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Koechli & Helvetia/La Suisse-the clean team

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Jun 12, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
which is interesting in todays pro cycling world where 'supposedly' clean teams are getting results albeit few and far between Garmin/Sky!

In a very recent conversation with a top uk female rider from when BC introduced the "World Class Performance Plan" I was shocked to be told that she was asked "would you be prepared to take "enhancements".
She declined and was dropped from the squad.
Read in to that what you will.
I`ve always believed BC was running a clean show but the appointment of certain people in recent years is forcing me to question that.
Sorry I cant give the riders name as it would be a real breach of confidentiality.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Only to happy to bring back the memories, I was just getting into cycling in that era, I was still a boy but hoovered up any info I could, I still have all my old magazines from that period so I like to dig them out and pore over them now and again, maybe its just a desire to hark back to more innocent times.

Its strange but I can probably name all the classics winners from back then better than I can name more recent winners.

I hear you on that... Sort of the old days of a 'tough man contest on the cobbles'. I really like the analogy of the head-butting contest. "How hard are you going to hit me? Unh! Not enough! Now take that!...". Until Ballerini's show of riding through everyone from mid-field to take the win in 98. That was ridiculous! And possibly questionable...

How deep is your Winning Magazine archive? I can't find an archive online, and I know some of my North American friends had some prank-call type letters in the early nineties posted in the 'letters' section. I'm thinking spring 1992. Let me know if you have those.

As you were saying, bring on the innocent times! Sure, some were doped, but it's nothing like it is now. With no one REALLY trying to stem the use of PEDs, it's sort of the era of *** Superhumaness. Not a lot of drama and romance left in the sport, and for me that's really sad...
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Pardon the punctuation.

LA Sherrif AND Montgomery were dirty.

They shared some staff and internal resources, so I tend to lump teams from that era and geographical location together.
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
I hear you on that... Sort of the old days of a 'tough man contest on the cobbles'. I really like the analogy of the head-butting contest. "How hard are you going to hit me? Unh! Not enough! Now take that!...". Until Ballerini's show of riding through everyone from mid-field to take the win in 98. That was ridiculous! And possibly questionable...

How deep is your Winning Magazine archive? I can't find an archive online, and I know some of my North American friends had some prank-call type letters in the early nineties posted in the 'letters' section. I'm thinking spring 1992. Let me know if you have those.

As you were saying, bring on the innocent times! Sure, some were doped, but it's nothing like it is now. With no one REALLY trying to stem the use of PEDs, it's sort of the era of *** Superhumaness. Not a lot of drama and romance left in the sport, and for me that's really sad...

I do have most issues of Winning through 92/93, then I switched to Cycle Sport when it arrived as it was just a better mag for gleaming info, history etc.

PM me for the info you are looking for.
 
Jun 20, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
I do have most issues of Winning through 92/93, then I switched to Cycle Sport when it arrived as it was just a better mag for gleaming info, history etc.

PM me for the info you are looking for.

+ 1 CycleSport was so much better
 
Jun 20, 2009
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JMBeaushrimp said:
Alright, I grew up racing in that era - very late eighties, very early nineties...

Had outstanding palmares, touted as one of the most prodigal jrs of the era and grew into senior fame. At my innagural World Championships I was asked by a star (who's photos were literally on my bedroom wall - I was only seventeen) if I "had a good program". I told him that no, our program sucks - I hated the national team coach and his training programs sucked.

The Star looked at me like I was ***, and said "No! Hormones! Do you have a good hormone program?". I'm sure I looked at him equally retardedly, and said "Uh, no... I'm not really into that...".

OK, JMB, sorry to call you out on this, but I'm not yet persuaded by your story. I was riding at representational level too, just at the time you appear to have, and I have to say that I was exposed to doping a long, long time before rocking up to my first Worlds. It was so prevalent that not doping was treated as abnormal.

Happy to stand corrected, but you are going to need to provide more background if you want to dispel suspicions that your story is fictional. Look forward to hearing more.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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laziali said:
OK, JMB, sorry to call you out on this, but I'm not yet persuaded by your story. I was riding at representational level too, just at the time you appear to have, and I have to say that I was exposed to doping a long, long time before rocking up to my first Worlds. It was so prevalent that not doping was treated as abnormal.

