Kittel

[Don't be late Pedro]

well, a doper could load up on testosterone and other recovery drugs and be fully recovered for the next day. Sure it doesn't "prove" he's clean, but showing fatigue from a hard day is more "human" than "alien".

Or it could be that since most of his team were shelled out the back he was left to work much harder.

Either way it is as near to meaningless (in my opinion) to speculate on whether he is doping based on this.

 

[blackcat]

Possibly. The same sprinters all do the same 10-20 second sprint at the end of three sprint stages, in theory barring falls or injury they all arrive at the next stage sprint as tired or as fresh as each other? Maybe the best guy just wins?

but they are really sprinting for the entire last 2km, you are just equating out-of-saddle last 250metres = sprinting. well, that is when they are max, but they are pretty close to it before

I would doubt just one guy is doing something either. One in all in sort of spirit I would say. So I pose another question, if they were all on steroids could one guy win three in a row? I think history as said yes to that one.

i disagree, when one triangulates it, and competes against everyone else on the "strength and power" PEDs that aid the explosivity, i dont think this is possible. and anyway, when the peloton dictates the norms, it would be out of whack to think anyone places himself above the fray wrt taking something

 

[yespatterns]

Vanialla Ice was pretty dope, maybe Kittel just stocked up on his albums?

 

[Athame]

_ _ humm,...

 

[Yorkshire89]

Personally think Argos are one of if not the cleanest team in the pro tour. I don't look at anyone in their team & think doper

 

[sniper]

Personally think Argos are one of if not the cleanest team in the pro tour. I don't look at anyone in their team & think doper

a clean team beating doping teams during several stages of the Giro and TdF, the two places where all teams are desperate to shine.
cool story bro!

 

[Netserk]

a clean team beating doping teams during several stages of the Giro and TdF, the two places where all teams are desperate to shine.
cool story bro!

He didn't say they were clean, just the cleanest. Of the 18 teams one will have to be the least dirty one (ergo the cleanest) and if not Argos/Giant, which team do you think that is?

 

[sniper]

He didn't say they were clean, just the cleanest. Of the 18 teams one will have to be the least dirty one (ergo the cleanest) and if not Argos/Giant, which team do you think that is?

well

I don't look at anyone in their team & think doper

iow, he seems to think they're all clean.
i find that hard to believe judging from their results.

you're right that one team will be the cleanest but i doubt it's going to be a dutch team.

 

[hrotha]

iow, he seems to think they're all clean.
i find that hard to believe.

Your interpretation is a stretch. I took that simply to mean "no one strikes me as an obvious doper; they may be doping but no one appears to be supercharging or anything", i.e. they seem to be cleaner than other teams.

 

[Netserk]

well

iow, he seems to think they're all clean.
i find that hard to believe judging from their results.

you're right that one team will be the cleanest but i doubt it's going to be a dutch team.

Instead of an Italian or American team??? If you had to pick one team you think is the least dirty one, which is it?

 

[sniper]

Your interpretation is a stretch. I took that simply to mean "no one strikes me as an obvious doper; they may be doping but no one appears to be supercharging or anything", i.e. they seem to be cleaner than other teams.

fair point

Instead of an Italian or American team??? If you had to pick one team you think is the least dirty one, which is it?

with my degree of knowledge of present day cycling (marginal compared to most posters here) i surely shouldn't make any claims as to who i think is cleanest.
It's a difficult question, as i do think some of the low ranked teams contain some obvious chargers (kittel being a nice case in point, voeckler another).
for what it's worth, in the netherlands juicing seems to be ignored on many levels and to a considerable extent appears to be institutionally supported as the case of adrienne herzog for instance shows.
Note also that e.g. boogerd is still immensely popular.
We've been finding out how Dutch cylcing has been at the heart of many doping scandals, and many of the riders who've been key figures in those scandals continue to play a role in (Dutch) cycling. \
Belkin's existential problems and their move to Girona combined with their good results in last years tdf all doesn't bode well for Belkin being clean. I have no reason to assume Argos are clean either.

 

[Netserk]

fair point


with my degree of knowledge of present day cycling (marginal compared to most posters here) i surely shouldn't make any claims as to who i think is cleanest.
It's a difficult question, as i do think some of the low ranked teams contain some obvious chargers (kittel being a nice case in point, voeckler another).
for what it's worth, in the netherlands juicing seems to be ignored on many levels and to a considerable extent appears to be institutionally supported as the case of adrienne herzog for instance shows.
Note also that e.g. boogerd is still immensely popular.
We've been finding out how Dutch cylcing has been at the heart of many doping scandals, and many of the riders who've been key figures in those scandals continue to play a role in (Dutch) cycling. \
Belkin's existential problems and their move to Girona combined with their good results in last years tdf all doesn't bode well for Belkin being clean. I have no reason to assume Argos are clean either.

Ok let me rephrase my question. Of Belkin, Giant, FDJ and Garmin, which 3 teams do you think are most suspicious/dirty?

 

[B_Ugli]

Watched the Film made at the 2013 TDF on Netflix last night about Argos Shimano. In terms of seeing how the team operated from the inside it was good and the behind the scenes aspect was interesting.

It was insightful but somewhat vague in terms of doping. They start off asking Rudi Kemna about the past and he pretty much say she took EPO but things are different now and you would get caught. It gets vague with Koen de Kort who talks about when he rode for Liberty Seguros, on the one hand he talks of the good spirit at LS and then goes onto say that they all met in Madrid before the start of big tours. He sort of alludes to what was going on at LS but says he wasn't a part of it/didn't see anything but in the next breath goes on to say he is glad he doesn't now have to do the things they did back then.

Then you have footage of the team car handing out caffeine pills and the team doctor laying out a handful of supplements/legal performance enhancers that some riders take on a daily basis.

If it was an attempt to portray the team as clean it depends on what your definition of clean is!! It just seemed quite inconclusive.

 

[58teeth]

Funny...i Just watched it last night too.

Agree, it's totally inconclusive. I spent part of the flim googling the various doctors/etc to see if there were any interesting relationships, and of course there are. I didn't get the feeling from Kemna that he was totally telling the truth. He had that "who me?" look Bruyneel had on his face.

Doesn't really matter now though, as Kittel has some mystery illness.

 

[blackcat]

sounds like the Riis CSC documentary Overcoming about 9 years ago. we know how that ended dont we...

 

[IndianCyclist]

Kittel going from Zero to Hero over winter. How do you develop (in 3 months) top end fitness so quickly. I see the hand of Jose Ibarguren Taus in this or was it just a mental block.