Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Blanco]

How will he be in a similar situation when Roglic is riding the Giro? Which I don't understand honestly, if I was JV I would've added Roglic to my roster.

Roglic wants to ride the Giro, and JV can't do *** about that!

 

[Bolder]

Unfortunately, as much as I like Roglic, he has not shown in the past three Tours that he deserves to be a protected leader over Vingegaard, That old saw, to finish first you have to first finish, applies here. The only possible use I could see for Roglic in the Tour this year is as a super dom with orders to stay out of trouble until you're needed for a key stage, much like Kuss.

 

[Netserk]

He took a bit of a blow today. He also can't be too pleased with his team. When Pogačar attacked at the bonus sprint, he shouldn't have been the one closing the gap. He boviosuly doesn't have the ebst climbing support here, but still he could have hoped that Tratnik or Foss would have hanged on for longer. Not that that was the reason he bonked at the end, but it didn't make the final easier for him either.

He rode poorly, and he mostly has to blame himself. He should just have let Pogi go after the intermediate sprint, it was completely unnecessary to chase him as the group was still big, so if he had just waited for a bit, his teammates would have hit the front and Pogi would have sat up.

I won't even talk about how he rode on the climb, but I don't think he should have feared a last km sprint.

In general, while he has amazing legs, he doesn't have a nose for racing. In fact, I think he is more hampered by his inability to read a race than he is by his nerves. It's also those two attributes that make him "passive", I think.

 

[Netserk]

Unfortunately, as much as I like Roglic, he has not shown in the past three Tours that he deserves to be a protected leader over Vingegaard, That old saw, to finish first you have to first finish, applies here. The only possible use I could see for Roglic in the Tour this year is as a super dom with orders to stay out of trouble until you're needed for a key stage, much like Kuss.

Of course he doesn't deserve to be ahead in the pecking order of the defending Tour champion, but he has shown enough over the last three Tours to be a co-captain. Just like Vingegaard was at the Tour start last year.

 

[Andy schleck]

Roglic is doing the Giro not only to be the sole leader but to show Vingegaard can't beat Pogi without him.

Yeah, i remember roglic carrying vingegaard on hautacam and in the last TT. You, pogacar fans are copying what remco fanboys do when remco loses.
Making stupid excuses(like colnago bike for example), and taking the merit from the winners. I really don't like when people take the merit from the winners. It's not the right thing to do.

 

[Red Rick]

I do think Jumbo like to overplay the importance of their team strength in the win, which kinda underplays how ungodly strong Vingegaard was.

 

[OJRvE]

The two last posts pretty much sums it up I think.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yeah, i remember roglic carrying vingegaard on hautacam and in the last TT. You, pogacar fans are copying what remco fanboys do when remco loses.
Making stupid excuses(like colnago bike for example), and taking the merit from the winners. I really don't like when people take the merit from the winners. It's not the right thing to do.

I'm not exactly a Pogacar fanboy, but if you can't see Pogacar lost that Tour at least as much as Vingegaard won it, then you haven't been paying attention the past 3 years. Pogacar underestimated Vingegaard, underestimated Roglic' injuries, and overestimated himself, riding like an idiot. Next TDF course will be less favourable for Vingegaard, Pogacar will have Piper in the team car again, and Roglic won't be there. Let's see how Vingegaard handles the pressure of being the big favourite.

 

[acm]

It seems to me that you guys don't know Pogi very well... Roglic is his "weak spot" and he would never let him go.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yes we will see. But IMO I think Pogi should choose Vingegaard. Sure, its a risk but like I said if Roglic gets away that is also a problem for Vingegaard who I think is JVs designated leader now. Trying to cover two powerful wheels is a great way to blow - like Granon.

I have no problems whatsoever with that. That is if Pogi would chose Jonas. We'll see.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yeah, i remember roglic carrying vingegaard on hautacam and in the last TT. You, pogacar fans are copying what remco fanboys do when remco loses.
Making stupid excuses(like colnago bike for example), and taking the merit from the winners. I really don't like when people take the merit from the winners. It's not the right thing to do.

But I don't think Vingegaard can't beat Pogi. I'm just assuming what Roglic is thinking in doing the Giro.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I do think Jumbo like to overplay the importance of their team strength in the win, which kinda underplays how ungodly strong Vingegaard was.

