Liege Bastogne Liege-7 hour monument, Sunday, April 21, 2024

[Netserk]

What does conwidker mean?

24 consecutive finished stage races with a stage win or overall win doesn't scream ordinary to me.

Consider.

 

[houtdffan]

wish Remco were here. Race played out almost exactly like the last 2 did. Favorite attacks on Redoutte

Suspect we would have seen Remco and Tadej not able to drop the other and this would have come down to a sprint between the two. Except, they would have been 5-10 minutes ahead of the chasing group

 

[Sciatic]

I have no disrespect for Bardet but his second place is a bit like VdP's third place, i.e. a roll of the dice based on the tactics & movement of others. Carapaz wasted a load of energy chasing Pog & then the others wasted time looking at each other after la Côte de la Roche-aux-Faucons, i.e. which allowed Bardet to build his definitive gap.

It's why IMO it's impossible to extrapolate his performance here into something in the Giro or Tour.

There was basically Pog... & then the rest.

Definitely not my take: he was in the chasing group of 4 trying to at least staunch the deficit going out further, and then droppped all of his group-mates on the RAF. Strong ride.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Should be block headwind early on la Redoute and the tailwind at the end of it.

Fell asleep with this being the last post I saw. Wake up and see that Red Rick's been banned. Easy win for Pog it was then.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Fell asleep with this being the last post I saw. Wake up and see that Red Rick's been banned. Easy win for Pog it was then.

Daaamn they got Red Rick? It’s a dog eat dog world

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Rick hinted he asked for the ban himself in the other forum.

I have no disrespect for Bardet but his second place is a bit like VdP's third place, i.e. a roll of the dice based on the tactics & movement of others. Carapaz wasted a load of energy chasing Pog & then the others wasted time looking at each other after la Côte de la Roche-aux-Faucons, i.e. which allowed Bardet to build his definitive gap.

It's why IMO it's impossible to extrapolate his performance here into something in the Giro or Tour.

There was basically Pog... & then the rest.

Bardet was among the ~5 strongest in the race and made the right moves. Van der Poel was among the ~50 strongest in the race and made no moves. So to compare them is quite the stretch.

 

[BigCoward]

For me there are big 5. Roglic is a great rider with a nig palmares, but he has no get any performwnce againt the other 5 at his best where I say: OMG. The big 5 are young talented riders with an special way to race. Roglic is not different of the previous generation...he IS good at stage races, but he has lost Tour againt Pogacar, and this one againts Vingegard...he was close to lose the Giro againts Thomas...you cant conwidker so special...he won Líeja that way, Allaphillipe fail...He woule have been the best in another era, but for me we have big 5.

If there's a big 5 it's not roglic that drops out it's WvA, his palmares sucks compared to the others and for his talent.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So Teddy wins easily, surprise! Congrats on his 6th monument win, tying with MVP and only one behind Boonen/Cancellara in this century. Strong performance indicating that everything is on schedule regarding the Giro. Smart ride by MVP - he didn't want to blow up on climbs trying to follow small boys so instead limited his losses and made up time on the last section getting a podium spot the way I expected (sprint from a group). Obviously part of the peleton (including MVP and Pidcock) had to chase the front group and I feel that it especially affected Pidcock (who made some instense efforts to bridge the gap) regarding his podium chances.

 

[Taxus4a]

If there's a big 5 it's not roglic that drops out it's WvA, his palmares sucks compared to the others and for his talent.

For me is not a question of palmares. Wout is almost as good as Van der Poel at ciclocroos Pavé and sprint, but he can win at Mont Ventoux, he is better than VDP for the rest of cycling, clearly, not by a little, in the mountains..so for me is better cyclist than MVDP. I remember Rigo saying he is the best cyclist of the world...I am not agree, but I understand his arguments. Wout in fact is the best example of this new supergeneration

 

[dazaau]

For me is not a question of palmares. Wout is almost as good as Van der Poel at ciclocroos Pavé and sprint, but he can win at Mont Ventoux, he is better than VDP for the rest of cycling, clearly, not by a little, in the mountains..so for me is better cyclist than MVDP. I remember Rigo saying he is the best cyclist of the world...I am not agree, but I understand his arguments. Wout in fact is the best example of this new supergeneration

While I agree WVA is a monster talent, I'm not sure there is any meaningful measure beyond palmares, the whole point of racing bikes is to win.

