Landis Attacks Vaughters

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BikeCentric said:
Yeah, he's correct. That year was the flattest Giro in the last 20 years or so, that's pretty much why Cunego won, that and a fairly weak field and Simoni being a bit old and off his form.

Also, to go back to McGee, he like Wigans lost a ton of weight that year and tried to transform himself from a pursuit rider / Prologue specialist into a GT rider. McGee himself declared that the experiment had failed after his result in that Giro and then went back to being a short TT specialist for the next year or two and then retired.
I was referring to the doping part, not the terrain.
 
BikeCentric said:
Yeah, he's correct. That year was the flattest Giro in the last 20 years or so, that's pretty much why Cunego won, that and a fairly weak field and Simoni being a bit old and off his form.

Also, to go back to McGee, he like Wigans lost a ton of weight that year and tried to transform himself from a pursuit rider / Prologue specialist into a GT rider. McGee himself declared that the experiment had failed after his result in that Giro and then went back to being a short TT specialist for the next year or two and then retired.
My being a devoted Simoni fanboy, I hold on tight to the belief that Simoni's hands were tied and would've won his second consecutive Giro and 3rd overall if not for most of his team and team management turning on him and throwing their support behind the new Italian hotness that was Cunego.:D
I keep encouraging myself by looking at each successive Giro that followed and how Simoni was constantly dropping Cunego on virtually every mountain they both encountered. It's my belief that in 2004 Simoni was still at the height of his powers and only in 2007-2009 did his decline begin. Of course my vision and perception is quite distorted by Simoni fanboyism.:)
 
Galic Ho said:
Funny thing I was watching highlights from the 2006 Tour the other day. First mountain stage in the Pyrenees and Wigans is dropped. Wait, what dropped from what group? The autobus with Stewie O'Grady and McEwen at the front. First climb. Anyone who watched the last decade of cycling knew there was only one way Wigans could compete for GC. Alan Lim's rice cakes.:p
No need to be so negative! Look on the bright side: at least that suggests Wigans was clean back then. It's something!
 
Aug 12, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Are you serious?
Yep on both parts. McGee was one of the smart ones, like Damiano. He got off the sauce and look at his performance drop. Went from Green Jersey candidate at the Tour, to no show and switching from team to team till Riis gave him a go last year at Saxo. Pretty sure he's a manager/DS now. Might be wrong. You won't ever hear it from Cunego in as many words, but he has alluded numerous times to having been on the juice. Very anti-doping now. Lance doesn't like him. Whatever McGee did, he stopped doing it and his results suffered after 2004.

But back to Wigans. Take his weight loss. Reportedly 20lbs. His body fat was exceptionally low...all pro-cyclists have less than 10% body fat. I'd wager it was less than 8% before the weight loss. He lost functional muscle mass as well, but somehow managed to perform the best ITT of his life in a GT. Why? His weight loss and fat leves indicate he had to. Impossible to do that and become a more powerful time trialer than before, even though you are a specialist, without medical aid. He never did it at a heavier weight...ever. Good on the track but crap on the road. You don't suddenly transform like Wigans did without some help, especially given the dynamics involved.
 
Aug 16, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
Yep on both parts. McGee was one of the smart ones, like Damiano. He got off the sauce and look at his performance drop. Went from Green Jersey candidate at the Tour, to no show and switching from team to team till Riis gave him a go last year at Saxo.



ITS A COOKE!
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Angliru said:
My being a devoted Simoni fanboy, I hold on tight to the belief that Simoni's hands were tied and would've won his second consecutive Giro and 3rd overall if not for most of his team and team management turning on him and throwing their support behind the new Italian hotness that was Cunego.:D
I keep encouraging myself by looking at each successive Giro that followed and how Simoni was constantly dropping Cunego on virtually every mountain they both encountered. It's my belief that in 2004 Simoni was still at the height of his powers and only in 2007-2009 did his decline begin. Of course my vision and perception is quite distorted by Simoni fanboyism.:)
I'm a Simoni fanboy as well so I hear you. I do think Simoni had started to decline physically a bit that year because for example the year prior (the year of the Cannondale pink flowered bibs LOL) he would have simply stomped Cunego into submission on all the climbs. But regardless, team management certainly did put him in check and instruct him to pass the torch and I think he handled it pretty well despite being understandably upset as any great champion put in that situation would be.

