Lance or Weisel? Who tosses who first.

[spetsa]

Now that it has come out that Lance had irregular test values as early as 1993, let's take a look back at his early career. A young Lance Armstrong leaves triathlon to become a world class cyclist under the care of one Tom Weisel and the Subaru-Montgomery team. By 1991, this team consisted of multiple riders that had less than stellar reputations as clean cyclists. Two notables, Krzystof Wiatr and Andrzej Mierzejewski.


http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=8342

Both went on to win many races here in the US and later test positive. Both were banned from racing and deported back to their home country of Poland. Wiatr was found to actually be married to someone in his home country, and fought deportation because he was simultaneously married to the daughter of a race promoter here in the US.
Another notable part of the equation was one Eddie B., enough said there. The Polish connection, and the association of a handfull of wealthy men that later took over USA Cycling may be the link that sent USA Cycling spiraling downhill. My opoinion only on that front, but based based on the fact that I met these two Polish racers shortly after they moved to the States and were tearing legs off all over the US, and I subsequently with their help, spent the next year chasing my dream on a small Polish team. Things did not work out very well due to my unwillingness to have random needles shoved into my ***, but that is another story.
The point being that as an old time insider, I find it hard to believe that Lance concocted this idea on his own. Was he the mastermind of the US Postal fiasco? Quite possibly, but it is just my opinion that LA is going to come out with a serious blame game within minutes of being indicted. Weisel has got to be crapping his pants. There is going to be so much more to this story than most of you forum posters can even imagine.
Personally, I hope to see LA go down in handcuffs, but my bet is he walks away humiliated and a handfull of wealthy men do time, because they thought they were above the law.

What is your take?

 

[Cobblestones]

After all these years in attack mode, I have difficulties seeing LA break down, admitting and then try to blame Weisel or whomever for getting him into this mess. It would seem totally out of character. I think LA goes down with the ship denying until the bitter end.

But then again, stranger things have happened.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Now that it has come out that Lance had irregular test values as early as 1993, let's take a look back at his early career. A young Lance Armstrong leaves triathlon to become a world class cyclist under the care of one Tom Weisel and the Subaru-Montgomery team. By 1991, this team consisted of multiple riders that had less than stellar reputations as clean cyclists. Two notables, Krzystof Wiatr and Andrzej Mierzejewski.


http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=8342

Both went on to win many races here in the US and later test positive. Both were banned from racing and deported back to their home country of Poland. Wiatr was found to actually be married to someone in his home country, and fought deportation because he was simultaneously married to the daughter of a race promoter here in the US.
Another notable part of the equation was one Eddie B., enough said there. The Polish connection, and the association of a handfull of wealthy men that later took over USA Cycling may be the link that sent USA Cycling spiraling downhill. My opoinion only on that front, but based based on the fact that I met these two Polish racers shortly after they moved to the States and were tearing legs off all over the US, and I subsequently with their help, spent the next year chasing my dream on a small Polish team. Things did not work out very well due to my unwillingness to have random needles shoved into my ***, but that is another story.
The point being that as an old time insider, I find it hard to believe that Lance concocted this idea on his own. Was he the mastermind of the US Postal fiasco? Quite possibly, but it is just my opinion that LA is going to come out with a serious blame game within minutes of being indicted. Weisel has got to be crapping his pants. There is going to be so much more to this story than most of you forum posters can even imagine.
Personally, I hope to see LA go down in handcuffs, but my bet is he walks away humiliated and a handfull of wealthy men do time, because they thought they were above the law.

What is your take?

Take a look at the Tailwind principals. Lance would be 'the talent' but he needs the other people in Tailwind to help grow the fraud. The UCI helped blow up the myth too. I don't know the particulars of when it got started at the UCI.

Your suggested outcome is in the realm of reasonable outcomes.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Take a look at the Tailwind principals. Lance would be 'the talent' but he needs the other people in Tailwind to help grow the fraud. The UCI helped blow up the myth too. I don't know the particulars of when it got started at the UCI.

Your suggested outcome is in the realm of reasonable outcomes.

Unless it rises to the level of taking down Verbruggen and his sidekick fat Pat the outcome will not be fully satisfactory.

 

[Race Radio]

Unless it rises to the level of taking down Verbruggen and his sidekick fat Pat the outcome will not be fully satisfactory.

Exactly.

If someone is looking for how this whole deal will help the sport Fat Pat and Verduggen in jail for corruption charges is a good start

 

[paxman]

I think LA goes down with the ship denying until the bitter end.

Yep. That's how I see it too.

 

[BotanyBay]

Before he did it for a living with Thom Weisel, he did his internship with Chris Carmichael as a junior. Turn the clock back 22 years, and you've got the following situation:

An angry kid with superior athletic talent and a massive void in terms of there being no father figure in his life. He was young, hungry, impressionable, etc. He'd do anything his mentors taught and told him to do, and he found success with their methods. Chris Carmichael was his junior coach on the US national team. Chris' coach was Eddie B.

Have no doubt: Eddie B was the seed of this poison ivy.