I haven't seen that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

How will he be in a similar situation when Roglic is riding the Giro? Which I don't understand honestly, if I was JV I would've added Roglic to my roster.

Roglič will likely do a GT double in 2023 anyway. Like in the past four seasons. Hence if he does good at Giro. Then in my opinion Tour becomes a realistic option. We'll see.

P.S. For now the focus is on stage 5 at TA.

 

[Bushman]

I'm not exactly a Pogacar fanboy, but if you can't see Pogacar lost that Tour at least as much as Vingegaard won it, then you haven't been paying attention the past 3 years. Pogacar underestimated Vingegaard, underestimated Roglic' injuries, and overestimated himself, riding like an idiot. Next TDF course will be less favourable for Vingegaard, Pogacar will have Piper in the team car again, and Roglic won't be there. Let's see how Vingegaard handles the pressure of being the big favourite.

Sure, Pogacar overestimated himself and did not manage his efforts as well as he could have, but you cant really deny that Vingegaard won the race because he was by far the best climber in the race. He made huge differences the few times he really dug in.

 

[Andy schleck]

Sure, Pogacar overestimated himself and did not manage his efforts as well as he could have, but you cant really deny that Vingegaard won the race because he was by far the best climber in the race. He made huge differences the few times he really dug in.

He was also a better TT.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Sure, Pogacar overestimated himself and did not manage his efforts as well as he could have, but you cant really deny that Vingegaard won the race because he was by far the best climber in the race. He made huge differences the few times he really dug in.

If Vingegaard doesn't ride for Jumbo, he loses 5 minutes on the pavé. Race over. If Pogacar doesn't ride like he thinks he's a Marvel character, if he doesn't loose his cool before Granon, the entire race would have been different. He wasted energy the first two weeks, which is what he paid for in the third week.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Attacking is much more tasking then defending. And Pogi attacked and attacked after stage 11. So it was just a matter of time when he will crack again. But he lost the race on stage 11. Not prior or after that.

 

[Andy schleck]

If Vingegaard doesn't ride for Jumbo, he loses 5 minutes on the pavé. Race over. If Pogacar doesn't ride like he thinks he's a Marvel character, if he doesn't loose his cool before Granon, the entire race would have been different. He wasted energy the first two weeks, which is what he paid for in the third week.

You are being dishonest about pavé stage, because Vingegaard had 2 punctures. He wasn't dropped in the pavés by pogacar, he just had bad luck. Yeah, he got luck that the team help him minimize the losses, but he also had bad luck.

Pogacar never showed that he could drop Vingegaard in the mountains, pavé, or be better than him in the ITT. Do you like excuses? I can also tell some "excuses". Vingegaard lost 7 seconds to pogacar in the first TT because pogacar benefited for better climateric conditions.

You can’t say that pogacar should have won if he didn't made the mistakes that you are talking about, because he never proved that he could be able to drop Vingegaard in the mountains, and be better than Vingegaard in the TTs.

The only thing that pogacar showed that he was better than Vingegaard on that tour, was in the sprints.
Like you say many times, there's no "evidence" that pogacar was better than Vingegaard in the mountains, and in the "TTs".

 

[Andy schleck]

Attacking is much more tasking then defending. And Pogi attacked and attacked after stage 11. So it was just a matter of time when he will crack again. But he lost the race on stage 11. Not prior or after that.

The defender also have to push hard to be able to follow the riders that attacks. If the defender isn't at the same level or better than the rider that attacks, he will get dropped.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Andy schleck

That is true that Jonas needed to be in an exceptional form. For being able to defend against such attacks. Still it's a whole different playing field. On how tasking attacking is compared to defending.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You are being dishonest about pavé stage, because Vingegaard had 2 punctures. He wasn't dropped in the pavés by pogacar, he just had bad luck. Yeah, he got luck that the team help him minimize the losses, but he also had bad luck.

Pogacar never showed that he could drop Vingegaard in the mountains, pavé, or be better than him in the ITT. Do you like excuses? I can also tell some "excuses". Vingegaard lost 7 seconds to pogacar in the first TT because pogacar benefited for better climateric conditions.

You can’t say that pogacar should have won if he didn't made the mistakes that you are talking about, because he never proved that he could be able to drop Vingegaard in the mountains, and be better than Vingegaard in the TTs.

