LeMond: Ullrich is the best rider of his generation, he would have won every Tour

[Bavarianrider]

Looks like Bavarian rider(he says less than 16) and you disagree, but this isn't the Stasi thread...and despite JU being pretty young to be forced to dope, Jan still had Riis and Rudy to help him dope later on.

Just like most American and European riders where exposed to doping mentors for the last 20+ years. So are the Stasi, and their diabolical programs, the prime example(s) to discredit Jan?

We'll never be able to dissect out what Jan did/didn't do, was exposed to, forced to do...unless he spills his bag of cycling tricks into a tell all book...which some close to him say will never happen.

The thing is that it's just plane laugahable if people act like Ullrich's GDR childhood had any significant effects on his pro career in terms of doping.
We don't know if Ullrich got something at a very young age, but even if it surely didn't effect his pro career
Cycling wasn't swimming or atheltics were kids were juiced to the maxfrom the earliest days on. Cycling was a fringe sport in that context as the GDR didn'T compete against the west in cycling. Therefore it's very unlikely they would have spent many resources on 15 year old boys.

 

[pmcg76]

The thing is that it's just plane laugahable if people act like Ullrich's GDR childhood had any significant effects on his pro career in terms of doping.
We don't know if Ullrich got something at a very young age, but even if it surely didn't effect his pro career
Cycling wasn't swimming or atheltics were kids were juiced to the maxfrom the earliest days on. Cycling was a fringe sport in that context as the GDR didn'T compete against the west in cycling. Therefore it's very unlikely they would have spent many resources on 15 year old boys.

Actaully the East did compete against the West in cycling, numerous Worlds, Olympics and other amateur and pro-am events. C'mon, the Soviets rode in the Vuelta in 85 or something and were regulars in races like Tour de L'Avenir, Milk Race, Circuit de La Sarthe, ditto the East Germans who rode in numerous international Western events.

 

[roundabout]

The thing is that it's just plane laugahable if people act like Ullrich's GDR childhood had any significant effects on his pro career in terms of doping.
We don't know if Ullrich got something at a very young age, but even if it surely didn't effect his pro career
Cycling wasn't swimming or atheltics were kids were juiced to the maxfrom the earliest days on. Cycling was a fringe sport in that context as the GDR didn'T compete against the west in cycling. Therefore it's very unlikely they would have spent many resources on 15 year old boys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics

 

[lllludo]

System collaps November 1989
Ullrich birthday December 1973

In 1990 Ullrich rode for the DDR junior national track team.
But may be they didn't have doping program for juniors, did they ?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Actaully the East did compete against the West in cycling, numerous Worlds, Olympics and other amateur and pro-am events. C'mon, the Soviets rode in the Vuelta in 85 or something and were regulars in races like Tour de L'Avenir, Milk Race, Circuit de La Sarthe, ditto the East Germans who rode in numerous international Western events.

The east Germans never (seriously) rode against western pros in big western road races. In the world championchips they always stayed in the amteuer race, didn't battle the pros.
Cycling wasn't the sport were the GDR could gaine much fame.
Again i don't say they didn't give him something, nobody knows. But certainly not to the extend that it would have influenced his pro performances some 7-8 years later in any significant matter.

 

[Bavarianrider]

In 1990 Ullrich rode for the DDR junior national track team.
But may be they didn't have doping program for juniors, did they ?

Well obviously you don't know too much about history.

 

[lllludo]

Again i don't say they didn't give him something, nobody knows. But certainly not to the extend that it would have influenced his pro performances some 7-8 years later in any significant matter.

I totally disagree. Dope a 16 yo kid WILL influence his pro life.
Just enough to teach him at age 16 what it takes to succeed and not to be afraid of injections whatever can be put in the needle.

 

[lllludo]

Well obviously you don't know too much about history.

why do you say so ?

