La Vuelta: Where Miracles Really Do Occur

[Moose McKnuckles]

Like Aliens series, the Vuelta deserves to be watched, but not believed.

 

["Jeff"]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.

 

[Bronstein]

[quote=""Jeff"":2xqlt8u7]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.[/quote]

What thing?

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":mkj16ozc]I dont know how many times I need to repeat this. This is always been the case in the Vuelta. ALWAYS.

Your point seems to be that there have been many surprising performances in the Vuelta, most of them by non-dopers, therefore it’s unfair to list Dumoulin with surprising performances by riders who have either tested positive or are suspicious. The problem I have with this is a) most of these surprising performances you list are not nearly as hard to understand as Dumoulin’s (he hasn’t had lots of previous experience in GTs, and he’s not just going to finish in the top 10--which often happens through luck, getting in a break--but almost certainly in the top 2); and b) every single one of the riders you listed competed before the blood doping era. GTs were raced very differently then.

I’ve listed Dumoulin’s performance with other surprising ones in the Vuelta during the same era. If you think you can find other surprising performances in this era by riders who are not suspicious, please list them.[/quote]This is a cup of salty tears.

Just like with Belgian announcer Michel Wuyts. He could not have been more happier when he found out Aru was just 3 seconds behind in the GC. He was already afraid Dumoulin was going to win the Vuelta. He even had to be corrected by his partner Jose de Cauwer a couple of times who is one of the best in my opinion.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re:

Don't forget Jalabert in 1995.

I think he is the biggest gainer. He started as a sprinter and suddenly he was climbing with the best. Probably one of the best respnders.

 

[SeriousSam]

Wait, Jeff isn't trolling? He's actually serious that Climbing Tom shouldn't be lumped in with the Dawg, Cobo and Horner?

 

[Benotti69]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.[/quote]

This is his 3rd GT and no one, not even his team, had him down to do a performance like this. Check the number on his back, 174, not the leader of the team. Yeah Dumoulin is pulling a miracle here that no one predicted.

 

["Jeff"]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.

This is his 3rd GT and no one, not even his team, had him down to do a performance like this. Check the number on his back, 174, not the leader of the team. Yeah Dumoulin is pulling a miracle here that no one predicted.[/quote]Yes kinda agree.

You just post to post ? It seems like that. I wished you were my postman. I would get all my letters.

 

[Benotti69]

[quote=""Jeff"":1278p9em]
You just post to post ? It seems like that. I wished you were my postman. I would get all my letters.[/quote]

They would be clean letters..

 

[Pippo_San]

Right after the bomb. Orgasmic.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re: Re:

Wait, Jeff isn't trolling? He's actually serious that Climbing Tom shouldn't be lumped in with the Dawg, Cobo and Horner?

We all have our favourites, if JRod had timetrialled like Dumoulin yesterday I'd have been tempted to look the other way too

This is his 3rd GT and no one, not even his team, had him down to do a performance like this. Check the number on his back, 174, not the leader of the team. Yeah Dumoulin is pulling a miracle here that no one predicted.

Miracle Tom is dreaming big and this Vuelta has been one hell of a race (in sorts), a (likely) GT winner who was never seen as a contender? how could Dumoulin not proudly take his place in this thread?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":2qdv83br]I dont know how many times I need to repeat this. This is always been the case in the Vuelta. ALWAYS.

Your point seems to be that there have been many surprising performances in the Vuelta, most of them by non-dopers, therefore it’s unfair to list Dumoulin with surprising performances by riders who have either tested positive or are suspicious. The problem I have with this is a) most of these surprising performances you list are not nearly as hard to understand as Dumoulin’s (he hasn’t had lots of previous experience in GTs, and he’s not just going to finish in the top 10--which often happens through luck, getting in a break--but almost certainly in the top 2); and b) every single one of the riders you listed competed before the blood doping era. GTs were raced very differently then.

I’ve listed Dumoulin’s performance with other surprising ones in the Vuelta during the same era. If you think you can find other surprising performances in this era by riders who are not suspicious, please list them.[/quote]This is a cup of salty tears.

Just like with Belgian announcer Michel Wuyts. He could not have been more happier when he found out Aru was just 3 seconds behind in the GC. He was already afraid Dumoulin was going to win the Vuelta. He even had to be corrected by his partner Jose de Cauwer a couple of times who is one of the best in my opinion.[/quote]

So you can't then?

 

[42x16ss]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.[/quote]
You do know that Cobo won two stages and the overall at Pais Vasco back in 2007 don't you?

 

[Archibald]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.

