JV ......Is "yes" so hard to say?

[Dr. Maserati]

I want to congratulate Anthony Tan on this new Jonathan Vaughters interview - and especially for asking the questions many of us wanted asked.

I have been pretty vocal in supporting JV - I think he is trying to do the right thing, but doing the right thing involves taking responsibility and in this interview (IMO) I believe he has missed the best opportunity to admit his past.

“Precisely. I just don’t believe in sensationalism. I think doping issues, they need to be solved in a pragmatic and efficient way – but the sensationalism that goes along with them, is just something that I don’t appreciate. At the end of the day, what everyone is after in sport, is that we have clean competition and that we have a clean winner and that the races are real and that the veracity of those race results is assured.”

JV - please take the time to reread the highlighted quote a few times.

What you say there is "we" want honesty and something we can believe in.
A cornerstone to that wish is faith in those that participate in the sport (rider,owner,admin etc).
The first step to that is honesty - not "no comments" or waffle - just plain honesty.
I really cannot understand how any honest admission could ever reflect badly on you or your team. To clean up the sport we need people to come clean and this is a wasted opportunity.


(I know there are other JV threads here but I believe this interview deserves its own thread for discussion on this issue)

 

[GoGarmin]

Good article.

From my standpoint I get where JV is coming from. And I get the politics of not saying yes.

The man knows far more about trying to clean up the sport than I do, and I legitimately believe he's trying to do his part to do so. So he gets a pass from me on this issue.

 

[Digger]

Editing as I don;t have the energy to restate my ponts on JV, thus getting into another debate about him.

 

[thehog]

Give it a rest. He's not the devil!

JV is in the same position as Floyd. Admit to doping then next 2 questions are: "Did you see Lance dope?" and "Was Bruyneel aware?" - JV held the record up Ventoux for christsakes. He's was not Herrea or Para. Join the dots.

Cut him some slack. He employees over 100 people, runs an anti-doping program at his own expense and contributes a great deal to cycling. If he drops Lance and everyone else in it in his position he loses his standing.

JV has done more for the anti-doping movement than your left thumb. Give it up.

Leave it to Floyd to smash Armstrong.

As I've always said; Vaughters is anti-doping not anti-Lance.*

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

"no comment"

 

[Dettol]

He doesn't want to become another Bjarne Riis.

 

[hrotha]

I get what JV is saying and I don't think he's being consciously hypocritical. The impression I get is that he's simply scared of the consequences of coming out as a former doper. I can respect that, even if I think honesty is important in this issue.

JV, if you're reading this: you know you're not the only one saying cycling has changed and etc. It's what the likes of Pat McQuaid say. Do you want to be like McQuaid? I bet not. The point is, it doesn't matter how much you guys talk about where cycling is going when you're not painting a full, clear and honest picture of where cycling was. If you guys are not willing to be honest about the state of cycling ten years ago, why should we believe you when you speak about the state of cycling now? How can we judge whether cycling has changed if you deny us a frame of reference?

You know there's a high chance the whole story will hit the news eventually. It's always better to present the information in your own terms and following your own timetable.

 

[Deagol]

I think he kind of has said “yes” but not directly. He has said yes in a round-a-bout way a few times in the past and this is more of that. I’m guessing he has his reasons for not coming out and saying it in plain English, but I’m sure he knows that anyone who has been paying attention can read between the lines (Actualy, I would say that even someone who has NOT been paying attention could still see what JV was saying “behind his words”). He has done a far more admirable thing than those who actually have been busted and weave elaborate tales for their excuses. I can see where he is coming from when talking about sensationalism. In America these days, it seems that the attention span of the public is very short and the level of detail paid attention to is low. Everyone who is a true cycling fan, if they read this and other sources, can put two and two together and see that JV is “confessing” without out doing it in as plain a way as to draw the attention of the mainstream and tabloid-ish media. I think he wants the real fans to know but is trying to avoid a headline in a mainstream rag along the lines of “HEAD OF CYCLING’S CLEAN TEAM ADMITS TO DRUG DOPING”. Many would not read much further than the headlines, and the team probably would be dragged-down by that. I think he is being pragmatic, it is after all not a very perfect world…

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Give it a rest. He's not the devil!

JV is in the same position as Floyd. Admit to doping then next 2 questions are: "Did you see Lance dope?" and "Was Bruyneel aware?" - JV held the record up Ventoux for christsakes. He's was not Herrea or Para. Join the dots.

Cut him some slack. He employees over 100 people, runs an anti-doping program at his own expense and contributes a great deal to cycling. If he drops Lance and everyone else in it in his position he loses his standing.

JV has done more for the anti-doping movement that your left thumb. Give it up.

Leave it to Floyd to smash Armstrong.

