LA Perjury Count

[AnythingButKestrel]

If they said what *their lawyers claim* they said to the GJ, we're up to at least three cases of possible perjury:

The Good Dr. Lim

Stephanie McIlvain - a readily demonstrable lie

and...

Popo

After they get done with LA, it's hard to believe that *somebody* isn't going to get charged with perjury.

Am I the only one that finds this absolutely astounding? Usually when its either "tell the truth or prepare for a vacation at Club Fed(TM)," most people wise up and blab. Normally, the only organizations that get these types of "favors" done for them before a grand jury are the mafia and drug cartels. It makes you wonder what the carrot (or the stick) must be that a felony conviction and prison time is better than the truth.

What on earth do these people think is going to happen to them?

Race Radio? Any insight?

And is grand jury testimony secret forever, or is it released eventually? I really would love to know what's actually being said before the GJ as opposed to the lawyers' press releases.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

And is grand jury testimony secret forever, or is it released eventually? I really would love to know what's actually being said before the GJ as opposed to the lawyers' press releases.

I think that's the most important point.

Seeing what a nasty piece of work The Sociopath is I really don't think anyone is going to waltz out of the GJ and say "I admitted I saw Lance dope"....

They might even be instructed to say something vaguely pro-Sociopath, who knows?

But if people are lying under threat of jailtime then you have to ask worrying questions about The Sociopath's cancerous influence.

 

[Oldman]

If they said what *their lawyers claim* they said to the GJ, we're up to at least three cases of possible perjury:

The Good Dr. Kim

Stephanie McIlvain - a readily demonstrable lie

and...

Popo

After they get done with LA, it's hard to believe that *somebody* isn't going to get charged with perjury.

Am I the only one that finds this absolutely astounding? Usually when its either "tell the truth or prepare for a vacation at Club Fed(TM)," most people wise up and blab. Normally, the only organizations that get these types of "favors" done for them before a grand jury are the mafia and drug cartels. It makes you wonder what the carrot (or the stick) must be that a felony conviction and prison time is better than the truth.

What on earth do these people think is going to happen to them?

Race Radio? Any insight?

And is grand jury testimony secret forever, or is it released eventually? I really would love to know what's actually being said before the GJ as opposed to the lawyers' press releases.

Because we don't know their individual testimony and how it relates to the case it's premature to draw any conclusions of perjury; particularly not knowing the end target(s) of the investigation. Each of them may have said what they believed (or wanted to believe) to get out of confirming a crime. It's the details and contradictions of witness testimony that could provide substance to the case and lead to a substantive charge.
If these folks honestly believe something they likely won't be charged with perjury. As other forum folks have pointed out, without other evidence to contradict the testimony it is what it is. Public pronouncements of what witnesses are saying shouldn't be totally discounted but it's too early to say what it means. LA benefits publicly from positive spin; that much is true.

 

[Benotti69]

But if people are lying under threat of jailtime then you have to ask worrying questions about The Sociopath's cancerous influence.

they must have witnessed it in his maddest moments to put the fear of Pharmastrong's retribution over time behind bars

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

Mcilvan is the one that has me baffled. She's plainly on record as stating the opposite. How do you get of of jail free on THAT one?

 

[miloman]

If indeed they are lying, I hope we aren't seeing a domino effect in that so many are "perjuring themselves" that subsequent witnesses wont go on record and tell the truth for fear of being the only ones to do so, and getting hammered for it.

 

[buckwheat]

If indeed they are lying, I hope we aren't seeing a domino effect in that so many are "perjuring themselves" that subsequent witnesses wont go on record and tell the truth for fear of being the only ones to do so, and getting hammered for it.

I'm thinking the DZ truth/domino fell, and the rest is history. JV and DZ (haters) were instrumental in the whole thing going forward.

I don't see Jawge lying either.

 

[scribe]

Mcilvan is the one that has me baffled. She's plainly on record as stating the opposite. How do you get of of jail free on THAT one?

Plead the 5th during your testimony. They give you immunity, bingo. Out of jail card.