 

[pmcg76]

The east Germans never (seriously) rode against western pros in big western road races. In the world championchips they always stayed in the amteuer race, didn't battle the pros.
Cycling wasn't the sport were the GDR could gaine much fame.
Again i don't say they didn't give him something, nobody knows. But certainly not to the extend that it would have influenced his pro performances some 7-8 years later in any significant matter.

Yeah and that was for political reason's as they seen professional sports as a representation of capitalism. Nothing to do with not being good enough. Ludwig did ok as soon as he turned pro, Uwe Ampler and Uwe Raab as well.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Yeah and that was for political reason's as they seen professional sports as a representation of capitalism. Nothing to do with not being good enough. Ludwig did ok as soon as he turned pro, Uwe Ampler and Uwe Raab as well.

Well, why shouldn't they have done well?

 

[Bavarianrider]

I totally disagree. Dope a 16 yo kid WILL influence his pro life.
Just enough to teach him at age 16 what it takes to succeed and not to be afraid of injections whatever can be put in the needle.

Well kids were doped secretly in the GDR.
Anyway, a 16 year old heavily anabolica doped swimmer who wins olympic gold at age 22. Surley he benefited of early doping.
A 23 year old cyclist who might have gotten something ( wouldn't know what, though) at age 15. Not so much

 

[andy1234]

The thing is that it's just plane laugahable if people act like Ullrich's GDR childhood had any significant effects on his pro career in terms of doping.
We don't know if Ullrich got something at a very young age, but even if it surely didn't effect his pro career
Cycling wasn't swimming or atheltics were kids were juiced to the maxfrom the earliest days on. Cycling was a fringe sport in that context as the GDR didn'T compete against the west in cycling. Therefore it's very unlikely they would have spent many resources on 15 year old boys.

Do you think the GDR regime cared which sports brought home the medals?
East German track sprinters and kilo riders were particularly dominant, which is consistent with the type of doping recorded.

Hubner and Hesslich were practically unbeatable during their respective careers.

 

[Granville57]

The thing is that it's just plane laugahable if people act like Ullrich's GDR childhood had any significant effects on his pro career in terms of doping.

I'm not sure anyone is making the argument that whatever doping Jan was exposed to as a youth was directly responsible for his results later in life. We're mostly just connecting the dots, and trying to determine where those dots actually are.

this isn't the Stasi thread...

Which is why I'm going to ask the mods to merge this recent discussion with the old thread.

[Edit]
Perhaps we could hold off on the GDR discussion for just a bit until the mods have a chance to do just that. I've PMd the details to sittingbison.

 

[D-Queued]

I'm not sure anyone is making the argument that whatever doping Jan was exposed to as a youth was directly responsible for his results later in life. We're mostly just connecting the dots, and trying to determine where those dots actually are.


Which is why I'm going to ask the mods to merge this recent discussion with the old thread.

[Edit]
Perhaps we could hold off on the GDR discussion for just a bit until the mods have a chance to do just that. I've PMd the details to sittingbison.

Ok, but I've got a plane to catch...

Bavarianrider;

Surely you real1ze, given your handle, that the System - including Ulle's school - was not shut down until 1991.

And, you probably also realize that the legacy still continued for years later.

It seems odd that a frequent visitor to Bavaria, who can only count to 100 in German, would know more about this than a resident.

Just saying.

Dave.

 

[coinneach]

Well kids were doped secretly in the GDR.
Anyway, a 16 year old heavily anabolica doped swimmer who wins olympic gold at age 22. Surley he benefited of early doping.
A 23 year old cyclist who might have gotten something ( wouldn't know what, though) at age 15. Not so much

You are so off beam.
To help you understand, read about a cyclist not from Germany: macro pantani in matt rendels book.
The steroids given him as a kid developed muscles that enabled him to make most use of doping later on

 

[Le breton]

I am a bit disappointed with this thread.
I was hoping to gain some hard knowledge about Jan Ullrich's doping history, but i really didn't.

Ignorant coming in, ignorant going out.

Will have to wait until Ullrich himself speaks out, if I live that long.

The only thing I learned is about the extent of the Stasi's involvement in the GDR doping program.