As I've always said; Vaughters is anti-doping not anti-Lance.*

No, not this time - Tan gave JV the perfect opportunity as he separated JVs personal doping and that of USPS - which JV pretty much answered honestly.

At this point in time it’s so far in the past it’s... At the end of the day, this isn’t about me; this team is about the riders and the results they produce on the road and it’s their stories and the sport,” he says. "So it’s not about me. That’s the basic reason why – I don’t feel like it’s something worthwhile to comment on.”

Any question about his own doping is about him - it is completely separate from his team.

 

[Dettol]

Any question about his own doping is about him - it is completely separate from his team.

Really how naive. Do you live in the real world?

 

[Polish]

In the recent past it was ok for JV to hint and tease and IM about his EPO use on Mt Ventoux.
Everyone was doing it.

But times have changed. Federal investigations are taking place.

Where and how did JV get that batch of EPO?
Internet back then? From Lance? Ohio? China?
No doubt it was obtained illegally?

It is no longer a joking matter.
Spill the beans or say "no comment".

 

[Oldman]

In the recent past it was ok for JV to hint and tease and IM about his EPO use on Mt Ventoux.
Everyone was doing it.

But times have changed. Federal investigations are taking place.

Where and how did JV get that batch of EPO?
Internet back then? From Lance? Ohio? China?
No doubt it was obtained illegally?

It is no longer a joking matter.
Spill the beans or say "no comment".

I'm going to agree with the concern he has for his employees and his current team regarding personal mea culpas. He has that burden but he also is riding the "clean team" train and is responsible on another level to back that claim up. An admission could be a positive affirmation about his team (no pun intended) but he may already have provided information to the GJ that discourages him from further disclosure.
His admission may actually lend credence to the LA developing argument that it was OK at the time and JV's current admissions show he is equally dishonest.
I'd say give him time to sort this out as he is not the devil of the moment.

 

[straydog]

ok...time to wade in with my size twelves.

The OP's thread title, and some of the other JV baiting recently, smack of some really desperate scape goating. I never thought I would say this but I agree with deagol, hrotha and the hog completely.

Honestly, with every day that it appears you know who might not get busted, some people's need to have a villain takes on more and more ridiculous proportions. You honestly cannot understand why JV wants to avoid sensationalist headlines? You honestly can't see why he believes the way he is trying to ensure a future clean sport is preferable to "witch hunts"? You honestly think he doesn't know the culture that has existed in cycling for 20 years and how best to persuade riders to leave it behind?

He is obviously one of the "good" guys in this circus. He even had the balls or "spine" to come on here and answer some of you directly, regarding your "accusations". And what do you do? Hound him off here with ridiculous trolling and baiting.

Listen, if you think he is doing it so badly, why don't you start up your own team and use all of your "expertise" and "experience" to show him where he is going wrong? Or perhaps firing shots anonymously from the safety of your laptop is safer? Less chance of getting found out? Or perhaps your "expertise" and "experience" has only been gleaned from internet forums rather than professional cycling?

The balls in your court. Let's see team Maserati.

 

[D-Queued]

LOL

JV ......Is "yes" so hard to say?

No. Why do you ask?

Dave.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Dr Maserati, I am pretty sure that Tan actually got a lot of quotes from other threads. Tan is not a great cycling writer and you will realise this if you read some of his other pieces, such as the one on BroDeal.

 

[BotanyBay]

He is obviously one of the "good" guys in this circus. He even had the balls or "spine" to come on here and answer some of you directly, regarding your "accusations". And what do you do? Hound him off here with ridiculous trolling and baiting.

I think we're starting to define some standards for what constitutes "good". Many of us believe that means full disclosure. Few qualify.

He did come on here, but he didn't really answer anything. No one scared him off. This was the only thing that attracted him in the first place.

 

[straydog]

I think we're starting to define some standards for what constitutes "good". Many of us believe that means full disclosure. Few qualify.

He did come on here, but he didn't really answer anything. No one scared him off. This was the only thing that attracted him in the first place.

sorry....I certainly didn't mean to give the impression he was "scared" off....much more likely bored....

I love your definition of "good" though....so someone's actions are irrelevant so long as they are "honest" about it?

Sorry, gotta go tell my wife I am off to see some strippers....

 

[ingsve]

I want to congratulate Anthony Tan on this new Jonathan Vaughters interview - and especially for asking the questions many of us wanted asked.

I have been pretty vocal in supporting JV - I think he is trying to do the right thing, but doing the right thing involves taking responsibility and in this interview (IMO) I believe he has missed the best opportunity to admit his past.

JV - please take the time to reread the highlighted quote a few times.

What you say there is "we" want honesty and something we can believe in.
A cornerstone to that wish is faith in those that participate in the sport (rider,owner,admin etc).
The first step to that is honesty - not "no comments" or waffle - just plain honesty.
I really cannot understand how any honest admission could ever reflect badly on you or your team. To clean up the sport we need people to come clean and this is a wasted opportunity.