I am still hopeful Wout's palmares will grow to better reflect his talent, but it is genuinely hard when others have that little edge at different races. Depending which monument he starts he has to beat pog or remco in their favorite territory or mvdp at his.

 

[Bolder]

While I agree WVA is a monster talent, I'm not sure there is any meaningful measure beyond palmares, the whole point of racing bikes is to win.

I am still hopeful Wout's palmares will grow to better reflect his talent, but it is genuinely hard when others have that little edge at different races. Depending which monument he starts he has to beat pog or remco in their favorite territory or mvdp at his.

I would have disagreed even as recently as a year ago, but I'm starting to come around to this viewpoint. If you don't win races that you should, by definition you're not realizing your potential. By the same token there are lesser riders who win more often than they should because they are tactically quite good. I'm thinking of Carapaz, although recently he hasn't shown much.

 

[BigCoward]

I'm still hopeful he can win Olympics or worlds this year, that would make a huge difference to his 'bridesmaid' status.

 

[shadowrider]

Pogačar doing what everyone expected of him, a solo from La Redoute while putting lots of time into his rivals and frankly I don't think anyone would have beaten him today, even Remco.

Bardet with a great second place, I wasn't expecting this from him at this point of his career but he showed that he still has it and sharing a monument podium with 6 time winners, Pogačar and Van der Poel has to be one of the highest points of his career.

Van der Poel did a really clever race, apart from the fact that he got caught up on that crash but he managed to use his endurance and sprint to finish ahead of many riders that climbed better than him. I still don't think that he can beat Pogačar or peak shape Remco here but if he peaks for this and Pogačar skips the race, who knows.

Honourable mention to Carapaz that is showing quite good legs while coming back from injury and even though he couldn't follow Pogačar at least he tried. Bernal attack up Roche Aux Faucons was also quite nice to see even though he didn't had much left in the tank.

Bardet, at 34, ending second (his best result ever in a monument) and VDP (plus 10 kg) third (after never have been in the race) proves Pogacar didn't have strong opposition. So, I'm convinced Evenepoel could have gone with Pogacar on la Redoute. But I agree that Pogacar probably would have won outsprinting Evenepoel at the finish.

 

[Lequack]

Chapeau on a beautiful win by Pog.

 

[wansteadimp]

I would have disagreed even as recently as a year ago, but I'm starting to come around to this viewpoint. If you don't win races that you should, by definition you're not realizing your potential. By the same token there are lesser riders who win more often than they should because they are tactically quite good. I'm thinking of Carapaz, although recently he hasn't shown much.

Tacitcally astute riders' acumen is no longer able to overcome the difference in physical ability between the lesser riders and Pog, Remco and MVDP - the power hammer goes down and everyone else is done.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

Tacitcally astute riders' acumen is no longer able to overcome the difference in physical ability between the lesser riders and Pog, Remco and MVDP - the power hammer goes down and everyone else is done.

While I agree with this to some extent I think its not necessarily a done deal

Where Pog, Remco MDVP have the advantage is the power they yield in making the gap but maintaining the gap could be put at their rivals feet to some extent.

heads go down, riders give up , no one wants to bring the good sprinter to the line for 2nd and while no rider is unbeatable there is alot of riding in the peloton that makes them seems so

If there was an organised chase with 6 to 8 strong riders of course they could bring Pog and Remco back ...the difference in riding strength is not a big as perceived

The current racing has alot to do with the rest of the peloton that cannot get some better tactics together to bring back a rider after their big attack

They try to match the attack and blow (carapaz) , their team are not strong enough so they dont organise with others, They dont try other things

Everyone knew where Pog was going to attack yesterday so why not shoot some strong riders up the road early on

I put it to you that the strong guys seem invincible because the others have no plan , cohesion or tactics ...no one is unbeatable unless you think so

 

[Blanco]

For me is not a question of palmares. Wout is almost as good as Van der Poel at ciclocroos Pavé and sprint, but he can win at Mont Ventoux, he is better than VDP for the rest of cycling, clearly, not by a little, in the mountains..so for me is better cyclist than MVDP. I remember Rigo saying he is the best cyclist of the world...I am not agree, but I understand his arguments. Wout in fact is the best example of this new supergeneration

Yeah, he's almost as good as Van Der Poel in cross, but it is 6-3 in WC titles and 160-80 in wins. He's also almost good at cobbles as Van Der Poel, yet it is 5-0 in cobbled monuments, and 7-1 in biggest races.
Yes he is better than Van Der Poel in mountains, but it is not Van Der Poel he should be better in order to win, but Pogacar, Remco, Roglic, etc.
Yes he can win Mont Ventoux, but only if top dogs are not racing.