Of course I knew about the doping program itself and its worldwide exports after 1989.
Somehow I have the feeling that consistent/heavy doping of road cyclists at a young age would be a certain recipe for failure, but I might be wrong.

I will amend that to "almost certain recipe for failure" after reading Coinneach just above.

 

[Neworld]

I am a bit disappointed with this thread.
I was hoping to gain some hard knowledge about Jan Ullrich's doping history, but i really didn't.

Ignorant coming in, ignorant going out.

Will have to wait until Ullrich himself speaks out, if I live that long.

The only thing I learned is about the extent of the Stasi's involvement in the GDR doping program.

Of course I knew about the doping program itself and its worldwide exports after 1989.
Somehow I have the feeling that consistent/heavy doping of road cyclists at a young age would be a certain recipe for failure, but I might be wrong.

I will amend that to "almost certain recipe for failure" after reading Coinneach just above.

This will be moved to the other thread too...but...
Some things in life are best 'related' to other comparables. Did the Soviets, Chinese, American, Eastern Bloc countries dope similarly, slightly less or never. I would think that there was no significan difference in the 1988 Olympics. Going forward I would bet that the 'have' countries like the USA doped at least if not more than other countries for Olympics beyond 1988.

As for Jan and him having a 'potential' advantage because he may have had some dope (unknown protocols?) since he was 16-ish. What are people suggesting he had a 5, 10, 15% benefit because he may have had more dope earlier? Did he dope more that sacred Jens Voigt? Ekimov? Lance? Can we agree that Jan was superior to Jens and they grew up together. Did they receive the same juice? Comparables right? I am sure we can think of other comparables no?

Jens
Early life[edit]Voigt was born in Grevesmühlen, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, about 100 km north-east of Hamburg, East Germany, in the same area as Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich. Voigt was encouraged by his parents to participate in sports, since he often got into troubles as a youngster thanks to his excessive energy. His early performance indicated he had good endurance potential, and he joined a national sports school at age 14 and trained in cycling and track and field.[5]

 

[kingjr]

what kind of bs is it. multiple examples of absolute topriders being sick not dropping like a stone, purito and rujano 2011 are prime examples. also ullrich 2003 tour

Ullrich had a bad blood bag in 2003.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Ok, but I've got a plane to catch...

Bavarianrider;

Surely you real1ze, given your handle, that the System - including Ulle's school - was not shut down until 1991.

And, you probably also realize that the legacy still continued for years later.

It seems odd that a frequent visitor to Bavaria, who can only count to 100 in German, would know more about this than a resident.

Just saying.

Dave.

The school may not have been shut down, but the the doping programs for cycling kids (If there ever was one), surely was. Or where would teh money for the drugs have come from?

 

[D-Queued]

The school may not have been shut down, but the the doping programs for cycling kids (If there ever was one), surely was. Or where would teh money for the drugs have come from?

Can you please check into your own history before you post about it.

Dave.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Can you please check into your own history before you post about it.

Dave.

I think it's rather you.

So tell me who was running and financing those secret doping programms after November 89 when the regime was gone?

 

[python]

I think people are mis- reading the Bavarian Rider...he did not say ulrich was Dope free...
He argued, civilly at that, however mistaken or not that might be, that jan was talented enough
To have clinched the doping era where was an integral part but with arguably, superior Talent. I don't find this argument base free. however, to be fair, in terms of solid researched science, an anabolic steroid coping might have benefited him for many years
to come...thus,ulrich
could indeed have been the benefactor.

 

[D-Queued]

I think it's rather you.

So tell me who was running and financing those secret doping programms after November 89 when the regime was gone?

Have you ever heard of Wikipedia?

"...on 26 August 1993, after the former GDR had disbanded itself to accede to the Federal Republic of Germany in 1990, the records were opened and the evidence was there that the Stasi, the GDR state secret police, supervised systematic doping of East German athletes from 1971 until reunification in 1990. ...