Happy to stand corrected, but you are going to need to provide more background if you want to dispel suspicions that your story is fictional. Look forward to hearing more.

I never said that World's were my first exposure to doping in cycling. I didn't imply that, either. My personal historical account reinforces what you're saying about the prevalance of doping:

-'the star' had no issue openly talking to me about doping while competing at the WCs, someone who he essentially just met

-'the star' treated me like a naive bumpkin for not willing to 'get on the program', and even scolded me for being so opposed do doping
 
Jan 27, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
Sorry for dragging everyone into the document search... PMs, good way to go. I'm obviously old-school and/or ***.

I'd love to keep this thread going...

JMB,

Please don't stop talking about 'those days'... I only started to really race in my last yr of high-school and up here in Canada that is between April and Sept. I had to do something when the dream of Hockey success plummeted like an anvil (ha ha). So, in 87 I made my first race and looked up to Bauer as he was/is a Canuck, started off in hockey and then made the switch to cycling. I'm no Bauer that's for sure.

To bad for Bauer on at least 3 occasions: 1984 Olympics and A. Grewal testing positive for something and claiming he took a 'herbal' supplement; at the Worlds with Claude C, and Paris-Roubaix (losing by what 1 cm).

I remember a CBC spotlight on him and his coach said Bauer was obviously a slow climber but fearless descender...do you agree with that? There was an interview with SB at that time and was trying to figure out why at the end of his career he couldn't keep up, and he tried so many different options but they just weren't working, he looked truly depressed. He retired a couple of years later. I cannot remember the book I read it in but it was quoting SB during the end of one of his TdF's and he said something like," I cannot figure out where some of these riders have all their legs? See that kid over there he has more Testosterone right now than I do!"

I went down to the Altanta Olympics and cheered him on. Waited for him at the finish and jumped the barriers to chat with him wearing some homemade white shirts with Canadian flags spray-painted on them...I said, "Mr. Bauer great ride, great attempt at bridging, what do you think?" He looked at me and said, "thanks, have you seen my girl-friend?"

I was like Huh? How would I know where his Gfriend was. Then he just politely rode away and I realized he was probably freak'n tired and the last thing he wanted to do was chat to me after that long ride. Jokes on me. Good guy, and I continually hear what a solid person he was. I have yet to hear he doped and in his new DS role he overtly denounces dopers.

Sorry for the blethering but what is your insight into the days when you raced at high levels vs today and all the extra 'in-race' communication and information riders have now? Do you think it takes the spontaneity out of racing? Do you think its necessary?

Cheers

NW
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Neworld said:
JMB,

Please don't stop talking about 'those days'... I only started to really race in my last yr of high-school and up here in Canada that is between April and Sept. I had to do something when the dream of Hockey success plummeted like an anvil (ha ha). So, in 87 I made my first race and looked up to Bauer as he was/is a Canuck, started off in hockey and then made the switch to cycling. I'm no Bauer that's for sure.

To bad for Bauer on at least 3 occasions: 1984 Olympics and A. Grewal testing positive for something and claiming he took a 'herbal' supplement; at the Worlds with Claude C, and Paris-Roubaix (losing by what 1 cm).

I remember a CBC spotlight on him and his coach said Bauer was obviously a slow climber but fearless descender...do you agree with that? There was an interview with SB at that time and was trying to figure out why at the end of his career he couldn't keep up, and he tried so many different options but they just weren't working, he looked truly depressed. He retired a couple of years later. I cannot remember the book I read it in but it was quoting SB during the end of one of his TdF's and he said something like," I cannot figure out where some of these riders have all their legs? See that kid over there he has more Testosterone right now than I do!"

I went down to the Altanta Olympics and cheered him on. Waited for him at the finish and jumped the barriers to chat with him wearing some homemade white shirts with Canadian flags spray-painted on them...I said, "Mr. Bauer great ride, great attempt at bridging, what do you think?" He looked at me and said, "thanks, have you seen my girl-friend?"

I was like Huh? How would I know where his Gfriend was. Then he just politely rode away and I realized he was probably freak'n tired and the last thing he wanted to do was chat to me after that long ride. Jokes on me. Good guy, and I continually hear what a solid person he was. I have yet to hear he doped and in his new DS role he overtly denounces dopers.