And on this subject I think maybe I will watch only the Giro this year and maybe skip the Tour for the first time in like 15 years. Of course I've said this for the past 3 years and then everytime the Tour circus time rolls around I can't resist it. Still, the Giro is just by far the better race.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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hrotha said:
No need to be so negative! Look on the bright side: at least that suggests Wigans was clean back then. It's something!
Yeah, he actually probably was. Also considering how vociferously bitter and anti-doping he was back then in contrast to what an Armstrong nut-licker and Omerta enforcer he is now. I mean seriously, Wigans fanboys probably disgust me more than Armstrong fanboys at this point given how completely transparent Wigans has been in his 180 degree turn-around regarding actions and words.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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galic ho said:
you won't ever hear it from cunego in as many words, but he has alluded numerous times to having been on the juice. Very anti-doping now. lance doesn't like him.
"I'LL CRUSH YOU LITTLE PRINCE!!!!"

ha ha ha ha ha
 
Aug 12, 2009
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hrotha said:
No need to be so negative! Look on the bright side: at least that suggests Wigans was clean back then. It's something!
I meant it in the kindest, but funniest way. I don't hate Wigans. He's an easy rip for a joke. The guy just keeps going and going. Like the Twitter thing this week with Floyd. Then the Mrs steps in. British comedy is awesome. I watch the racing for what it is. I cannot help but go back and notice things I wasn't aware of at the time. Hindsight dude. Like I know now Armstrong is a doper. Don't hate the guy. Hope he gets nailed, but for the benefit of cycling, nothing more. Like all dopers. I don't like seeing one or two guys used as examples and tossed to the side, but another blatant doper is hailed as a hero (worse when they're douchebags in real life).

Guess I want a smoking gun that decimates the mantra doping has on cycling in one fould swoop. Nothing so far has worked. One big name gets caught and he either adopts Omerta and comes back or he doesn't and is the villain. JV really could step up to the plate, but he's made his bed and is resting in it. Too many sponsor $ signs at stake. Couldn't imagine how an entire team would cope or feel if the boss decided to shake the sport up a little. JV really is in a damned if you do or don't scenario. One of the supposed "nice, cleaner guys" in admin/management positions. But that is all about perception, which is about marketing and advertising. He's been playing with too much fire and is going to get burnt sooner of later.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Yes I believe that is a picture of a cook(e).
Whats the reference?
Some people mix up McGee and Baden Cooke.

Come to think of it, I did with the green jersey reference.
 
Aug 16, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Yes I believe that is a picture of a cook(e).
Whats the reference?
I just like it. I think this COOKE would look better in a TDF green jersey than MAGEE.

But I shoudnt question galic HO, he knows a lot about cycling, he told me so.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
But back to Wigans. Take his weight loss. Reportedly 20lbs. His body fat was exceptionally low...all pro-cyclists have less than 10% body fat. I'd wager it was less than 8% before the weight loss. He lost functional muscle mass as well, but somehow managed to perform the best ITT of his life in a GT. Why? His weight loss and fat leves indicate he had to. Impossible to do that and become a more powerful time trialer than before, even though you are a specialist, without medical aid. He never did it at a heavier weight...ever. Good on the track but crap on the road. You don't suddenly transform like Wigans did without some help, especially given the dynamics involved.
Absolutely agree with you there, I can see you've trained yourself or at minimum read a lot about the science of training.

There is no possible way to lose muscle mass (at the level of an already highly trained cyclist) and increase power output (clean). You can lose muscle mass and increase your power/weight and go uphill faster even you're putting out 10-20 less watts (or more if you're a bigger dude) but you sure as heck are going to lose seconds off your flat TT times. No way around it, and it's an obvious fact to anyone who's trained themself to a high level.

