Last clean Grand Tour winner?

[eleven]

Almost all other convicted dopers have/had at least some moral.

I presume you can figure out the problem with the above on your own...

 

[blackcat]

U'r correct in that he won early and consistently...with team support or in single day events and it was basically on strength/power, not the recovery required for a 3 week event.. As for the "cancer thing"...ask his former teammates how they guessed he gained alot of weight during the same 6-hour ride regimes that saw them all lose weight. Even the soigneiurs were trying to figure that one out and that did not repress any illnesses he might have been exposed to. Andreau and friends can't say it but there was something strange going on that last season before the cure.
He simply did not go back to the same gym after the cancer scare; as coaches had advised him earlier. He probably gained some sense of purpose that impending death would inspire all common men with.
Complain about his manipulation of media and UCI all you want but his motivation is equal to any other racer.
I don't like it either.

I heard Andreu said after the first season back with Ferrari, he came into the training camp bigger, and ripped the legs off everyone, and the crank arms, something had changed.

 

[Escarabajo]

The small drop of hematocrit of Lance suggests that he refuelled or EPO micro dosed even during GIRO.
The comparaison is done with riders of 1999.

I assumed the other riders were hand picked, because the hematocrit trend looks too normal for 1999 Tour. Do you know anything about the description of the population of this study?

 

[Polish]

Miracle Wonder Medical BreakThoughs

The small drop of hematocrit of Lance suggests that he refuelled or EPO micro dosed even during GIRO.
The comparaison is done with riders of 1999.

Is it appropriate to compare the EPO of the 80's and 90's to the current Generation of Super EPO?

Medical breakthroughs have been and will be continuing - hopefully for a long time to come. And the future drugs and techniques will be exponentially better than the latest and greatest stuff today.

From the vantage point of the 2050 TdF, 90's EPO will seem only slightly better than an iron shot.

Yes, the graphs from 10 years ago tell a story, but do not get too hung up and fixated on the past in your quest for a drug-free TdF future lol. I am not saying stop dissing Lance - you may want to keep your eye on the ball in regards to future cheating threats

Geez, imagine if Mr and Mrs Ricco get their little one into a gene doping program

PS....Gene Therapy is an incredibly promising medical field. It is a Good thing!

 

[Escarabajo]

I have been looking for this for a while now, should be of interest to the current debates ongoing in the Clinic. I am not saying this is my view also, just putting it out there as another angle on doping, make of it what you will.

This is part of an interview with former Dutch rider Peter Winnen taken from Cycle Sport Feb 2005. Winnen finished in the Top 5 at the Tour de France 3 times in the early 80s and was best young rider in 81. He retired in 1990 having rode for Capri-Sonne/Panasonic. He is very forthright on the subject of doping, his own doping, what he considers doping and when it truly changed.

On doping in the 80s:

"There was a list of things that were forbidden, and there was nothing on it that would have been a help to performance. There were medicants on this list. Was it the idea that the cyclist cannot be ill? So I developed quite a liberal view on things, It was only at the end of the 80s when we saw a product come in that really was dope, EPO"

On the practice of Hormonal equilibrium in which hormones were taken to replace those depleted by competition:

"No it was common sense. I did not see it as an immoral thing. The business is so hard that you should get treatment when you are depleted."

On the benefits of amphetamines:

"Amphetamines do not make you better, they just make you thing you are better."

Why he draws the line at doping with EPO:

"Because EPO does work, and with that you are losing the spirit of the sport. Everything before that either didnt work or was a medicine. After EPO, races became beween doctors, not cyclists."

"The myth disappeared in cycling with the arrival of EPO. Only then did doping really exist. It turned the game into something else."

On when he realised EPO had arrived:

"At the end of the 80s, I was racing in Italy and was in good shape, but even in the mountains the biggest arsehole was getting away from me and I thought whats going on."

Asked if he ever took EPO:

"No, never, I was 30 by then and my youngest kid was just born, os I thought this is it. I stopped racing and in my mind, I was turning away from cycling because it had lost its innocence."

I had not read this before. Very interesting. Thanks.

I remember Winnen from the high gear ratios that he used to use.

 

[Oldman]

I had not read this before. Very interesting. Thanks.

I remember Winnen from the high gear ratios that he used to use.

What is interesting is that he chose to draw the line between the historical "looking after yourself" list of hormone aids and EPO. No doubt because he saw mules turning into thoroughbreds. Remember the Geweiss bandwagon during the Giro? Not sure what year but the whole team was jumping like jackrabbits on crack. Even our usually dim commentators had some amazement in their tone.

 

[pmcg76]

What is interesting is that he chose to draw the line between the historical "looking after yourself" list of hormone aids and EPO. No doubt because he saw mules turning into thoroughbreds. Remember the Geweiss bandwagon during the Giro? Not sure what year but the whole team was jumping like jackrabbits on crack. Even our usually dim commentators had some amazement in their tone.

The Gewiss revolution was 94 although I think EPO usage was rampant by then.

According to some former pros, part of the doping problem is that a lot of products were not originally on the banned list so were used frequently, then they are put on the list. Like any situation concerning human nature, how difficult is it to stop somebody from doing something they had been doing for ages and was a benefit.

For example, I dont think testosterone was banned until the mid-80s, could be incorrect on that. Well if you had been a pro since say 1976-77 and had been using testosterone legally for 10 years, how easy is it to then stop using it because it now appears on a banned list. Most products were in use for a while before they were banned. When did EPO become officially banned?

The pros have always had the attitude that if its not banned, then there is no problem taking it. Just look how Delgado got of on a technicality in 88.