You do know when Reunification completed, correct? Would that be 3 October? One year after November 89?

Of course, that doesn't mean that the entire doping program, apparatus, participants and activities were completely disbanded, now does it?


From a 2002 Article:

"...In the former East Germany, athletes were often forced to take performance enhancing drugs for years on end, and last year, the government reach an agreement to provide former athletes with a total of 2 million euro ($2.045 million) in compensation. Yet, despite the international attention the East German abuses received, doping continues to be a problem for a reunified Germany. Just a few weeks ago, former Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich admitted to having taken amphetamines, and wrestler Alexander Leipold lost his Sydney Olympics gold medal after he tested positive for steroid use. ..."

Hmmm... doping continued, and Ullrich admitted...

What a surprise.

Dave.

 

[Neworld]

Have you ever heard of Wikipedia?

Hmmm... doping continued, and Ullrich admitted...

What a surprise.

Dave.

I don't want to speak for Bavarian...but maybe he's saying that the one year difference that the program was shut down was around the time that JU was 15-16, and doesn't necessarily mean JU was mainlining what the E.German doping overlords were dispensing.

Optically for me, and maybe others, we have no idea how much GH, Test...JU received before his 16th Birthday. Maybe a little, maybe a lot.

Scientifically T causes early skeletal devo and fusion making more compact and shorter individuals, whereas rhGH can accelerate height...What was JU exposed to T, GH or both? His 6'0" height is so average it doesn't directly fit anything actually...but this is a non-scientific comment.

More to the point tho is that I am sure that we could find 15-20 East German riders in JU's age bracket, that rode professionally (Jens V, E. Zabel, D. Hondo...) that were exposed to the same 'training' protocols in E. Germany and did not amount to JU, or his accomplishments?

The question is why? And, maybe that is what LeMond was alluding to. We will never know but one could argue that Jenzie was never a GT rival, why not? He was exposed to the same methods as Jan, no?

JU latest DUI has further eroded my opinion of him...wake the f34k up Jan.

 

[D-Queued]

I don't want to speak for Bavarian...but maybe he's saying that the one year difference that the program was shut down was around the time that JU was 15-16, and doesn't necessarily mean JU was mainlining what the E.German doping overlords were dispensing.

Optically for me, and maybe others, we have no idea how much GH, Test...JU received before his 16th Birthday. Maybe a little, maybe a lot.

Scientifically T causes early skeletal devo and fusion making more compact and shorter individuals, whereas rhGH can accelerate height...What was JU exposed to T, GH or both? His 6'0" height is so average it doesn't directly fit anything actually...but this is a non-scientific comment.

More to the point tho is that I am sure that we could find 15-20 East German riders in JU's age bracket, that rode professionally (Jens V, E. Zabel, D. Hondo...) that were exposed to the same 'training' protocols in E. Germany and did not amount to JU, or his accomplishments?

The question is why? And, maybe that is what LeMond was alluding to. We will never know but one could argue that Jenzie was never a GT rival, why not? He was exposed to the same methods as Jan, no?

JU latest DUI has further eroded my opinion of him...wake the f34k up Jan.

Anything is possible, right?

Like Jan could have been the only child athlete selected for a 14.25 school, aka a doping academy, that wasn't doped.

Maybe...

And, he could have been the only child athlete selected for one of those acadamies that wasn't doped and then who also reached such extraordinary heights.

Maybe...

Even though he doped much, much later, maybe he didn't dope at all until then?

Maybe...

And, maybe there is no reason that he was one of two former E German athletes cited in that 2002 article about the former Stasi program. Maybe there was no connection, whatsoever.

Maybe...

Maybe the admission about amphetamines at that time (2002), was also just out of the blue and completely unconnected with any prior, ongoing or future doping.

Maybe...

Then again. Maybe it is just me, but I would find it far easier to believe that he was the best cyclist of his generation, given how much doping made racehorses out of donkeys, than believe Ullrich wasn't being doped when he attended an East German doping school.

Maybe it is just me. Maybe.

Dave.