 

[python]

being thus far the only non-american interviewed and named (that we know of) popo’s case is interesting…

he has little, ok lets say less, to fear from the us justice system even if he perjured himself. it’s obvious that novi hadn’t had as much leverage over popo as he had over mcI or hamilton. so by calling him, i think novi fired an opportunistic shot in the general direction of his target - ‘may be I can learn something new and bounce some evidence off popo…why not’.

what’s behind it ?

novi may have had other aims. one could be to see if and how la influences other witnesses to coordinate their stories. another could be just to see popo’s reaction as he could have chosen to ignore the subpoena. (giving to suspicions that he had something to hide and giving novi a legit weapon to intensify the international pressure ). Yet another reason could have been just a message to other potential foreign witnesses of his determination.

 

[JRTinMA]

being thus far the only non-american interviewed and named (that we know of) popo’s case is interesting…

he has little, ok lets say less, to fear from the us justice system even if he perjured himself. it’s obvious that novi hadn’t had as much leverage over popo as he had over mcI or hamilton. so by calling him, i think novi fired an opportunistic shot in the general direction of his target - ‘may be I can learn something new and bounce some evidence off popo…why not’.

what’s behind it ?

novi may have had other aims. one could be to see if and how la influences other witnesses to coordinate their stories. another could be just to see popo’s reaction as he could have chosen to ignore the subpoena. (giving to suspicions that he had something to hide and giving novi a legit weapon to intensify the international pressure ). Yet another reason could have been just a message to other potential foreign witnesses of his determination.

Testimony is testimony though and if he came in and upheld omerta as we all know he probably did, its another piece the GJ will have to sift through. Calling somebody just to send a signal seems pretty bush league, based on the team LA has put together and the ones who will happily **** all over LA, Novi doesn't need to be sending signals. Of course, the problem with all of this is; what popo's lawyer says may or may not have anything to do with the facts.

 

[BotanyBay]

2¢

What on earth do these people think is going to happen to them?

.....

And is grand jury testimony secret forever, or is it released eventually? I really would love to know what's actually being said before the GJ as opposed to the lawyers' press releases.

It's important to point-out that not even their attorneys are allowed inside the Grand Jury chamber. It is total secrecy. So it is entirely possible that these witnesses are intentionally duping Lance. In McIlvain's case, she has a job with Oakley. I'd imagine she wants to keep that job as long as possible. Attorneys might not be able to lie to a judge or jury, but they OFTEN lie to the media.

If I were one of the witnesses, and I'd seen the doping going on, I would have learned a lesson from watching Tammy Thomas, etc. I'd tell the truth and then have my lawyer announce publicly that I testified about never hearing or seeing a thing. I'd let Lance get comfy and off my back. He has a tendency to hold grudges and do devious things to people under the table (without their ever knowing about it). Strategy: Make Lance think Omerta was upheld.

Now, do I think everyone is going to be smart enough not to lie? Nope. I also think we'll see some perjury charges go down. I'm just not willing to guess who lied and who told the truth.

And I do not believe that GJ testimony is secret forever. It all comes out eventually.

 

[Darryl Webster]

As I see It Popo can keep up the "omerta" with little fear of being called to account but if his testimony in doing so had many clear contradictons to others it shows those contradictions are were Novi needs to be looking.
It`s a bit of a "mind xxxx" realy as to what a person might choose to do...tell the truth ( if of consiounce)and potentialy set yourself free and, as a minow in the case not much to lose by doing so or lie and be forced to live with it and the uncertainty that comes from living a lie.

 

[Race Radio]

It is common for someone to give a press release that is 100% different from what he/she has said to the GJ. It is not common for GJ testimony to be leaked and as we found out in BALCO those that do the leaking face some serious trouble.

I would assume that Steph was a bit suprised during her testimony with the amount of evidence there is that she was not truthful in the SCA case. We assume that we have heard all the tapes and statements.....we have not. Did Steph maintain the lie for 7 hours? I highly doubt it.

Lim, George, VDV, Tyler, I think we can assume that they were truthful. Jeff Spencer, Kevin Livingston.....who knows? Given the way that Kevin tried to pretend he was not called to testify I think he may have been truthful.

