Lidl-Trek (no longer Radioshack-Leopard Trek)

[DominicDecoco]

Why should Fuglsang as a domestique stay in the group? Because it was the last day in the race, there were no other days to save up energy for.

No it wasn't. It was stage 8 out of 9. And even if it was the last stage it doesn't make sense at all. A domestique that isn't riding for both leader and GC, but only the leader, shouldn't save anything just to be able to stay in main group after his work was done, meaning he could have made more of an effort pacing. That's nonsense.

 

[Sophistic]

kloden is a stronger rider than fuglsang in theory, but obviously not when he is in "i dont give a s...cause my contract isnt running out" mood.

 

[cineteq]

A German Leopard spinoff brewing
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sch...&ns_source=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

 

[OctaBech]

Did you

But honestly - how many riders see it as their first obligation to hunt down their captain when he attacks?

Completely agree with you that Fuglsang wasn't of much use in that situation - no one would be. If you meant that he should have attacked at a later point and tried to bridge the gap, then maybe - but most of the time you still wouldn't want to do that as you still risk two things: Dragging others with you and increasing the general pace of the group. If either happened it would not be of help - quite the opposite - and it be wasted energy at the same time.

What would have been helpful is if he had attacked prior to Schleck and so would have been up the road if and when Schleck attacked in addition to putting pressure on GC as well as Fuglsang wasn't that far down in time IIRC.

Had he attacked prior to Schleck and had he then been unable to help when Schleck had bridged up, then I'd have agreed completely with you.

I agree that we do not get to see that often (Fabian would and has), but then again it's not often we get to see this type of attack.

I admit there's the possibility that Kim A's plan was a fluke because he had miscalculated the distance between the mountains. But had there been one rider which could have followed Fränk or caught up on the descent (where Fränk kept looking back), then it would have been very possible to take the 11 sec on the yellow jersey.

It's not like Fuglsang has been badly treated on RsNT, he was made captain of the Giro team and It's only in JB's interest to get the best possible result in the tour. If it had been as simple as the sponsors wanted Horner, then some other rider would have been replaced.

No it wasn't. It was stage 8 out of 9. And even if it was the last stage it doesn't make sense at all. A domestique that isn't riding for both leader and GC, but only the leader, shouldn't save anything just to be able to stay in main group after his work was done, meaning he could have made more of an effort pacing. That's nonsense.

Had to go back and see where the misunderstanding happened. Why the heck would you even use his stage 8 performance?

a. It has nothing to do with my argument.
b. It was nothing special in comparison to the Sky team where the domestiques actually stayed.

And I'm not saying Fuglsang should have stayed with the front group, I said he should catch up with Fränk, who clearly needed the help according the the layout of the route (obviously this was know in advance) and Fränk straight out looked for this help (which sparked the mandatory "no Fränk, Andy isn't here" jokes).

To do anything in the mountains the team will have to throw the Sky train, but Fuglsang has never ever shown he could do something like that. In Tour de Suisse Fuglsang didn't even show signs of being able to stay with the TdF Sky train. Horner and Klöden at least have the history of being able to follow (and beat) such a train.

This is the way I see it and my reasoning doesn't rely on tinfoil expendable Dane hat logic.

 

[OctaBech]

A German Leopard spinoff brewing
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sch...&ns_source=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

I wonder if it's just the Leopards or if the RsNT riders sense it's time to abandon ship too.

 

[cineteq]

I wonder if it's just the Leopards or if the RsNT riders sense it's time to abandon ship too.

Fuglsang, Cancellara, Voigt, Gallopin are friends...not sure about Klöden though. One thing's for sure, Horner is not going to be there

 

[DominicDecoco]

We are obviously talking about two different stages since the one I'm talking about, stage 8, a 'catch up' with Frank wouldn't make sense.

This is the stage I'm talking about. What Jakob does here is more than Klödi has done all season.

Begins at 25:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zUL1Cze29U

 

[DominicDecoco]

Had to go back and see where the misunderstanding happened. Why the heck would you even use his stage 8 performance?

Bacause you had made your mind up about Jakob's current abilities and the reason why he isn't in the Tour-team only through that very last stage in Suisse, when he in fact did his job the day before. As you can see here. What Jakob does here in this little video in pretty much twice the effort than, for example, Klödi has done all season.