And no, this isn't one of those variables that's "different for pro cyclists and that's why their pros." The obvious genetic gifts that pro cyclists have cannot get around this reality.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
"I'LL CRUSH YOU LITTLE PRINCE!!!!"

ha ha ha ha ha
Cunego and Lance have been on par since the 3rd coming. Well kind of if one excludes the 2009 TdF result. Lots of promise and not much to show for it.

Still Lance's efforts on Filippo Simeoni were more entertaining. Heck, whilst Italian champ, he was excluded from the Giro at the behest of Lance. What did we viewers get? A lousy stage into Milan of soft pedalling for the old fella who needed an extra rest day. Italy thanks you Lance.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
I meant it in the kindest, but funniest way. I don't hate Wigans. He's an easy rip for a joke. The guy just keeps going and going. Like the Twitter thing this week with Floyd. Then the Mrs steps in. British comedy is awesome. I watch the racing for what it is. I cannot help but go back and notice things I wasn't aware of at the time. Hindsight dude. Like I know now Armstrong is a doper. Don't hate the guy. Hope he gets nailed, but for the benefit of cycling, nothing more. Like all dopers. I don't like seeing one or two guys used as examples and tossed to the side, but another blatant doper is hailed as a hero (worse when they're douchebags in real life).

Guess I want a smoking gun that decimates the mantra doping has on cycling in one fould swoop. Nothing so far has worked. One big name gets caught and he either adopts Omerta and comes back or he doesn't and is the villain. JV really could step up to the plate, but he's made his bed and is resting in it. Too many sponsor $ signs at stake. Couldn't imagine how an entire team would cope or feel if the boss decided to shake the sport up a little. JV really is in a damned if you do or don't scenario. One of the supposed "nice, cleaner guys" in admin/management positions. But that is all about perception, which is about marketing and advertising. He's been playing with too much fire and is going to get burnt sooner of later.
The only dopers I "hate" are the ones that enforce Omerta. The majority of them I cannot hate because I know they are doing what they have to do to be at that level. Of course I don't like it, but it's only when they cross the line from quietly going about their business to trying to solidify the doping status quo that I begin to actively dislike them and root for their downfall.

So now Wigans is in that camp. Would love to see him get taken down now, especially considering his blatant hypocrisy.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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WonderLance said:
I just like it. I think this COOKE would look better in a TDF green jersey than MAGEE.

But I shoudnt question galic HO, he knows a lot about cycling, he told me so.
I never said squat to you about what I know and don't know. Nice creative imagination there. Don't drink the bong water champ. Sheesh, leave this place and come back a few months later and you're jumping at the bit. Settle down champ.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
The only dopers I "hate" are the ones that enforce Omerta. The majority of them I cannot hate because I know they are doing what they have to do to be at that level. Of course I don't like it, but it's only when they cross the line from quietly going about their business to trying to solidify the doping status quo that I begin to actively dislike them and root for their downfall.

So now Wigans is in that camp. Would love to see him get taken down now, especially considering his blatant hypocrisy.
So would I. I was one of the first here calling Wigans a hypocrit. Guess that 1 million Euro contract makes living with one self easier.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
So would I. I was one of the first hear calling Wigans a hypocrit. Guess that 1 million Euro contract makes living with one self easier.
Yup, seems to help the wife "get in line" with having a needle junkie for a hubby too doesn't it.
 
BikeCentric said:
Absolutely agree with you there, I can see you've trained yourself or at minimum read a lot about the science of training.

There is no possible way to lose muscle mass (at the level of an already highly trained cyclist) and increase power output (clean). You can lose muscle mass and increase your power/weight and go uphill faster even you're putting out 10-20 less watts (or more if you're a bigger dude) but you sure as heck are going to lose seconds off your flat TT times. No way around it, and it's an obvious fact to anyone who's trained themself to a high level.