Sorry for the blethering but what is your insight into the days when you raced at high levels vs today and all the extra 'in-race' communication and information riders have now? Do you think it takes the spontaneity out of racing? Do you think its necessary?

Cheers

NW

In terms of Bauer, well... he was The Man of his era. A one-day hard man that could tough it out in the mountains, and someone nobody wanted to have with them coming to the line. Sort of a neo-Eddy. He even rocked out on the track. I've written before how my father thought Criquelion dove into a too-small hole in 88 to avoid losing to him (this event was not brought up in the 'crash for bail' thread).

Everyone I know who knows the riders of that era, and ones who have worked with Bauer, have all been emphatic on his cleanliness. Apart from that I don't have anything personal to add. I really do think he was clean, but that's certainly nothing concrete.

As to radios, which is what I think you were talking about, that's an interesting topic. After racing I spent 5 years as a Directeur Sportif, and that has coloured my opinion, I'm sure.

As a DS it brings the operatic drama of bike racing to you. And that is a huge thing. A lot of cyclists aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, and if your job is to make sure your guys are garnering media exposure, then the radio is a blessing. There is a lot of action going on in the team car - race radio, rider radio, cell phone to other DSs, cell phone to support (feed zone, etc.), start throwing in live TV feeds and it can be a bit of ****show.

I personally think that the rider radios were a positive addition to the sport (much to my parent's chagrin - they hate them). To me, bike racing is a grand operatic sporting event with all the drama of a classic opera. Old grudges, new riders, sudden up and comers, rider's favorite courses, hometown area, etc. etc.

That coupled with the undeniable fact that cycling is a team sport makes the radios a plus for me. It allows a team to maximize its collective potential, and as a cycling team that's what pays the bills and ultimately develops riders. No one can win a race on their own (except Ballerini at Paris-Roubaix, that still sticks in my throat). Mind you, this also places a lot more responsibility on the DS. Suddenly being able to come up with tactical changes on the fly, responding to disaster, having a fluid strategy, understanding what the hell's going on, and who is capable of doing what - to say nothing about being able drive well - overrode the previous requirements of filling out forms and getting to the race on time (that's been a little simplified for this rant...).

So yeah, radios good, Bauer good. That's enough of me...
 
Jan 27, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
So yeah, radios good, Bauer good. That's enough of me...

Thank you for the words on Bauer...I also think Claude tanked that one.

I respectfully would suggest that your view is from the optics of a DS and if I were a DS I'd probably want the same as you. But, as a spectator I think it dumbs down the race and is way less exciting. I love the raw, innate, initiatives that riders have when they 'breakaway' and try to hold on to the finish. I also think it would remove a lot of those last minute 'catches' less than 10km from the finish, and, would have stopped all the tempo riding in the last 10 yrs of TdF's and other GTs.

Having to actually think and suddenly react when riding is the elegant and exciting part of Chess on wheels. IMO. I think this whole race radio issue has already been addressed here, so I too will stop. Cheers.

NW
 
Jul 29, 2010
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JMB, as former DS, what do you think of this? Radios on three riders: protected rider, road captain, and DS's choice. That still allows the DS's to dictate strategy, and also makes captain's job very important. Also would force riders to communicate on the road and stay cohesive and aware...

9 radios is too much. And all this talk of safety is rubbish, riders knew how to get down hills before radio as well...
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Neworld said:
Thank you for the words on Bauer...I also think Claude tanked that one.

I respectfully would suggest that your view is from the optics of a DS and if I were a DS I'd probably want the same as you. But, as a spectator I think it dumbs down the race and is way less exciting. I love the raw, innate, initiatives that riders have when they 'breakaway' and try to hold on to the finish. I also think it would remove a lot of those last minute 'catches' less than 10km from the finish, and, would have stopped all the tempo riding in the last 10 yrs of TdF's and other GTs.

Having to actually think and suddenly react when riding is the elegant and exciting part of Chess on wheels. IMO. I think this whole race radio issue has already been addressed here, so I too will stop. Cheers.

NW

Right on, NW.

I have to say I agree and disagree with you on the radio issue.

For decades riders and DSs have had a fair idea of break gaps, and have worked on the premise that a motivated field can gain 1' per 10km. The guys on the yellow Mavic bikes with chalkboards aren't just showing that info to the TV...