This is his 3rd GT and no one, not even his team, had him down to do a performance like this. Check the number on his back, 174, not the leader of the team. Yeah Dumoulin is pulling a miracle here that no one predicted.[/quote]
Reckon I heard something like this before... in 2011...

 

[42x16ss]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.

This is his 3rd GT and no one, not even his team, had him down to do a performance like this. Check the number on his back, 174, not the leader of the team. Yeah Dumoulin is pulling a miracle here that no one predicted.

Reckon I heard something like this before... in 2011...[/quote]
But, but, but, that guy won the Atomic Jock Race!

 

["Jeff"]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.

You do know that Cobo won two stages and the overall at Pais Vasco back in 2007 don't you? [/quote]I remember him finishing 116th in the Giro.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

I remember once looking at the results of the 1996 Vuelta, the last GT where you could shoot up to high heaven before the party poopers at UCI put in the 50% rule. In 4th and 5th place came Roberti Pistore and Stefano Faustini. Who? Yeah exactly, never heard from again after that race.

Must be something in the air over there.

maybe Mr. 65 and 66% (or so...)

 

[burning]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.

You do know that Cobo won two stages and the overall at Pais Vasco back in 2007 don't you? [/quote]I remember him finishing 116th in the Giro.[/quote]

search.php?keywords=cobo&t=13803&sf=msgonly

People were mentioning Cobo as a legit darkhorse BEFORE vuelta and LS explained whole stuff much better than I could ever do:

Cobo's psychological problems play into that a lot. He was not happy at Caisse d'Epargne in 2010 and they didn't really know how to handle him. They only took him on with the cut price because of the Geox collapse and pressure to have the Vuelta winner at the main Spanish team. He for his part didn't deal well with performance expectations and by most accounts was happier with the pressure off. That Vuelta had the perfect storm of factors for him - he had a few performances early season but had had few race days in the early summer, he had good form coming in; Menchov lost a lot of stupid time early on giving him the opportunity to ride for himself; a number of pre-race favourites underperformed (Antón, Scarponi, Rodríguez, Nibali), and his main competition was an even bigger shock transformer than him, hence the team clipped his wings to favour a more proven commodity; had Wiggins lost a bit of time earlier in the race like Menchov, Sky may have given Froome more freedom and Cobo would never have won; Menchov was arguably the strongest in week 3, but spent the whole time domestiquing for Cobo (though Froome did discover a whole new level of skills like sprinting for bonus seconds late in the race); a bit of a tame finale to the race in terms of parcours meaning Froome's opportunities to take the time back once Wiggins finally dropped away were limited; the last MTF being in his home region in front of his home fans (seriously, I was there on Peña Cabarga, it was over 35º that day, and there were lunatics in full furry bison costumes to cheer him on). He's still the only wildcard winner of a GT since the ProTour began, right?

Sure, he's shady, his performances vary wildly, he's put in some very suspect performances and has had connections to dubious teams in the past (and present) but El Bisonte de la Pesa is one of those guys where there are more factors at play that making a definitive judgement of his talent level, how much was his ability and how much was doping, is nigh on impossible. His Hautacam climb with Piepoli is not what I expect of a clean cyclist, but then I would expect an even moderately talented clean cyclist to be able to cope better in the péloton than Cobo did in 2010 with Caisse. From his junior records I think we can probably surmise Cobo is at least a moderately talented cyclist, and therefore think there was more to differentiate 2010 Cobo from 2011 Cobo than "clean Bisonte/dirty Bisonte".

 

["Jeff"]

While certainly surprising Vuelta-winners, both Horner and Cobo were proven climbers a long time before their Vuelta wins. Their performances were a lot less surprising than what Dumoulin has managed this year. I cannot see why Dumoulin's miracle performance doesn't belong in this thread.

Who says he's doesnt belong in a thread about Vuelta miracles.
Why were only Cobo, Mosquera and Horner listed, together with TD.
Dumoulin is just 24 years old. This will probably be his 3rd full GT. Kinda unfair to compare him to people who had a decade to prove themselves ''as climber''.
Cobo was not a proven climber. He was able to climb because of one thing.

You do know that Cobo won two stages and the overall at Pais Vasco back in 2007 don't you?

I remember him finishing 116th in the Giro.[/quote]

search.php?keywords=cobo&t=13803&sf=msgonly

People were mentioning Cobo as a legit darkhorse BEFORE vuelta and LS explained whole stuff much better than I could ever do:

[/quote]
Yes but you missed the point. That's okay because I understand its getting a little complex.

Nobody needs to enlighten me on Cobo.

