Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Krzysztof_O]

86 days before the Tour: Crash, broken ribs and punctured lung, hospitalisation in ICU.
74 days before the Tour: Leaves hospital.
61 days before the Tour: First day on a home-trainer.
53 days before the Tour: First day training outside in Denmark.

Status now, 45 days before the Tour: Lungs are perhaps still not fully recovered, still in pain, limited training volume. Not yet ready for altitude camps.

From another article posted recently in this thread: his coach is worried about reduced oxygen uptake and muscles strength. The Tour participation seems only a PR stunt at the moment.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I just hope they don't try something stupid and let him recover in peace.
But the way his recovery seems to go, I highly doubt he'll show up at the tour.

 

[Netserk]

From another article posted recently in this thread: his coach is worried about reduced oxygen uptake and muscles strength. The Tour participation seems only a PR stunt at the moment.

~"No worse injuries than when Pogi broke his wrist last year and could train two days after."

 

[Rackham]

I think some of his fans might have gotten a little too carried away last week & assumed Vingegaard riding a bike = Vingegaard riding the TdF.

It's also a side effect of the otherworldly performances Vingegaard is associated with, i.e. people expect way, way too much - especially miracles.

 

[Mlarsen]

~"No worse injuries than when Pogi broke his wrist last year and could train two days after."

Shut up...........you are stup . . !

 

[Netserk]

Shut up...........you are stup . . !

I tried to indicate that my post was a sarcastic paraphrase. I do not really believe that the two injuries are similar.

 

[Cookster15]

Yes, Vingegaard's injuries were way more serious than Pogacar suffered and the clock is ticking. For a grand tour contender these injuries would make it borderline impossible to be ready for the TdF - as @Krzysztof_O posted. Reading the above, I'd be surprised if he starts the TdF, even the Vuelta must be in doubt now.

Recovering from day to day stage racing efforts has absolutely zero equivalence to the human body recovering from the physical trauma that Vingegaard suffered. They are completely different things. Plus, no two injuries are the same.

Obviously Visma are doing PR. If I was a fan my position would be assume Vingegaard is out of the TdF and if he can make it its a bonus.

 

[proffate]

Recovering from day to day stage racing efforts has absolutely zero equivalence to the human body recovering from the physical trauma that Vingegaard suffered. They are completely different things.

Are those types of recovery really different? What scientific basis is there for this statement?

I reckon that anyone with high levels of anabolic hormones, such as an average 18 year old male, say, will recover from either traumatic injury or excessive exercise faster than someone with lower levels, such as an average 80 yo man.

 

[Cookster15]

Are those types of recovery really different? What scientific basis is there for this statement?

I reckon that anyone with high levels of anabolic hormones, such as an average 18 year old male, say, will recover from either traumatic injury or excessive exercise faster than someone with lower levels, such as an average 80 yo man.

It should not require explaining. If you can find a link to any reputable medical opinion (not Visma PR) that suggests otherwise feel free to share.

 

[proffate]

It should not require explaining. If you can find a link to any reputable medical opinion (not Visma PR) that suggests otherwise feel free to share.

If you can't explain it you don't understand it

 

[Cookster15]

If you can't explain it you don't understand it

You posted an irrelevant comparison between recovery rates of old and young then suggest I don't understand? The onus is on your position not mine.

 

[Salvarani]

He still got time. Toughen up kid and go to the Tour. No excuses. We need everyone there.

 

[Netserk]

If you can't explain it you don't understand it

Does a chimp understand what a banana is?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Does a chimp understand what a banana is?

I wouldn‘t compare anyone on here to a chimpanzee though.

 

[proffate]

Does a chimp understand what a banana is?

no

 

[proffate]

You posted an irrelevant comparison between recovery rates of old and young then suggest I don't understand? The onus is on your position not mine.

No, I posted about recovery rates between people with high levels of anabolic hormones in their body and people with low levels. Young and old are simply illustrative examples of different classes of people who often have different (naturally occurring) levels of HGH, Testosterone, etc. in their body. Higher levels of HGH help you bounce back from injury in the same way they help you bounce back from exercise. I feel like you don't read very carefully. When you get to the end of a text you didn't understand, try slowly reading it a second time.

 

[Sciatic]

No, I posted about recovery rates between people with high levels of anabolic hormones in their body and people with low levels. Young and old are simply illustrative examples of different classes of people who often have different (naturally occurring) levels of HGH, Testosterone, etc. in their body. Higher levels of HGH help you bounce back from injury in the same way they help you bounce back from exercise. I feel like you don't read very carefully. When you get to the end of a text you didn't understand, try slowly reading it a second time.

You make it sound like everyone should think your take is obviously right, and are somehow dense to not see it. You could be right in the comparison you’re making, but intuitively what you’re saying doesn’t sound very logical. Because the comparison is between the recovery of a healthy body from exertion & muscle damage after a hard effort, vs. the recovery of injured person from their injuries. Even if, as you argue, they are the same process—validating that would have to be a lot more sophisticated. For example, a key element of recovery from many injuries or illnesses is decreasing inflammation. Not only the inflammation (swelling) is at the site of the injuries but also the inflammatory elements (cykotines) carried in the bloodstream, usually measured by testing for C-Reactive protein levels and sedimentation rate. Perhaps those levels are similarly elevated after profound exertion like in a stage race. But I think you need to show evidence for that.

