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Kreuziger going down?

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Jan 15, 2013
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Kreuziger to Orica is certainly notable from an optics point of view. We know they're all at it etc. etc., but what does the casual 'Anglo = clean' fan think of hiring an ex-Astana guy with Ferrari connections who got out of a passport case by the skin of his teeth?
 
May 26, 2010
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vedrafjord said:
Kreuziger to Orica is certainly notable from an optics point of view. We know they're all at it etc. etc., but what does the casual 'Anglo = clean' fan think of hiring an ex-Astana guy with Ferrari connections who got out of a passport case by the skin of his teeth?
Scratch Orica and you'll see a team run full of ex dopers.
 
Jan 15, 2013
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Well yeah, as you would with Garmin, or Sky circa 2012. My point is a bunch of teams (and Fat Pat) have sold the 'Anglo = clean' narrative to the Cycling Weekly and Bike Radar readers, to the 100,000 people who went up Box Hill yesterday, to the guy I saw cycling around Lucan Demesne on a Pinarello in full Sky kit last weekend. If those teams start signing guys who not only rode for teams with extensive rap sheets, but were personally sanctioned (or almost sanctioned), at what point does it become an image problem for the casual fan?
 
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vedrafjord said:
Well yeah, as you would with Garmin, or Sky circa 2012. My point is a bunch of teams (and Fat Pat) have sold the 'Anglo = clean' narrative to the Cycling Weekly and Bike Radar readers, to the 100,000 people who went up Box Hill yesterday, to the guy I saw cycling around Lucan Demesne on a Pinarello in full Sky kit last weekend. If those teams start signing guys who not only rode for teams with extensive rap sheets, but were personally sanctioned (or almost sanctioned), at what point does it become an image problem for the casual fan?

I would say its already a problem, but they seem to rationalise it away.

Astana riders should be toxic in that narrative, but Sky got away with doing so with Landa, so why should OBE not profit ?
 
May 26, 2010
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vedrafjord said:
Well yeah, as you would with Garmin, or Sky circa 2012. My point is a bunch of teams (and Fat Pat) have sold the 'Anglo = clean' narrative to the Cycling Weekly and Bike Radar readers, to the 100,000 people who went up Box Hill yesterday, to the guy I saw cycling around Lucan Demesne on a Pinarello in full Sky kit last weekend. If those teams start signing guys who not only rode for teams with extensive rap sheets, but were personally sanctioned (or almost sanctioned), at what point does it become an image problem for the casual fan?
I think it became a problem not so much for the casual fan* but for sponsors. Companies really dont want to touch the sport and it appears only those company owners who have love for the sport stick with it. Others find less toxic things to spend their advertising/sponsorship budgets on. Look how many bike manufacturers became major team sponsors. Sign of the toxicity of the sport.


*Casual fans either know the sport is a cesspit or dont give a fig about the doping/cheating.