A key thing to remember. Any good Lawyer will tell you the same thing DO NOT lie to the Feds. Maybe one guy will ignore this and lie but will 8? Don't think so.

Popo? He can just back to Italy and not come back to the US. Italy is not so bad

 

[BotanyBay]

As I see It Popo can keep up the "omerta" with little fear of being called to account but if his testimony in doing so had many clear contradictons to others it shows those contradictions are were Novi needs to be looking.
It`s a bit of a "mind xxxx" realy as to what a person might choose to do...tell the truth ( if of consiounce)and potentialy set yourself free and, as a minow in the case not much to lose by doing so or lie and be forced to live with it and the uncertainty that comes from living a lie.

Yeah, they're not gonna come after Popo in Europe for perjury. I'm sure Lance's attorney sat down with him in Austin and gave him a bit of a lesson about how the US legal system works. Heck, they might have paid to bring him to the USA on purpose, hoping that Novitsky would serve him.

 

[BotanyBay]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...stimony+kept+secret?&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure (Rule 6) E6:

"Records, orders, and subpoenas relating to grand-jury proceedings must be kept under seal to the extent and as long as necessary to prevent the unauthorized disclosure of a matter occurring before a grand jury."

I imagine that once the feds are finished with everyone and they have no interest in indicting any more people, the rules of secrecy no longer apply?

 

[BroDeal]

From what I have seen, McIlvain strategy seems to be to make herself unusable as a witness. So aside from the sob story about alcohol and medication, I think she probably answered many questions in a wishy washy sometimes contradictory manner. Her lawyer could have advised her to never use a yes or no response to anything but the simplest of questions.

So when asked about whether she heard LA say that he had used EPO, HGH, steroids, etc. She could have responded with a partial confirmation, but in a manner so convoluted and so unsure or the past that the prosecutor would not feel good about putting her on the stand in a trial.

Popo has little to fear.

Lim is an interesting case. What he might do depends on who aside from FLandis knows anything. If there are potential witnesses apart from Landis then he would be taking a big risk by relying on them to keep quiet. He is getting paid a lot of money and his association with LA could be worth much more in the future if he can parlay the relationship into a coaching service like Chris Comical. There is a serious incentive for him to keep quiet if possible.

 

[BotanyBay]

From what I have seen, McIlvain strategy seems to be to make herself unusable as a witness.

She's certainly made it clear that she just wants to go home and not be part of this anymore. Her situation reminds me of "Mitch McDeere" from that John Grisham's novel "The Firm" (Tom Cruise's charcter from the film). As far as Oakley goes, she's now a ship that will never see port.

 

[BotanyBay]

Kim is an interesting case. What he might do depends on who aside from FLandis knows anything. If there are potential witnesses apart from Landis then he would be taking a big risk by relying on them to keep quiet.

Do you mean Allen Lim?

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

For everybody that thinks what Lance is/was up to is "no big deal" and not worth prosecuting, I hope that they look at what's going on with the GJ testimony and realize just what a huge deal it is. There's no way you can have this kind of dichotomy going on with a federal investigation if something wasn't VERY, VERY WRONG going on behind the curtain.

What really makes me want to puke is the silence (if not quiet cooperation) on the part of LA's sponsors during this. If Oakley wants to have any credibility at all, they should have said, "we're backing Stephanie, and she'll have a job no matter what the truth is. We request that she step before the GJ and tell it like it is." Instead, it's a stomach-churning blend of thundering silence on the part of corporate HQ, followed up with lies, obfuscation, and marketing hype as usual. Just as if nothing were happening at all...

It looks like Trek did a minor retreat in the fall from LA, but are back to hyping the hell out of him again. Sad....

P.S. Fixed the Lim/Kim typo.

 

[BroDeal]

Do you mean Allen Lim?

Yeah, I fat fingered the 'K'. I just edited the post.

 

[BotanyBay]

What really makes me want to puke is the silence (if not quiet cooperation) on the part of LA's sponsors during this. If Oakley wants to have any credibility at all, they should have said, "we're backing Stephanie, and she'll have a job no matter what the truth is..