 

[proffate]

You make it sound like everyone should think your take is obviously right, and are somehow dense to not see it. You could be right in the comparison you’re making, but intuitively what you’re saying doesn’t sound very logical. Because the comparison is between the recovery of a healthy body from exertion & muscle damage after a hard effort, vs. the recovery of injured person from their injuries. Even if, as you argue, they are the same process—validating that would have to be a lot more sophisticated. For example, a key element of recovery from many injuries or illnesses is decreasing inflammation. Not only the inflammation (swelling) is at the site of the injuries but also the inflammatory elements (cykotines) carried in the bloodstream, usually measured by testing for C-Reactive protein levels and sedimentation rate. Perhaps those levels are similarly elevated after profound exertion like in a stage race. But I think you need to show evidence for that.

It took me less time to Google this than it did for you to write this comment: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806550/

I did kind of think it was common knowledge or common sense that exercise caused inflammation, also that exercise is a kind of controlled damage to the body from which the body must later recover. Inflammation is a sign that the body is doing repairs. Is this news to anyone?

I never said these are the exact same processes, but I pointed to one factor that is correlated with rate of repair from both kinds of damage. It's highly likely if you're good at one kind of recovery you will be good at the other.

 

[Sciatic]

Good article. But no I don’t think an understanding of inflammation is common knowledge—it certainly wasn’t to me until my autoimmune illness flared up.

 

[SHAD0W93]

It took me less time to Google this than it did for you to write this comment: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806550/

I did kind of think it was common knowledge or common sense that exercise caused inflammation, also that exercise is a kind of controlled damage to the body from which the body must later recover. Inflammation is a sign that the body is doing repairs. Is this news to anyone?

I never said these are the exact same processes, but I pointed to one factor that is correlated with rate of repair from both kinds of damage. It's highly likely if you're good at one kind of recovery you will be good at the other.

There’s a difference between recovering from the inflammation the sport caused that you’re used to and your body healing from a different sport or an injury. That’s why if you do weighted lunges all the time but stop and do weighted squats, when you go back to the lunges you struggle because your body isn’t used to it. Even if you’re in great shape. His body has to heal his bones, lung(s), and then get ready to take the training abuse of a professional cyclist. It has to do way more in order to get in shape. Vingegaard’s benefit is he’s a lot healthier person than others who get these injuries and has the best backing to heal.

 

[FanBoi]

Most promising news yet from Vingegaards coach:

"Every time the messages we've got are that he's improving so fast"​

"Every day we've been keeping in touch with each other and every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."​

"Hopefully, he'll be able to join a part of the preparation with all the other riders. We have a team going now to Sierra Nevada preparing and then that team will also go to the Criterium du Dauphine and then to Tignes."​

"Maybe it's just training all the way and there might be no race, but it will depend also on what the feedback from Jonas will be in the next two to three weeks. ​

Seems to be going well. It's interesting that Heemskerk doesn't rule out race days before the tour yet, and that he suggest he can be going to Tignes.

 

[Netserk]

"Every day we've been keeping in touch with each other and every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."

So no "normal" training yet.

I'm quite optimistic for him to get in decent shape for the Tour and certainly to be in winning shape in time for the Vuelta, but I'm very unsure of how strong he can get in the best case scenario for the Tour.

 

[Rackham]

Most promising news yet from Vingegaards coach:

"Every time the messages we've got are that he's improving so fast"​

"Every day we've been keeping in touch with each other and every day it's going in the direction of maybe doing some normal training again in just a matter of time."​

"Hopefully, he'll be able to join a part of the preparation with all the other riders. We have a team going now to Sierra Nevada preparing and then that team will also go to the Criterium du Dauphine and then to Tignes."​

"Maybe it's just training all the way and there might be no race, but it will depend also on what the feedback from Jonas will be in the next two to three weeks. ​

Seems to be going well. It's interesting that Heemskerk doesn't rule out race days before the tour yet, and that he suggest he can be going to Tignes.

I read that interview earlier today here: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racin...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

The part I find confusing (& makes me think these quotes are old now) is the part where he says there's 8 weeks to go until the Tour:

"Maybe it's just training all the way and there might be no race,” he said. “But it will depend also on what the feedback from Jonas will be in the next two to three weeks.

"So at the moment, my thoughts are just about tomorrow and this next little training block... I think in two weeks from now we will have a really, really better view of where we are at to enable us to predict a programme.

"At the moment, I'm just thinking about the fact that we just have eight weeks for training time."

There's not. There's just over 6 weeks now (44 days).

 

[Red Rick]

44 days and still not training normally.

Clearly improving so fast only emphasizes how bad it was before

 

[Peyroteo94]

I can see a similar scenario to Remco in 2021 Giro.