Begins at 25:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zUL1Cze29U

 

[BillytheKid]

Bacause you had made your mind up about Jakob's current abilities and the reason why he isn't in the Tour-team only through that very last stage in Suisse, when he in fact did his job the day before. As you can see here. What Jakob does here in this little video in pretty much twice the effort than, for example, Klödi has done all season.

Begins at 25:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zUL1Cze29U

I think Klöden is a sleeper for the Tour, and I will say it again, he was a no-where man last year in the Suisse and look very good at the Tour...always at the front and easy on the the uphill finishes until the crash. He won the Basque last year and then went sleeper until the Tour. Injuries prevented anything early this season. Just that one pull on the Verbier told me everything. You have to look at a rider's face. You can tell when someone's bad or just training.

Also his 7th in the ITT at the Suisse looks much better than any TT so far this year. 31 seconds down. That's coming up. It does not matter what he's done so far this year. It's what he capable of doing.

 

[pugdog]

Fuglsang, Cancellara, Voigt, Gallopin are friends...not sure about Klöden though. One thing's for sure, Horner is not going to be there

It was Gallopin who brought Horner over to Europe in his FdJ days.

 

[Publicus]

So the Hog has pulled out of the Tour because of the investigation. Does he stay away from ALL races now?

 

[OctaBech]

Bacause you had made your mind up about Jakob's current abilities and the reason why he isn't in the Tour-team only through that very last stage in Suisse, when he in fact did his job the day before. As you can see here. What Jakob does here in this little video in pretty much twice the effort than, for example, Klödi has done all season.

Begins at 25:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zUL1Cze29U

No, I'm a big fan of Fuglsang and would love to see him in TdF, but I'm also a realist. You chose to focus on the stage where Fuglsang did a decent job, but you refuse to see the performance on those stages in the light of the Sky train the team will be up against.
You keep insisting on only comparing Fuglsang's performance with Klöden and Horner's current performance, neglecting that Fuglsang unlike those two has yet to prove himself in the mountains. The last stage of Tour de Suisse was Fuglsangs golden opportunity to prove himself, that he actually can make a difference in the mountains, but he failed.
On that basis JB has simply decided to gamble on the old and proven (Klöden, Horner, Voigt,..) instead of a younger guy with great but unproven potential.

Fuglsang was straight out dropped today during the Danish national championships (hilly route), which talks in the defense of JB's decision.

 

[zigmeister]

Yes, because it's always standard procedure that when your captain attacks from the front you try to do everything to catch up with him. That's so brilliant because it at the same time will make it easier for the other contenders to keep up with him...

Oh, wait a minute - maybe that's not so smart after all? Maybe that's why it's actually not the norm after all...

If your sorry "teammate-helper" can't keep a solid speed up the climbs and pace you, why bother waiting? It will slow you down?

But your theory is just sit/wait, let your guy do the pacing, then other guys attack, go off the front, but let's just sit on your guy's wheel and hope he doesn't go slower? How is that a tactic.

Very few guys can maintain and stay with their top climbers, why is that? Because they would be the best climbers obviously. So they aren't as fast, and after awhile the better climber will find them only useful to a point, then you have to leave and attack and set your own pace.

It really is that simple.

 

[DominicDecoco]

Fuglsang was straight out dropped today during the Danish national championships (hilly route), which talks in the defense of JB's decision.

Harsh! Ended 6th without any team mates.

 

[screaming fist]

Linus apparently feeling like Jakob
http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/sportnews_75829.htm (German)

 

[DominicDecoco]

Linus apparently feeling like Jakob
http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/sportnews_75829.htm (German)

Did not read. But I'm surprised that Linus is one of the last to complain on that team.

 

[screaming fist]

Did not read. But I'm surprised that Linus is one of the last to complain on that team.

Haha! But I really have to say he's been a lot less complaining for the last two years or so... Maybe he's finally realised he isn't the next big thing.

Article isn't really worth the read. He's unhappy not to be selected for France after being so good in Suisse and National Champs. Doesn't understand someone who wasn't on the longlist suddenly goes to the Tour (all though that part sounds a bit like the author of the article made it up). Finally some wild speculation if he will ride for the new German team with the Schlecks.

 

[DominicDecoco]

Haha! But I really have to say he's been a lot less complaining for the last two years or so... Maybe he's finally realised he isn't the next big thing.