As to the spontenaeity and dynamism of racing, I would have to argue that the advent of the blood drugs have done SO much more damage to the scene than radios. We've become comfortable with the image of 10 team members setting hard tempo into retardedly hard climbs to preserve the leader.

That was never possible before. A team always had specific roles for their riders, and counted on them to do that. Suddenly you could stack up lead-out men with classics riders and have them punch it for 20+km up to, and into, a serious climb. Before that, it was a 'protect and deliver' mission into a big climb.

We may be in a 'chicken or egg' situation for now. Regardless, there are a lot of riders who either don't bother listening to the incessant info/orders on the radio, or actually pull their earbud. We've all seen a lot of that on the TV, the dangling earpiece...

Anyhow, my vote is for the UCI to clean up the sport (which they aren't willing to do), and to stop the constant bickering over what technological (non-physiological) thing to ban.

Drugs have ruined the sport, not technology.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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NashbarShorts said:
JMB, as former DS, what do you think of this? Radios on three riders: protected rider, road captain, and DS's choice. That still allows the DS's to dictate strategy, and also makes captain's job very important. Also would force riders to communicate on the road and stay cohesive and aware...

9 radios is too much. And all this talk of safety is rubbish, riders knew how to get down hills before radio as well...

I'm not sure how limiting the number of radios used per team would really change anything, particularly for those who are anti-radio.

If a radio-limited rule was in place, personally, I'd rather have the key domestiques radioed perhaps even more than the team leader. When it comes down to it, you need the support guys up to speed more than anyone. The key grunts and the key lead-out men (depending on the race or stage). If all goes well it's up to the team to get the leader to the crux, and after that it's up to him to do what he does best - win. Besides, the leader's usually pretty good at letting the team know what he needs on the road, and it's more of a domestique 'get your *** up here' enforced cohesion thing to make it happen.

I haven't thought a lot about it, but it sure makes me think. Who WOULD I radio if it was restricted?

I'll have to get back to you on that one...
 
Mar 17, 2009
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I was at Michael Barry & Camille McMillan's launch of Le Metier last month. In the Q&A MB was asked about radios and was emphatically against them. The reason he cited was that he felt that far from helping race safety they hampered it. As a hazard approached every rider had, almost simultaneously, their DS telling them to get up to the front of the peleton.

Personally, I have to agree, to a degree, with JMBeaushrimp regarding the relative damage done by EPO compared to radios. But, that said, I want them both gone.

Cycling is a team sport, as is football, but in football the manager can only talk directly to the riders before the match and at half-time. During the match he can shout from the touchline but that's it, radio earpieces are not allowed.

Before radios came on the scene a rider had to rely on their own tactical nous during the race. J-F Bernard famously decided to watch Urs Zimmerman in the 88 Giro, ignoring Breukink and Hampsten. Big mistake, but it was his mistake to make, not his DS's.

The DS should set the scene up at the team briefing. Once they're off, it's up to the teamleader and the Capitaine du Route to carry out those directions and adapt as the race evolves.

Cycling is not solely about the physically strongest rider winning. It is about the strongest overall winning. That includes the rider's ability to read a race. Argentin, Kelly, De Vlaeminck were all strong riders both physically and tactically, and rode accordingly.

Would Charly Mottet have won the 88 Lombardia if he'd been radioed up? Possibly not with Guimard nagging away in his ear to abandon his escape. Instead Mottet stuck his head down and timetrialled the 80km to the finish and won in style. Logic told Guimard it was a waste, Mottet's legs felt good enough to him to convince him it was possible. Result - Mottet won by almost 2 minutes!
 
Jan 27, 2010
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ultimobici said:
I was at Michael Barry ...QUOTE]

I agree. I am against Raceradios. What will we do when we have the technology to either give each other TV feed to cell phones while racing, or put Garmin-like comps on their bikes showing coloured dots where lead riders in the break are? Eventually, in ways we cannot predict, new technology will stagnate the sport by making it so predictable either riders won't be allowed to 'get-away' or 'leading' riders won't continue to stay in a break and just give up...amassing in the pack behind.

And yes dope has all but destroyed the sport, that's why watching the old footage is so cool (even if a few of them charged). Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm agains Phil and Paul S too. Had to throw that in there.