And no, this isn't one of those variables that's "different for pro cyclists and that's why their pros." The obvious genetic gifts that pro cyclists have cannot get around this reality.
Absolute BS.
You are confusing muscular strength with overall power output.
Threshold power output is the result of many variables.
It is very possible to TT faster with less muscle mass.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Absolute BS.
You are confusing muscular strength with overall power output.
Threshold power output is the result of many variables.
It is very possible to TT faster with less muscle mass.
It's not BS son, it's reality. You'll figure it out if you stick around this sport for a few more years, but as of now it's painfully obvious that you're a know-nothing noob. You should talk less and read more, but I know you won't.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
Absolutely agree with you there, I can see you've trained yourself or at minimum read a lot about the science of training.

There is no possible way to lose muscle mass (at the level of an already highly trained cyclist) and increase power output (clean). You can lose muscle mass and increase your power/weight and go uphill faster even you're putting out 10-20 less watts (or more if you're a bigger dude) but you sure as heck are going to lose seconds off your flat TT times. No way around it, and it's an obvious fact to anyone who's trained themself to a high level.

And no, this isn't one of those variables that's "different for pro cyclists and that's why their pros." The obvious genetic gifts that pro cyclists have cannot get around this reality.
Done a lot of training. Need to get back into. By my standards I'm unfit. But that isn't relevant. I have a huge pile of scientific reading and fitness magazines piled up near my bed. Great reading on nutrition basics, but also muscle building, weight loss, elevation training, hydration and fluid loss, etc. I like being informed.

Brad himself said in 2009 his body fat % was so low (4%) that he got sick after the Tour. JV confirmed it. Don't ask me to source it. Was 2 years ago. Not really important, but it stuck out when I heard figures thrown about debating how much weight Wigans really dropped. Made me realise he had to have lost functional muscle mass. I floated the idea on the AICAR thread that came up at the time. Super weight loss drug that increased muscle strength whilst destroying body fat. I believe the UCI finally banned it in October last year, first week of that month. Think they have a test for it as well, but I'm not 100% sure. It is what I said AC should have used, not Clenbuterol, to lose weight. I'd love to see the Biggest Loser contestants put on a drug like that. The results would be amazing.
 
BikeCentric said:
It's not BS son, it's reality. You'll figure it out if you stick around this sport for a few more years, but as of now it's painfully obvious that you're a know-nothing noob. You should talk less and read more, but I know you won't.
Ok I'll stick around, see If I can pick up some more gems...
 
Aug 16, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
I never said squat to you about what I know and don't know. Nice creative imagination there. Don't drink the bong water champ. Sheesh, leave this place and come back a few months later and you're jumping at the bit. Settle down champ.
I am very soory. Please accept my invisible happiness and goodvibes peace cake which I will send to you using only my mind, a cannon handy cam a jar of Vaseline and and my uporn account.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
It's not BS son, it's reality. You'll figure it out if you stick around this sport for a few more years, but as of now it's painfully obvious that you're a know-nothing noob. You should talk less and read more, but I know you won't.
I ride my bike for a living and I understand the science of producing power on a bicycle, and I can tell you this is categorically false. I've lost a lot of weight, somewhere on the order of 20 lbs over what I weighed in my late teens, and my power has steadily increased.

But that really doesn't matter. Muscle mass has very little to do with power output over durations of about a minute, weather you're on a flat stretch of road or going up hill. If you think otherwise you simply don't understand the mechanisms for producing power on a bicycle.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Absolute BS.
You are confusing muscular strength with overall power output.
Threshold power output is the result of many variables.
It is very possible to TT faster with less muscle mass.
Tell that to Cancellara after the Annecy ITT in 2009. Guy was fuming. He thought it was BS as well. Still does. One skinny guy spanked him. 63 kilograms versus 80 kg. I know who should win, who almost did.

Fact is Wigans results in 2009 far outshine those of his heavier weight in prior years. He lost 9 kilos. You must have missed all the threads and pictures poking fun at his twig legs. Note his approach as well. Before 2009, he was along for the ride and supposedly as a track expert (a very good one) and chrono expert, but he never came near the top 5 in any ITT, despit that being his main focus. In 2009 he did that and climbed like a mountain goat. Whole new ball game and performance approach. Bit too much for my imagination to put down to simple weight loss, but if you don't see it that way, fair enough.
 

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