I have no inherent "hatred" for Armstrong. Personally, I firmly believe that he was the victim of child abuse, and he "paid it forward" as the abused so often do.

 

[spetsa]

Exactly.

If someone is looking for how this whole deal will help the sport Fat Pat and Verduggen in jail for corruption charges is a good start

I guess that may well happen if Weisel and his USA Cycling lackeys need to play their "get out of jail free" card. The only way I see that happening is if Lance sings. He has put on a good face and attitude for many years, but in a country where crying on Oprah's couch is all that is needed to be forgiven and forgotten, my money is on the One Nut Wonder to sing and sing loudly.

.

 

[Benotti69]

Exactly.

If someone is looking for how this whole deal will help the sport Fat Pat and Verduggen in jail for corruption charges is a good start

that is not gonna happen is it? they are gonna come down hard on anything that links them and shut up shop in bankland.

 

[webvan]

We'll know for sure when either of these guys are called in front of the grand jury. That's when they'll have to make big decision in terms of whether they want to continue lying or not...

BTW who's "Eddie B." ?

 

[D-Queued]

We'll know for sure when either of these guys are called in front of the grand jury. That's when they'll have to make big decision in terms of whether they want to continue lying or not...

BTW who's "Eddie B." ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Borysewicz

Dave.

 

[BotanyBay]

BTW who's "Eddie B." ?

Are you serious?

 

[BotanyBay]

Yep. That's how I see it too.

Ditto. Old School Omerta, no peeing in the soup.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Now that it has come out that Lance had irregular test values as early as 1993, let's take a look back at his early career. A young Lance Armstrong leaves triathlon to become a world class cyclist under the care of one Tom Weisel and the Subaru-Montgomery team. By 1991, this team consisted of multiple riders that had less than stellar reputations as clean cyclists. Two notables, Krzystof Wiatr and Andrzej Mierzejewski.


http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=8342

Both went on to win many races here in the US and later test positive. Both were banned from racing and deported back to their home country of Poland. Wiatr was found to actually be married to someone in his home country, and fought deportation because he was simultaneously married to the daughter of a race promoter here in the US.
Another notable part of the equation was one Eddie B., enough said there. The Polish connection, and the association of a handfull of wealthy men that later took over USA Cycling may be the link that sent USA Cycling spiraling downhill. My opoinion only on that front, but based based on the fact that I met these two Polish racers shortly after they moved to the States and were tearing legs off all over the US, and I subsequently with their help, spent the next year chasing my dream on a small Polish team. Things did not work out very well due to my unwillingness to have random needles shoved into my ***, but that is another story.
The point being that as an old time insider, I find it hard to believe that Lance concocted this idea on his own. Was he the mastermind of the US Postal fiasco? Quite possibly, but it is just my opinion that LA is going to come out with a serious blame game within minutes of being indicted. Weisel has got to be crapping his pants. There is going to be so much more to this story than most of you forum posters can even imagine.
Personally, I hope to see LA go down in handcuffs, but my bet is he walks away humiliated and a handfull of wealthy men do time, because they thought they were above the law.

What is your take?

To answer the highlighted first - no, LA did not concoct it all or on his own. But you have 3 similar personalities in LA, Wiesel & Stapleton - so like met like.

I think these 3 will be protected somewhat from the serious charges, although it will be obvious that their 'prints' are all over it.
The fall guys will be the people who dealt with Tailwind/USPS/Wiesel day to day - people like Och, Osipow & Gorski.

 

[BotanyBay]

To answer the highlighted first - no, LA did not concoct it all or on his own. But you have 3 similar personalities in LA, Wiesel & Stapleton - so like met like.

I think these 3 will be protected somewhat from the serious charges, although it will be obvious that their 'prints' are all over it.
The fall guys will be the people who dealt with Tailwind/USPS/Wiesel day to day - people like Och, Osipow & Gorski.

To put it mildly, if Thom Weisel woke up and only had Lance's money, he'd shoot himself. Weisel's going nowhere except wherever he wants to go. He can buy his way out of this far easier than Lance can.

 

[Chuffy]

Does the thread title refer to some kind of prison game?

 

[Oldman]

To put it mildly, if Thom Weisel woke up and only had Lance's money, he'd shoot himself. Weisel's going nowhere except wherever he wants to go. He can buy his way out of this far easier than Lance can.

While he might think he can Novitsky's plan may be to actually jail a high profile individual. Martha Stewart got her star turn in a jumpsuit and Novitsky was not shy about seeing America's sweetheart, Marion behind bars. These folks all had money, too but not as much other residual ill will as Mr. Weisel. Lance will fold, go on Oprah and explain losing one nugget cost him his better judgement. That will fly until Sheryl Crow finally decides he's a smaller threat and she can tell Oprah what she knows...

 

[BotanyBay]

While he might think he can Novitsky's plan may be to actually jail a high profile individual. Martha Stewart got her star turn in a jumpsuit and Novitsky was not shy about seeing America's sweetheart, Marion behind bars. These folks all had money, too but not as much other residual ill will as Mr. Weisel. Lance will fold, go on Oprah and explain losing one nugget cost him his better judgement. That will fly until Sheryl Crow finally decides he's a smaller threat and she can tell Oprah what she knows...