 

[staubsauger]

Re: Re:

I remember once looking at the results of the 1996 Vuelta, the last GT where you could shoot up to high heaven before the party poopers at UCI put in the 50% rule. In 4th and 5th place came Roberti Pistore and Stefano Faustini. Who? Yeah exactly, never heard from again after that race.

Must be something in the air over there.

maybe Mr. 65 and 66% (or so...)

Faustini is a dentist nowadays. Although he won some stages at Valle de Aosta that Vuelta top 10 seems to be his only further remarkable result as a pro.

Pistore is pretty hilarious. He placed sixth at the Vuelta as a neo-pro in 1995 and was fourth in 1996. Arguably he was a decent talent and about to become a new Italian gc contender. Instead he disappeared one year later when the hematocrit rule was introduced and retired in 1999. As soon as the Epo test came up.

Edith says that Faustini actually was 7th at he 1996 Giro as well. Right before Shefer, Robin and Eugeni Berzin.
He basically had the year of his life. ^^

 

[dpm1991]

Faustini indeed was 7th in '96 Giro. Some good names are behind him: Buenahora, Berzin, Robin, Zberg, Lanfranchi, Poulnikov....
http://bikeraceinfo.com/giro/giro1996.html

I remember Vuelta '11. I had Cobo in my top 10 in I think 8-10 place or someting like that. The same was with Hesjedal some months later. Both in my eyes were top 10 material but not GT winners. Still more shocking for me was Froome coming out of nowhere. I was pretty amused by Menchov form in '11 Vuelta too. I thought he'd lose more time espesially after working for Cobo and top 10 most extraterrestial Giro of propably all time.

Doumulin? I thought he would podium/win P-N one day with maybe doing a top 10 odd year Vuelta, but after some 2-4 years. He did show up some climbing capabilities but i would never consider him as the breakthough GT Dutch guy beating Gesink, Ten Dam, Kelderman, Mollema in the process.

I wonder, who will win Vuelta in 2017. Maybe Tanel Kangert? Diego Rosa? Tim Wellens? Steve Morabito?

 

[May0maniac]

Faustini indeed was 7th in '96 Giro. Some good names are behind him: Buenahora, Berzin, Robin, Zberg, Lanfranchi, Poulnikov....
http://bikeraceinfo.com/giro/giro1996.html

I remember Vuelta '11. I had Cobo in my top 10 in I think 8-10 place or someting like that. The same was with Hesjedal some months later. Both in my eyes were top 10 material but not GT winners. Still more shocking for me was Froome coming out of nowhere. I was pretty amused by Menchov form in '11 Vuelta too. I thought he'd lose more time espesially after working for Cobo and top 10 most extraterrestial Giro of propably all time.

Doumulin? I thought he would podium/win P-N one day with maybe doing a top 10 odd year Vuelta, but after some 2-4 years. He did show up some climbing capabilities but i would never consider him as the breakthough GT Dutch guy beating Gesink, Ten Dam, Kelderman, Mollema in the process.

I wonder, who will win Vuelta in 2017. Maybe Tanel Kangert? Diego Rosa? Tim Wellens? Steve Morabito?

Tim Wellens is a good climber, the guy was 9th in the Monte Grappe MTT, in the 3rd week of his first gt, that's really impressive. Morabito is another teflon doper, rode for Phonak, 2007-2009 Astana and BMC, that's an impressive list of shady teams.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

I remember once looking at the results of the 1996 Vuelta, the last GT where you could shoot up to high heaven before the party poopers at UCI put in the 50% rule. In 4th and 5th place came Roberti Pistore and Stefano Faustini. Who? Yeah exactly, never heard from again after that race.

Must be something in the air over there.

maybe Mr. 65 and 66% (or so...)

Faustini is a dentist nowadays. Although he won some stages at Valle de Aosta that Vuelta top 10 seems to be his only further remarkable result as a pro.

Pistore is pretty hilarious. He placed sixth at the Vuelta as a neo-pro in 1995 and was fourth in 1996. Arguably he was a decent talent and about to become a new Italian gc contender. Instead he disappeared one year later when the hematocrit rule was introduced and retired in 1999. As soon as the Epo test came up.

Edith says that Faustini actually was 7th at he 1996 Giro as well. Right before Shefer, Robin and Eugeni Berzin.
He basically had the year of his life. ^^

Faustini continued racing after the 50% limit and was just as good when he was not injured, which wasn't often. He was considered a talent in the late 80s and early 90s but refused to turn pro until he finished his studies.
Pistore on the other hand, is up there with Furlan as guys whose entire career was made possible by EPO