Oakley was his only corporate "friend" after his diagnosis. They actually added Lance as an employee so that he could have health insurance after Cofidis dumped his ***. I think we can assume that their CEO is an "invested" friend of Lance. They're in too deep now to back down and go turncoat on him.

There is a saying in the marketing field: "Be honest or your brand will suffer"
Oakley can learn this the easy way or the hard way.

And you're right, it is sick how they've essentially forced McIlvaine to be in the middle of this disgusting mess. I'm willing to bet that there is just a cool, sick, disturbing silence between them and her back at Oakley HQ in Orange County CA. I doubt they include her in any of the discussions that they're having about this.

In the end, I hope she eventually files a whistleblower lawsuit against them. I'm willing to bet that she's thought long and hard about it.

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

Nissan Leaf replaces Lance Armstrong with bear

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20016024-71.html

Maybe Nissan "gets" it...?

==============================
Wait a minute, Stephanie McIlvain is now an *ex* Oakley employee?

http://redkiteprayer.com/?tag=stephanie-mcilvain

Despite the existence of an audio tape made my Greg LeMond in which Stephanie McIlvain reveals that she did hear Armstrong admit to using performance-enhancing drugs, the former Oakley employee—whose husband is Oakley’s VP of sports marketing—testified to a grand jury that she had no knowledge of Armstrong’s use of drugs or that she heard him admit to using them during a meeting with doctors at which Frankie and Betsy Andreu were present and which they claim she was present as well. One wonders what other questions she was asked besides those two; presumably it shouldn’t take seven hours on the witness stand to say “no” twice. While McIlvain has certainly protected Oakley’s (and by extension, Armstrong’s) interests, investigator Jeff Novitzky has secured perjury convictions against athletes who lied to a grand jury.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Lots of talk about Oakley and McIlvain. Oakley can do whatever they want, and suck up their market-share. Stephanie may be in trouble, probably based on poor advice, but that really doesn't matter either.

Allan Lim may be the 'nuts' in this. He's obviously worked with lots of riders, and has had his hand in lots of questionable dealings. Who thinks that he'll tell a good story? I'd love to hear who he's been 'helping'...

 

[Benotti69]

Oakley was his only corporate "friend" after his diagnosis. They actually added Lance as an employee so that he could have health insurance after Cofidis dumped his ***. I think we can assume that their CEO is an "invested" friend of Lance. They're in too deep now to back down and go turncoat on him.

There is a saying in the marketing field: "Be honest or your brand will suffer"
Oakley can learn this the easy way or the hard way.

And you're right, it is sick how they've essentially forced McIlvaine to be in the middle of this disgusting mess. I'm willing to bet that there is just a cool, sick, disturbing silence between them and her back at Oakley HQ in Orange County CA. I doubt they include her in any of the discussions that they're having about this.

In the end, I hope she eventually files a whistleblower lawsuit against them. I'm willing to bet that she's thought long and hard about it.

There is still the myth that Cofidis dumped Armstrong

 

[Oldman]

It's important to point-out that not even their attorneys are allowed inside the Grand Jury chamber. It is total secrecy. So it is entirely possible that these witnesses are intentionally duping Lance. In McIlvain's case, she has a job with Oakley. I'd imagine she wants to keep that job as long as possible. Attorneys might not be able to lie to a judge or jury, but they OFTEN lie to the media.

If I were one of the witnesses, and I'd seen the doping going on, I would have learned a lesson from watching Tammy Thomas, etc. I'd tell the truth and then have my lawyer announce publicly that I testified about never hearing or seeing a thing. I'd let Lance get comfy and off my back. He has a tendency to hold grudges and do devious things to people under the table (without their ever knowing about it). Strategy: Make Lance think Omerta was upheld.

Now, do I think everyone is going to be smart enough not to lie? Nope. I also think we'll see some perjury charges go down. I'm just not willing to guess who lied and who told the truth.

And I do not believe that GJ testimony is secret forever. It all comes out eventually.

It's encouraging to see forum folks considering the complexity of this case. You can be a fan or not but the uncertainty factor of this discussion shows people aren't merely ranting about their desired outcome of the case.