PS: does anyone have footage of the 1988 Worlds when Bauer lost by DQ?

NW
 
Jul 29, 2010
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The Bauer-Criquielon bangup can be seen on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze97yO8JpP8

Seems CLEAR to me (after watching it 20x) that Bauer started his sprint in too low a gear. He has to sit down to shift upshift. He definitely drifts right as he rises off his saddle and begins his sprint again. At that point he sees Criquielon on his right and sticks an elbow out to "close the door" a bit. Whether this is enough to cause a crash or Criquielon "dove", who knows. Can't imagine anyone would intentionally ride into the barriers, but..

I agree the "argument" for radios/safely is BS. Why didn't radios prevent the mass crashes on that wet descent in this year's Tour?

Also, if the rule was "3 radios per team", that means in the event of a hazard, immediately 1/3 of the peloton would be warned and would be shouting it out. You don't need an earbud in every ear to warn of hazards. (The most outspoken voice AGAINST radio bans seems to Bjarne Riis. His argument is "safety". Of course, that man has never lied about anything, so I have to take him at his word :p )

JMB, glad my idea made you think. Restricted radios would make the DS's job MORE tactical (who to mic today?). Also, would make the road captains roles more important.

I remember reading a CN.com blog (HTC rider or Rabo rider?), story was how it was ****ing rain all day, everybody in capes, DS tells all his riders to shed their capes b/c they're gonna cause a split up ahead. OK, great, you could accomplish same tactic w/ restricted rados, but it would be LESS easy. Mic'd riders would have to spread the word throughout their team. Instead of, "1-2-3, ok everybody now...off w/ your capes!", like marionettes on strings.

JMB, so did you ever ride for a big foreign team? Did you ever perform well at Corestates? Just trying to guess...
 
Jul 29, 2010
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ultimobici said:
PS: does anyone have footage of the 1988 Worlds when Bauer lost by DQ?

NW

Speaking of old footage, has anyone ever seen the footage of Lemond's first worlds (1983?) That is the one mondiale that I have never been able to find on Youtube...
 
Jun 20, 2009
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JMBeaushrimp said:
I never said that World's were my first exposure to doping in cycling. I didn't imply that, either.

Read your first post again my friend:

JMBeaushrimp said:
At my innagural World Championships I was asked by a star (who's photos were literally on my bedroom wall - I was only seventeen) if I "had a good program". I told him that no, our program sucks - I hated the national team coach and his training programs sucked. The Star looked at me like I was *** ...

It's a fair implication to draw that your first exposure was from this pro. Not saying it was, just that it is a fair implication.

Anyway, nice side-step, but you are going to need to pony up with some more info if you want to dispel the doubts ;)
 
NashbarShorts said:
...Seems CLEAR to me (after watching it 20x) that Bauer started his sprint in too low a gear. He has to sit down to shift upshift. He definitely drifts right as he rises off his saddle and begins his sprint again. At that point he sees Criquielon on his right and sticks an elbow out to "close the door" a bit. Whether this is enough to cause a crash or Criquielon "dove", who knows. Can't imagine anyone would intentionally ride into the barriers, but...

There was a bit of debate about this on another thread in the past. The "classic moments" one. I might even have linked to that clip, I can't remember.

My personal view - i.e. the one I like to promote because I'm a soppy romantic old duffer - is that Criq didn't dive and that Bauer's challenge sort of folded when he saw what happened to Criq. To me, it's like he already knows he can't win now even if he crosses the line first. So Fondriest walked home in the last few metres.

Like I said, though, it's just that I'm just soft on Bauer. ;)
 
Jul 6, 2010
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laziali said:
Read your first post again my friend:



It's a fair implication to draw that your first exposure was from this pro. Not saying it was, just that it is a fair implication.

Anyway, nice side-step, but you are going to need to pony up with some more info if you want to dispel the doubts ;)

You're trying really hard to convince yourself of something, I'm just not sure what.

You can't infer that WCs was my first exposure to doping from my post. I say nothing of my racing life prior to this incident, all it shows is that my public interpretation of 'program' was our team program and not 'doping program'.

Not sure what I'm 'side-stepping', and I certainly don't feel that I NEED to dispel your doubts - whatever they may be.