(I know there are other JV threads here but I believe this interview deserves its own thread for discussion on this issue)

I totally understand where he is coming from. The only result that could come from his saying yes is more sensationalist headlines and that's exactly what he wants to avoid.

In Sweden right now 95% of the national media attention that cycling gets is when someone new is caught doping. Most sports jounalists don't care a whiff about cycling and it's only when they can get a juicy headline badmouthing cycling that they even bother writing about it. And when doping happens in other sports it's not even mentioned.

It takes Larsson winning a Giro stage or Emma Johansson winning a worlds medal for them to write anything other than doping news.

So how would it be good in any possible way for JV to add to that kind of stuff? It doesn't help the sport one bit.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

ok...time to wade in with my size twelves.

The OP's thread title, and some of the other JV baiting recently, smack of some really desperate scape goating. I never thought I would say this but I agree with deagol, hrotha and the hog completely.

Honestly, with every day that it appears you know who might not get busted, some people's need to have a villain takes on more and more ridiculous proportions. You honestly cannot understand why JV wants to avoid sensationalist headlines? You honestly can't see why he believes the way he is trying to ensure a future clean sport is preferable to "witch hunts"? You honestly think he doesn't know the culture that has existed in cycling for 20 years and how best to persuade riders to leave it behind?

He is obviously one of the "good" guys in this circus. He even had the balls or "spine" to come on here and answer some of you directly, regarding your "accusations". And what do you do? Hound him off here with ridiculous trolling and baiting.

Listen, if you think he is doing it so badly, why don't you start up your own team and use all of your "expertise" and "experience" to show him where he is going wrong? Or perhaps firing shots anonymously from the safety of your laptop is safer? Less chance of getting found out? Or perhaps your "expertise" and "experience" has only been gleaned from internet forums rather than professional cycling?

The balls in your court. Let's see team Maserati.

While its good to see you back - you might want to read my opinions on the other threads as I was one of the few supporting him and offering some perspective on his position - in particular getting accused of things he has no control over.

Also - dial back on the highlighted strawman. I don't think he is doing "so badly" (I even said that in my OP) - but he was offered a clear fresh chance to set HIS doping straight. Lets face it - he would have been only admitting what he already has heavily hinted at - it would have been a newspaper one day and a fish n chips wrapper the next.

I don't have $50k to start a team.
I have been involved in every level of cycling from ProTour all the way to standing on a corner with a flag for underage races.
I have no problem in meeting/discussing etc anything with JV publicly or privately. i met him on a number of occasions this year but he is a busy guy - but I spotted him standing all alone at Tirreno Adriatico (to my surprise as he tweeted he was at PN) this year but when I returned to the team bus he had gone.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dr Maserati, I am pretty sure that Tan actually got a lot of quotes from other threads. Tan is not a great cycling writer and you will realise this if you read some of his other pieces, such as the one on BroDeal.

I will highlight the important word I used when discussing Tans new piece.

I want to congratulate Anthony Tan on this new Jonathan Vaughters interview

Being honest I am not that fimiliar with ATs other pieces - so I have no opinion overall, but this piece is certainly good.

May I ask what you mean by "Tan actually got a lot of quotes from other threads"? Were quotes lifted from here??

 

[straydog]

While its good to see you back - you might want to read my opinions on the other threads as I was one of the few supporting him and offering some perspective on his position - in particular getting accused of things he has no control over.

Also - dial back on the highlighted strawman. I don't think he is doing "so badly" (I even said that in my OP) - but he was offered a clear fresh chance to set HIS doping straight. Lets face it - he would have been only admitting what he already has heavily hinted at - it would have been a newspaper one day and a fish n chips wrapper the next.

I don't have $50k to start a team.
I have been involved in every level of cycling from ProTour all the way to standing on a corner with a flag for underage races.
I have no problem in meeting/discussing etc anything with JV publicly or privately. i met him on a number of occasions this year but he is a busy guy - but I spotted him standing all alone at Tirreno Adriatico (to my surprise as he tweeted he was at PN) this year but when I returned to the team bus he had gone.

OK Mas, firstly I was generalising on the "you" part....apologies if that wasn't clear. By "you" I meant the plural...not you individually. As such the "strawman", as you put it, was also a general comment on the JV bashers.

If I might say, your assertion about meeting or discussing with JV, opens you up to my next comment.

Having been away from here for a bit, I was genuinely amazed, when I logged in last night, at Buck's and some others reaction to JV's posting here. Honestly I think there is an element of an attempt to "get involved"....to feel important....to goad JV into a dialogue via PM or in person...so as to feel like an "insider".