Average person in the street thinks the sports is racked by doping.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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movingtarget said:
[I can't see him making the top 10 in this race.
:rolleyes: I'm laughing.
One of those riders. His form is all over the place. He wins Amstel and rides better than Contador in the 2013 Tour and then nothing.
He was 3rd at Tirreno 2014 and was actually very good there, even would win stage from the attack if he wasn't told to wait for Contador who wanted win that day. He was 8th at FW, 7th at LBL, 8th at TdS 2014, then he couldn't race most of that season. In 2015 11th at Strade Bianche, 11th at FW, 5th at LBL. He lacked training for mountains that year. 2015 was his third year but for me troubles he had are understandable reason - or do you think that to stay totally calm and maintain best shape would be normal reaction when threat of 4 year ban is upon you? This year he was 10th at Tour which is again decent. He had no chance to race for result as a leader other than Ardennes (where he was decent, very strong t LBL) and Vuelta a Andalucia (which was his first race of the season so he was cold yet he performed decent against guys who were already racing mostly). So why nothing?
At Ardennes he has always got into decent form, so I don't get why you say his form is all over the place.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
movingtarget said:
[I can't see him making the top 10 in this race.
:rolleyes: I'm laughing.
One of those riders. His form is all over the place. He wins Amstel and rides better than Contador in the 2013 Tour and then nothing.
He was 3rd at Tirreno 2014 and was actually very good there, even would win stage from the attack if he wasn't told to wait for Contador who wanted win that day. He was 8th at FW, 7th at LBL, 8th at TdS 2014, then he couldn't race most of that season. In 2015 11th at Strade Bianche, 11th at FW, 5th at LBL. He lacked training for mountains that year. 2015 was his third year but for me troubles he had are understandable reason - or do you think that to stay totally calm and maintain best shape would be normal reaction when threat of 4 year ban is upon you? This year he was 10th at Tour which is again decent. He had no chance to race for result as a leader other than Ardennes (where he was decent, very strong t LBL) and Vuelta a Andalucia (which was his first race of the season so he was cold yet he performed decent against guys who were already racing mostly). So why nothing?
At Ardennes he has always got into decent form, so I don't get why you say his form is all over the place.
Without the break on the last stage he wouldn't have made it but there you go. Other teams did not seem too interested in protecting their positions in the top 10 at that stage all except for the top 5 or 6 and then the chase was switched off. It was a weird stage that one. Wet weather played a part of course but hats off to Kreuziger to keep trying anyway.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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movingtarget said:
Kokoso said:
movingtarget said:
[I can't see him making the top 10 in this race.
:rolleyes: I'm laughing.
One of those riders. His form is all over the place. He wins Amstel and rides better than Contador in the 2013 Tour and then nothing.
He was 3rd at Tirreno 2014 and was actually very good there, even would win stage from the attack if he wasn't told to wait for Contador who wanted win that day. He was 8th at FW, 7th at LBL, 8th at TdS 2014, then he couldn't race most of that season. In 2015 11th at Strade Bianche, 11th at FW, 5th at LBL. He lacked training for mountains that year. 2015 was his third year but for me troubles he had are understandable reason - or do you think that to stay totally calm and maintain best shape would be normal reaction when threat of 4 year ban is upon you? This year he was 10th at Tour which is again decent. He had no chance to race for result as a leader other than Ardennes (where he was decent, very strong t LBL) and Vuelta a Andalucia (which was his first race of the season so he was cold yet he performed decent against guys who were already racing mostly). So why nothing?
At Ardennes he has always got into decent form, so I don't get why you say his form is all over the place.
Without the break on the last stage he wouldn't have made it but there you go. Other teams did not seem too interested in protecting their positions in the top 10 at that stage all except for the top 5 or 6 and then the chase was switched off. It was a weird stage that one. Wet weather played a part of course but hats off to Kreuziger to keep trying anyway.
Is the race we are talking about really Tour de France 2016? Becuase there he would get into top ten even without break because Mollema and Aru totally blowed. And he would even be one? place higher if not for jury decision on the last stage.
Other teams didn't seem to protect their positions in top ten? Have you seen Astana pulling really hard? Rodriguez on attack? Probably you haven't seen the stage. Other than GC leaders didn't survive Astana pace hence there were no other teams trying to protect their positions. Sweet Jesus...
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
movingtarget said:
Kokoso said:
movingtarget said:
[I can't see him making the top 10 in this race.
:rolleyes: I'm laughing.
One of those riders. His form is all over the place. He wins Amstel and rides better than Contador in the 2013 Tour and then nothing.
He was 3rd at Tirreno 2014 and was actually very good there, even would win stage from the attack if he wasn't told to wait for Contador who wanted win that day. He was 8th at FW, 7th at LBL, 8th at TdS 2014, then he couldn't race most of that season. In 2015 11th at Strade Bianche, 11th at FW, 5th at LBL. He lacked training for mountains that year. 2015 was his third year but for me troubles he had are understandable reason - or do you think that to stay totally calm and maintain best shape would be normal reaction when threat of 4 year ban is upon you? This year he was 10th at Tour which is again decent. He had no chance to race for result as a leader other than Ardennes (where he was decent, very strong t LBL) and Vuelta a Andalucia (which was his first race of the season so he was cold yet he performed decent against guys who were already racing mostly). So why nothing?
At Ardennes he has always got into decent form, so I don't get why you say his form is all over the place.
Without the break on the last stage he wouldn't have made it but there you go. Other teams did not seem too interested in protecting their positions in the top 10 at that stage all except for the top 5 or 6 and then the chase was switched off. It was a weird stage that one. Wet weather played a part of course but hats off to Kreuziger to keep trying anyway.
Is the race we are talking about really Tour de France 2016? Becuase there he would get into top ten even without break because Mollema and Aru totally blowed. And he would even be one? place higher if not for jury decision on the last stage.
Other teams didn't seem to protect their positions in top ten? Have you seen Astana pulling really hard? Rodriguez on attack? Probably you haven't seen the stage. Other than GC leaders didn't survive Astana pace hence there were no other teams trying to protect their positions. Sweet Jesus...
I saw the stage. Teams did not pull hard for a long time. I just said Kreuziger rode a good stage. He deserved his top 10. But Tinkoff seemed to be in disarray from the start of the race. The whole business with Contador seemed to throw them into chaos. Kreuziger will do better at Orica if he is in good form.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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movingtarget said:
Without the break on the last stage he wouldn't have made it but there you go. Other teams did not seem too interested in protecting their positions in the top 10 at that stage all except for the top 5 or 6 and then the chase was switched off.
Kreuziger got only in front of Aru and Mollema in the GC, other defended their positions, so what's your point exactly?
Any why do you say his form was all over the place?
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
movingtarget said:
Without the break on the last stage he wouldn't have made it but there you go. Other teams did not seem too interested in protecting their positions in the top 10 at that stage all except for the top 5 or 6 and then the chase was switched off.
Kreuziger got only in front of Aru and Mollema in the GC, other defended their positions, so what's your point exactly?
Any why do you say his form was all over the place?
Maybe I expected better but you are right. It was after his ban and some of his results were better than I remembered. His Tour ride was good even better when you consider what was happening at Tinkoff but I think he is one of those riders who were good when they were younger and you expected them to be on the podium by now but it does not always work that way. If Contador had dropped out of the race earlier like he should have Kreuziger may have finished even higher up the GC. I have a feeling that Orica won't retain both Yates brothers and Chaves for too long because bigger teams will offer bigger money so Kreuziger should get opportunities.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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movingtarget said:
Maybe I expected better but you are right. It was after his ban and some of his results were better than I remembered. His Tour ride was good even better when you consider what was happening at Tinkoff but I think he is one of those riders who were good when they were younger and you expected them to be on the podium by now but it does not always work that way. If Contador had dropped out of the race earlier like he should have Kreuziger may have finished even higher up the GC. I have a feeling that Orica won't retain both Yates brothers and Chaves for too long because bigger teams will offer bigger money so Kreuziger should get opportunities.
I dare to say it mostly doesn't work that way. Most of young talented riders end nowhere. Kreuziger on the other hand has his fair share of succeseses.
I think he was held down mainly unknown evil in case of his doping allegations. I think he could do very, very well at 2014 Tour, he had very good shape at T-A that year. Other factor stopping him to achieve some more successes was team orders/Contador. He had little chances to race for himself. At least he could have some stage wins but I suspect he was never allowed to go for one. If he was in different team where there was, say, more relaxed atmosphere, he would have more successes.
 

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