The only thing that pogacar showed that he was better than Vingegaard on that tour, was in the sprints.
Like you say many times, there's no "evidence" that pogacar was better than Vingegaard in the mountains, and in the "TTs".

I have no dog in this fight. But i do have eyes and i do have a brain. While it might be true that Vingegaard is the better pure climber on long HC climbs, in all other areas, Pogacar is superior. You keep bringing up the TT but keep ignoring the fact that by that time, Pogacar had already done a good job of wrecking himself. At best you could lay claim that they are about each other's equal at TT. Yet Pogacar is the far superior puncher, sprinter, classic-style rider, and to my memory so far Vingegaard has shown f*-all at stages/races over 220km.

Conditions for Vingegaard to win the 2022TDF were ideal. Roglic was not an internal threat anymore after the pavé, but only the team itself knew this. Pogacar went deep on the pavé stage while Vingegaard got carried by his team. Pogacar continued to waste energy throughout the first two weeks, and got played by the Roglic' decoy manoeuvre. Van Aert was key to breaking Pogacar down further (to this Pogacar himself admitted). That's why Vingegaard was able to take that much time on two key stages. We will see in a few months when he can no longer start as an underdog, when he can no longer play tag-team with Roglic, when he enters a TDF much less tailored to his strengths, when Pogacar has a teammanager in the car who has more than two braincells, and when Pogacar has hopefully (for him) learned that he too is human and should better manage his efforts.

The day of the pavé stage last year, i said the big winner would be Vingegaard, because he wasted no energy, and Pogacar went balls out, and that could come back to bite him in the ass. And i believe it did. But keep judging only the climbing performances out of context. Just like people in 2021 knew Evenepoel would never be able to win a GT because he couldn't climb (Zoncolan), ignoring the context.

 

[Bushman]

If Vingegaard doesn't ride for Jumbo, he loses 5 minutes on the pavé. Race over. If Pogacar doesn't ride like he thinks he's a Marvel character, if he doesn't loose his cool before Granon, the entire race would have been different. He wasted energy the first two weeks, which is what he paid for in the third week.

Purely hypothetical arguments. In another universe, Vingegaard might lose 10 minutes on the cobbles, he might lose 30 seconds, he might gain a minute because Pogacar punctures three times. It’s not an argument for anything.
I do agree that Pogacar did not ride very smart and wasted a lot of energy but I think Jumbo-Visma should be applauded for making it possible by racing the way they did. They knew their best chance was making it a pure endurance race on the harder climbs. On the Granon stage, Vingegaard also had to go into red 60 k before the finish like Pogacar, still smoked everyone on the finish.
Vingegaard, and Jumbo-Visma, were better prepared for the race than Pogacar and as a result, Vingegaard was a superior climber (and probably tt’er) in that race. I’m not arguing that he is a better GC rider in general, but there just cant be any doubt that Vingegaard was the best gc rider in the Tour de France 2022.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Purely hypothetical arguments. In another universe, Vingegaard might lose 10 minutes on the cobbles, he might lose 30 seconds, he might gain a minute because Pogacar punctures three times. It’s not an argument for anything.

Then you might as well quit your forum account if you are not willing to venture into hypothetical arguments. And, Pogacar wouldn't have punctured 3 times. Do you know how i know that? Because the race already happened and he didn't.

 

[Netserk]

Do you know how i know that? Because the race already happened and he didn't.

The race where Vingegaard raced for Jumbo happened, and Pogi didn't puncture there. The race where Vingegaard didn't race for Jumbo didn't happen, so you don't know what would follow downstream from that, including whether or not Pogi would have a puncture or three.

 

[Red Rick]

I think hypotheticals that are somewhat likely are still interesting. I think Vingegaard still wins the Tour if Pogacar races smart on the Galibier. I think he's still the likely winner if Roglic hadn't crashed. He was simply climbing too good.

I think the trickle down effects from the cobbled stage and Granon on Pogacar are super overblown. Ignore Vingegaard and Pogacar was by far the best before and after that stage. Planche de Belles Filles and Peyragudes played out identically. The only interesting question for me is if Vingegaard could've actually dropped Pogacar on Peyragudes and Mende if he hadn't waited for the sprint.

Meanwhile, I hope he nukes it tomorrow. Gotta get that elusive 2nd place tire out Pogacar for his team leader Van Aert.