty amazing numbers as per @ammattipyoraily given the altitude.

I think Pog was guilty of overconfidence and poor tactics which left him empty on the final kms. Hopefully he learns from his mistakes, recovers well tonight and can hit back. Contador was able to recover after bad days so we will see if Pogi is made of the same stuff (not a doping insinuation). But Vingo’s watts/kg at altitude seems suspect and no I would not expect bigger differences than stage 11. Those were huge gaps really. And of course this is disregarding his very ordinary record prior to 2021.

 

[Savant12]

Is thermobiblical > thermonuclear? Or can a rider like Vingo even reach thermoapocalytical levels?

 

[SafeBet]

Est. 6,34 w/kg (and 1816 VAM) in the final 5 km of Granon yesterday.
A brutal climb at altitude, after one of the hardest day in the saddle I can remember. After the whole Galibier at full gas.

You don't even need to look at what Jonas Vingegaard was before joining Jumbo. It's irrelevant. The numbers speak for themselves. And no, I don't think anyone would have beaten him yesterday. Not even fully fit Rog-Pog.

Quintana and Bardet had a headstart and still lost a minute plus in 5 km. And we're talking about great performances by both of them.

 

[Rackham]

Don't you think Roglic without the crash and the injury could have followed/done the same? Or a not exhausted normal level Pogacar?

There's two prerequisites for Roglic to follow Vingegaard's attack: he has perfect health & he's on a different team.

It's just not possible for riders from the same team to essentially fight each other in GC for the TdF, certainly not at Jumbo where there's already WvA as well. Yesterday there was a reason the old timers like Bardet, Quintana & Thomas rode well, i.e. their experience did the talking. When others were firing bullets all over the road, they read the race & themselves.

On a different team & with perfect condition, Roglic would have tagged along behind all the action, just holding onto the wheels of the Vingegaard/Pogacar duo without sticking his nose in the wind. I think peak Roglic holds Vingegaard, perhaps only dropping off at the end if he's on a bad day. Considering the time the others put in, I'd say maximum loss of 10, 20 seconds in the fiinal km, like on the Angliru in 2020. Nothing which couldn't be fixed later with bonus seconds & the ITT.

Roglic rides a GC in a metronomic fashion. He guards his energy & fires his bullets at the most opportune, carefully considered moments. So I knew this TdF was going to hell for him even before the cobbles (Calais for example when Jumbo drilled a 4th cat climb & put Roglic himself out of position in doing so). That sort of racing is the antithesis of what Roglic is as a rider.

Put Roglic on team DSM in this TdF & he's sitting where Bardet sits this morning, probably a little closer to yellow with way more prospects going forward.

 

[Luthor]

Jumbo is the best team for the watts, so Rogla will stay and will also be a co-captain next year.

True. Roglic knows his best chance to win is still at Jumbo and in order to beat Pogacar both Roglic and Jumbo know they need a 1-2. It took an insane amount of attacks, heat and high altitude to break Pogacar, for the first time in 3 years. Roglic has contract until 2025. If Roglic can go back to his Vuelta 2021 form, he can even beat Vingegaard, depending also on the route. TJV doesn't have any other guys who can win TdF except Rog and Vinge, they need him. Roglic will always have a good TT and be a threat if he stays out of trouble.

 

[Red Rick]

Est. 6,34 w/kg (and 1816 VAM) in the final 5 km of Granon yesterday.
A brutal climb at altitude, after one of the hardest day in the saddle I can remember. After the whole Galibier at full gas.

You don't even need to look at what Jonas Vingegaard was before joining Jumbo. It's irrelevant. The numbers speak for themselves. And no, I don't think anyone would have beaten him yesterday. Not even fully fit Rog-Pog.

Quintana and Bardet had a headstart and still lost a minute plus in 5 km. And we're talking about great performances by both of them.

Vingegaard was the only one who didn't do an all out Galibier.

It's basically the exact same effect as Carpegna this year, where they did the first Carpegna at like 6.1W/kg and everyone was near the limit and then nobody but Pogacar could go faster up the 2nd one and he did like a full 0.5W/kg more than the rest on Carpegna.

 

[proffate]

TJV doesn't have any other guys who can win TdF except Rog and Vinge, they need him.

now that they know where to look (the fish plant) I'm sure they'll be able to tap into a steady stream of future tour winners

 

[noob]

Looks like Rasmussen the original was actually present today

 

[SafeBet]

If Pog is fully recovered come the Pyrenees and he brings his A game there we'll fully understand how mutant this guy has gotten.

 

[noob]

Moving the discussion to Jonas thread. @SarahtheDane @ahsoe

Indeed. Some would say too much

I haven't found anything but her LinkedIn. Looks like she's always worked for his career even on colo-Quick? Maybe what cyclist wives does, what do I know.

What about her personality?

 

[ahsoe]

Moving the discussion to Jonas thread. @SarahtheDane @ahsoe



I haven't found anything but her LinkedIn. Looks like she's always worked for his career even on colo-Quick? Maybe what cyclist wives does, what do I know.

What about her personality?

This is the mother of his girlfriend who is discussing participating in the danish version of Bake-off.
I am sure, you can find better clips of her.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcTIetz7CE


But the truth is, you cannot help but like her. She is always positive and smiling and brings a lot of joy. It is contageous in the good sense