Thom used to take the private jet down to San Diego, just to ride with Eddie B. He'd drop 60K per week just on GAS.

Weisel knows people Martha only wishes she had the access to know. But even that doesn't always beat the feds.

I think that Weisel and Armstrong would both go down saying nothing about each other. They could share a cell and never speak a word to each other.

 

[Oldman]

Thom used to take the private jet down to San Diego, just to ride with Eddie B. He'd drop 60K per week just on GAS.

Weisel knows people Martha only wishes she had the access to know. But even that doesn't always beat the feds.

I think that Weisel and Armstrong would both go down saying nothing about each other. They could share a cell and never speak a word to each other.

Who would get "top bunk"?

 

[BotanyBay]

Who would get "top bunk"?

Tough call:

 

[spetsa]

Thom used to take the private jet down to San Diego, just to ride with Eddie B. He'd drop 60K per week just on GAS.

Weisel knows people Martha only wishes she had the access to know. But even that doesn't always beat the feds.

I think that Weisel and Armstrong would both go down saying nothing about each other. They could share a cell and never speak a word to each other.

This is just speculation and part slightly substantiated rumour, but let's bring BALCO aka. San Francisco Bay Area Labratory Cooperative into the mix. If I recall- and I will try to find a link- Victor Conte refused to name the "unnamed investors" as he was being investegated and subsequently sentenced. How many people in SF would have both the money and the interest in a project like that?

Oh I know one. Weisel !!!! If the bidding for the Olympics,, at most of his own dime, to comfort his ego, was reallity, what else may be?

Remember, Novitsky got involved in cycling before Floyd spilled the beans.

And in regards to Botany Bay's comments to my first post about Weisel and Eddie B. You are right, it goes back well before Subaru Montgomery in the early 90's. I hope Novitsky was smart enough to talk to Jeff Evanshine, the only rider that wore the Skittles jersey at the Tour Du Pont that I would guess would be more than willing to give his two cents.

 

[BotanyBay]

This is just speculation and part slightly substantiated rumour, but let's bring BALCO aka. San Francisco Bay Area Labratory Cooperative into the mix. If I recall- and I will try to find a link- Victor Conte refused to name the "unnamed investors" as he was being investegated and subsequently sentenced. How many people in SF would have both the money and the interest in a project like that?

Oh I know one. Weisel !!!! If the bidding for the Olympics,, at most of his own dime, to comfort his ego, was reallity, what else may be?

Remember, Novitsky got involved in cycling before Floyd spilled the beans.

And in regards to Botany Bay's comments to my first post about Weisel and Eddie B. You are right, it goes back well before Subaru Montgomery in the early 90's. I hope Novitsky was smart enough to talk to Jeff Evanshine, the only rider that wore the Skittles jersey at the Tour Du Pont that I would guess would be more than willing to give his two cents.

I was recently looking at some old Sam Emerson bike racing photos on Facebook (check em out... pure gold), and I saw that Greg McNeil was on Montgomery Securities circa 1990. Perhaps he would also know. He lives in the bay area now. Anyone know him? BTW, Greg was a DOMINANT junior, not just a good rider. I seriously doubt he was doing any hot sauce. He was a 100% ethics kinda guy.

 

[Nick777]

Are you serious?

To be fair, some of us haven't been as familiar with a lot of the people in US cycling - particularly us 'foreigners'..

 

[Oldman]

To be fair, some of us haven't been as familiar with a lot of the people in US cycling - particularly us 'foreigners'..

The group that travelled through the Eddie B/USACycling to USPS/Motorola system wasn't that large, partially because of the PED stuff that's coming to light now. I'll keep saying that many of the most talented riders from the US quit rather than yield to using PEDs. As Weisel was capable of cornering much of the emerging talent and sponsorship there weren't many options for amateurs on the way up. It would be the rare talent like Scott McKinley that managed to perform as a relatively pristine cyclist.
Coors Light and other teams have been exposed as less organized versions of the same model. The number of Aussie and New Zealanders that came here could give you a clue to the pedigree and "professionalism" that was expected in a fairly small pro peloton amd should be familiar to many on your side of Earth.

 

[Merckx index]

He has put on a good face and attitude for many years, but in a country where crying on Oprah's couch is all that is needed to be forgiven and forgotten, my money is on the One Nut Wonder to sing and sing loudly.

The difference is the length of time involved. Other fallen sports heroes, e.g., Vick or Woods, were found out much sooner. It seems to me this is uncharted territory, no celebrity I can think of off the top of my head, certainly no athlete in a situation at all comparable to LA's, has maintained an aura--of not simply innocence, but with the cancer foundation, almost saintliness--for so long. More than ten years, and now we're talking about twenty years or more.

I think it's a little late for the teary-eyed confession (even if it were in character, and as others have pointed out, it's not).You can say you were a bady boy for a previous period of a year or two, but not for decades. Particularly when so much of your time during this period was spent very aggressively going after anyone who suggested otherwise. I think even the American public has limits on forgiveness.