Article isn't really worth the read. He's unhappy not to be selected for France after being so good in Suisse and National Champs. Doesn't understand someone who wasn't on the longlist suddenly goes to the Tour (all though that part sounds a bit like the author of the article made it up). Finally some wild speculation if he will ride for the new German team with the Schlecks.

Ok. Cheers for that.

 

[BillytheKid]

Did not read. But I'm surprised that Linus is one of the last to complain on that team.

Perhaps with all the complaining from a group a riders that want their friends on the team tells all. However, the title sponsor is US, and you would think they could afford Horner spot. His second at TA and consistancy, top three again, on the Arrate stage in the Basque, shows he is can still climb.

Horner faces a lot, being the only American on a team that is largely the old Leopard, but I think we will see him back in his role of of dommestique and maybe an oportunity on one particular uphill finish.

Fuglsang is the odd-man-out on a team that, I admit, was a strange mix as has been so endlessling discussed. The reason given for Horner not being on the long list was more than confusing considering that Jens, who also rode the Cali, made it, but also did not ride the Suisse or Dauphine?

Fuglsand is a rider for the future. This could be Horner's swan song.

 

[screaming fist]

I think Jens hasn't been riding Suisse last year as well as they figured out it's better for preparation to do Ster ZLM instead?

I still think JB was a bit dissappointed by Horner's California. He wanted the sole leadership and it didn't work out. But that's just a guess by me.
Jens, however, showed in California he still has it concerning his role in France. He gave everything for Horner and finished second in the time trial.

We'll have to see how Horner's form is in France but like many, I don't see anything Gerdemann or Fuglsang might do that he can't.

 

[BillytheKid]

I think Jens hasn't been riding Suisse last year as well as they figured out it's better for preparation to do Ster ZLM instead?

I still think JB was a bit dissappointed by Horner's California. He wanted the sole leadership and it didn't work out. But that's just a guess by me.
Jens, however, showed in California he still has it concerning his role in France. He gave everything for Horner and finished second in the time trial.

We'll have to see how Horner's form is in France but like many, I don't see anything Gerdemann or Fuglsang might do that he can't.

The Cali was a no go for Horner becase he did not have a second 5K finishing climb at 9.5 %, namely the Sierra Road. That and his ITT has fallen off after being away from racing after last year's crash. He can still climb and is not unfamilar with playing the role of domestique. In fact, that's a plus over Fuglsang. Another one plus is his former director Gallopin will be there in place of Johan and understands his abilities better.

 

[OctaBech]

Harsh! Ended 6th without any team mates.

It's not about where he placed but how it happened. Fuglsang was in the 4 man front group but was straight out dropped by lesser riders like Nicki Sorensen and André Steensen (who Saxo Bank decided not to resign last year). Afterward Fuglsang was caught by two riders which both passed him at the finish; CAS was one of those two riders.

 

[DominicDecoco]

It's not about where he placed but how it happened. Fuglsang was in the 4 man front group but was straight out dropped by lesser riders like Nicki Sorensen and André Steensen (who Saxo Bank decided not to resign last year). Afterward Fuglsang was caught by two riders which both passed him at the finish; CAS was one of those two riders.

Which leads me back to him being alone without any team mates for the entire race of 200km.

 

[T-Nielsen]

It's not about where he placed but how it happened. Fuglsang was in the 4 man front group but was straight out dropped by lesser riders like Nicki Sorensen and André Steensen (who Saxo Bank decided not to resign last year). Afterward Fuglsang was caught by two riders which both passed him at the finish; CAS was one of those two riders.

Fuglsang had been working like a pig the entire race, attacking as to make the race hard, covering attacks from different Saxo, GLM (?) and CWO riders.

 

[OctaBech]

Which leads me back to him being alone without any team mates for the entire race of 200km.

Nicki's team mates were only of value on paper as they slept during the race. If not mistaken, one of the GML domestiques also passed Fuglsang.

Fuglsang had been working like a pig the entire race, attacking as to make the race hard, covering attacks from different Saxo, GLM (?) and CWO riders.

GML I think (Glud & Mastrand LRÖ).

It's important to point out that I'm not calling a flop, but just pointing out that his performance now and during Tour de Suisse has been on the level where he can't claim to be more deserving of a spot on the TdF roster than those riders which were picked. Yes Popo is no captain, but is Fuglsang a bottleboy?
Had Fuglsang been riding on a lesser team like (the current) Saxo, then he would automatically been on the TdF team and perhaps even had Haedo replaced with some personal domestiques.