 

[Blanco]

Rick hinted he asked for the ban himself in the other forum.


Bardet was among the ~5 strongest in the race and made the right moves. Van der Poel was among the ~50 strongest in the race and made no moves. So to compare them is quite the stretch.

He actually did. He broke away from the group after RaF bringing couple of guys with him and bridged to that group behind Bardet. That move gave him the podium place.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Impressive win. But not completely unpreceeded. 1998 Bartoli was kind of equally impressive, for instance.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Impressive win. But not completely unpreceeded. 1998 Bartoli was kind of equally impressive, for instance.

He was otherworldy among otherworlders that day.

 

[Blanco]

Impressive win. But not completely unpreceeded. 1998 Bartoli was kind of equally impressive, for instance.

Remco was equally impressive last two years. Let's not pretend we haven't seen it recently.

 

[Sciatic]

While I agree with this to some extent I think its not necessarily a done deal

Where Pog, Remco MDVP have the advantage is the power they yield in making the gap but maintaining the gap could be put at their rivals feet to some extent.

heads go down, riders give up , no one wants to bring the good sprinter to the line for 2nd and while no rider is unbeatable there is alot of riding in the peloton that makes them seems so

If there was an organised chase with 6 to 8 strong riders of course they could bring Pog and Remco back ...the difference in riding strength is not a big as perceived

The current racing has alot to do with the rest of the peloton that cannot get some better tactics together to bring back a rider after their big attack

They try to match the attack and blow (carapaz) , their team are not strong enough so they dont organise with others, They dont try other things

Everyone knew where Pog was going to attack yesterday so why not shoot some strong riders up the road early on

I put it to you that the strong guys seem invincible because the others have no plan , cohesion or tactics ...no one is unbeatable unless you think so

It doesn’t help when only 1 of the dominant riders is present. I think, because of these rider personalities and style, we won’t get as much of the situation where huge favorites are looking at each other and allowing other racers to take advantage (e.g. Carapaz’s Giro win) But it’s still possible if only the top guys suited to a race would all show up at those races.

 

[proffate]

He actually did. He broke away from the group after RaF bringing couple of guys with him and bridged to that group behind Bardet. That move gave him the podium place.

on top of which, why are we comparing MVDP and Bardet? Bardet is not going to win a la MVDP and MVDP is not going to win a la Bardet. We are better off comparing MVDP and Pidcock. Piddles claims to have had the best legs of his life, but he got impatient and tried to bridge to the front group. That cost him any chance of victory regardless of whether Bahrain and co got to draft the convoy. MVDP was nothing if not patient (for two straight races), and he got the maximum result he could. A podium in Liege can make a lesser rider's entire career! Like Mathieu kept saying in interviews, you have to gamble. Piddles was perhaps a bit too desperate to win; MVDP is becoming wiser; this is a positive takeaway for MVDP fans.

Of course Pog never has to gamble as long as his entire deck is aces.

 

[proffate]

If there was an organised chase with 6 to 8 strong riders of course they could bring Pog and Remco back ...the difference in riding strength is not a big as perceived

haha what? Pog having the strength of 8 (elite) men is not a big enough difference for you?

 

[Oldermanish]

haha what? Pog having the strength of 8 (elite) men is not a big enough difference for you?

A 274 km race with 2800m of crappy-road climbing doesn't usually have 6-8 guys strong enough to chase. That's my point about Tadej and Remco's late ability: it's a simple 30-40km tempo effort against whomever behind you can match your pace. Realistically if Tadej or Remco know their reserves their biggest concern isn't the chasers; it's overcooking a corner. The guys behind might take coordinated turns in an attempt to retrieve those two (or one) out front....for about two turns each if the there isn't a significant drop in the gap.

Then they start looking for the fastest wheel to lead them to a podium place sprint. There are very "if" situations in that kind of race and with that level of leader. MvP and Wout do the same thing on terrain that favors their skills, too. It's not even extraterrestrial if any of those guys have trained for the effort and have confidence.