An example would be Buck's starting of a thread to let the world know JV had contacted him, and then his pasting of the pm into the thread etc.

So here's what I suggest....if you think you have some ideas for JV...pm him....if he ignores it, or doesn't think it is worth his attention....there's your answer. Leave it at that.

So, back to this thread...look at the rest of my questions. Do you really not understand why a definitive "yes" would cause him problems in the mainstream press and thus negatively affect his ability to garner sponsorship money or race invites?

Listen, I am not even a JV fanboy....I hate the 'burns and he can be a bit catty about Lancy...but honestly I think he is doing the right things for a clean sport. And that includes not going all Landis on our asses....and also includes not saying what we all know about the pasts of some of his riders.

 

[Spider1964]

ok...time to wade in with my size twelves.

The OP's thread title, and some of the other JV baiting recently, smack of some really desperate scape goating. I never thought I would say this but I agree with deagol, hrotha and the hog completely.

Honestly, with every day that it appears you know who might not get busted, some people's need to have a villain takes on more and more ridiculous proportions. You honestly cannot understand why JV wants to avoid sensationalist headlines? You honestly can't see why he believes the way he is trying to ensure a future clean sport is preferable to "witch hunts"? You honestly think he doesn't know the culture that has existed in cycling for 20 years and how best to persuade riders to leave it behind?

He is obviously one of the "good" guys in this circus. He even had the balls or "spine" to come on here and answer some of you directly, regarding your "accusations". And what do you do? Hound him off here with ridiculous trolling and baiting.

Listen, if you think he is doing it so badly, why don't you start up your own team and use all of your "expertise" and "experience" to show him where he is going wrong? Or perhaps firing shots anonymously from the safety of your laptop is safer? Less chance of getting found out? Or perhaps your "expertise" and "experience" has only been gleaned from internet forums rather than professional cycling?

The balls in your court. Let's see team Maserati.

+1 appears to be the weapon of choice for the internet mafia...

JV is one of the good guys and (from appearances) doing all he can to create and manage a clean team. He comes out as a doper and costs 100 families their wage earner... what does that achieve? It might be my Catholicism but ever since Mary Magdelene rocked up to Jesus many moons ago, I was of the opinion that past sins could be forgiven? Obviously not around here. If JV is the only person in the PT who doped, then I'll go he...

Keep it real gentleman

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

+1 appears to be the weapon of choice for the internet mafia...

JV is one of the good guys and (from appearances) doing all he can to create and manage a clean team. He comes out as a doper and costs 100 families their wage earner... what does that achieve? It might be my Catholicism but ever since Mary Magdelene rocked up to Jesus many moons ago, I was of the opinion that past sins could be forgiven? Obviously not around here. If JV is the only person in the PT who doped, then I'll go he...

Keep it real gentleman

My Catholicism may be rusty... Isn't confession the road to absolution?

You may want to try another analogy...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK Mas, firstly I was generalising on the "you" part....apologies if that wasn't clear. By "you" I meant the plural...not you individually. As such the "strawman", as you put it, was also a general comment on the JV bashers.

If I might say, your assertion about meeting or discussing with JV, opens you up to my next comment.

Having been away from here for a bit, I was genuinely amazed, when I logged in last night, at Buck's and some others reaction to JV's posting here. Honestly I think there is an element of an attempt to "get involved"....to feel important....to goad JV into a dialogue via PM or in person...so as to feel like an "insider".

An example would be Buck's starting of a thread to let the world know JV had contacted him, and then his pasting of the pm into the thread etc.

So here's what I suggest....if you think you have some ideas for JV...pm him....if he ignores it, or doesn't think it is worth his attention....there's your answer. Leave it at that.

So, back to this thread...look at the rest of my questions. Do you really not understand why a definitive "yes" would cause him problems in the mainstream press and thus negatively affect his ability to garner sponsorship money or race invites?

Listen, I am not even a JV fanboy....I hate the 'burns and he can be a bit catty about Lancy...but honestly I think he is doing the right things for a clean sport. And that includes not going all Landis on our asses....and also includes not saying what we all know about the pasts of some of his riders.

I agree with pretty much everything you said - with (perhaps) the exception of the highlighted.

I don't think an honest admission would have an effect on the teams participation nor would his sponsors leave. He has heavily hinted at his prior doping - so its not really news.

Riis denied denied denied and only "came clean" becasue he was going to be outed by D' Hondt book. It did not cost him any sponsorship - the only fallout was not being allowed at one Tour.


To the other point - no, I'm not claiming I have any insider info or major contacts - but I actively follow the Pro scene and its actually a very small world.

 

[straydog]

My Catholicism may be rusty... Isn't confession the road to absolution?

Yes....but confession is always private....between only the sinner and priest.....not posted for all to see on an internet forum....so actually I think his analogy is perfectly apt.