 

[montel]

practiced hormonal equilibrium - This occurred even on a US based team in the late 80's-90's that raced the Tour and other major races.

Riders were tested in training and at various times during the season and if their hormone levels were low they were offered a choice - you can go to the team doctor and get hormone injections to boost your levels to just under the legal limit - or you can go to an herbalist and use natural products to try and stimulate your body to produce more hormones.

A former pro road racer, who raced for one of the top teams in Europe in the 80-90's, told me that the guys on his team were so jacked on hormones that they would ummm pleasure themselves on regular basis before and after stages on the team bus.

I also have first hand reports of riders in the early 90's going to clinics before major races to be tested to make sure they wouldn't test positive. This was before Festina and the more organized team based doping became common knowledge and spread into other sports.

Just a few years ago a young former road pro friend of mine was told to not ask what was in his IV bag or he couldn't race anymore that year. He has since retired - I bet he still wonders what was in that IV bag.

I am doubtful that there has been a clean winner of the Tour since Greg Lemond, and before him who knows - Hinault "I passed every test", Fignon - has now admitted doping, Roche is suspect, Delgado tested positive, that gets us all the way back to the 70's, so do we assume that they were clean - Zoetemelk et al?

 

[pmcg76]

practiced hormonal equilibrium - This occurred even on a US based team in the late 80's-90's that raced the Tour and other major races.

Riders were tested in training and at various times during the season and if their hormone levels were low they were offered a choice - you can go to the team doctor and get hormone injections to boost your levels to just under the legal limit - or you can go to an herbalist and use natural products to try and stimulate your body to produce more hormones.

A former pro road racer, who raced for one of the top teams in Europe in the 80-90's, told me that the guys on his team were so jacked on hormones that they would ummm pleasure themselves on regular basis before and after stages on the team bus.

I also have first hand reports of riders in the early 90's going to clinics before major races to be tested to make sure they wouldn't test positive. This was before Festina and the more organized team based doping became common knowledge and spread into other sports.

Just a few years ago a young former road pro friend of mine was told to not ask what was in his IV bag or he couldn't race anymore that year. He has since retired - I bet he still wonders what was in that IV bag.

I am doubtful that there has been a clean winner of the Tour since Greg Lemond, and before him who knows - Hinault "I passed every test", Fignon - has now admitted doping, Roche is suspect, Delgado tested positive, that gets us all the way back to the 70's, so do we assume that they were clean - Zoetemelk et al?

There was only US based team that rode the Tour in the 80s/90s- 7-Eleven/Motorola!!!

As for that story, sounds like a tall tale although one can never rule anything out in pro cycling.

Zootomelk tested positive, dont think Van Impe did, Thevenet definitely on drugs, he admitted it himseld somewhere. Honestly, the outage against drugs in cycling has only come in as the sport became more popular in the English speaking countries and the introduction of EPO.

 

[Oldman]

There was only US based team that rode the Tour in the 80s/90s- 7-Eleven/Motorola!!!

As for that story, sounds like a tall tale although one can never rule anything out in pro cycling.
Zootomelk tested positive, dont think Van Impe did, Thevenet definitely on drugs, he admitted it himseld somewhere. Honestly, the outage against drugs in cycling has only come in as the sport became more popular in the English speaking countries and the introduction of EPO.

Not that tall. Roy Knickman was one of their strongest riders early in the season and, reportedly; refused to gas. He was dropped constantly once the Euro races began and eventually gave it up. Not sure of his reasons but having raced against him he was another real deal that possibly had the misfortune of fighting against the movement of the time.
He didn't talk about it around anyone I knew but got the impression it was not a fun time and he didn't leave with an excess of respect for everyone on that team.

 

[pmcg76]

Not that tall. Roy Knickman was one of their strongest riders early in the season and, reportedly; refused to gas. He was dropped constantly once the Euro races began and eventually gave it up. Not sure of his reasons but having raced against him he was another real deal that possibly had the misfortune of fighting against the movement of the time.
He didn't talk about it around anyone I knew but got the impression it was not a fun time and he didn't leave with an excess of respect for everyone on that team.

Thats interesting, I always got the impression that 7-11 were a relatively clean team. Knickman spent 4 seasons with them so he obviously was able to live with it. Went with Davis Phinney to Coors Light, I remember Phinney doing an article in Winning magazine using Knickman as an example of a US rider who was labelled as the next LeMond with the attached suffocating pressure and asking people not to do the same with Lance. That would have been in 91 I think.

Sorry, the tall tale I was referring to was the bit about the guys on the team bus pleasuring themselves, not 7-Eleven.

 

[Oldman]

Thats interesting, I always got the impression that 7-11 were a relatively clean team. Knickman spent 4 seasons with them so he obviously was able to live with it. Went with Davis Phinney to Coors Light, I remember Phinney doing an article in Winning magazine using Knickman as an example of a US rider who was labelled as the next LeMond with the attached suffocating pressure and asking people not to do the same with Lance. That would have been in 91 I think.

Sorry, the tall tale I was referring to was the bit about the guys on the team bus pleasuring themselves, not 7-Eleven.

You're right; they were relatively clean. 7-11 had some serious natural talent but their European ventures required a deeper commitment for some of the team and they got results almost immediately in the biggest venues. As for the pressure on Knickman I think that was applied in Europe. He raced domestically much of the time and could dominate, like Phinney. Coors Light had their share of miscreants as well and taught him about managing a team. He reportedly didn't have much tolerance while running Prime Alliance and Toyota.