liggett and sherwen corporate shills

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Aug 13, 2009
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thehog said:
I think they should declare their paid interests. If CES or Armstrong is paying them then they need to declare it.

In terms of the impartiality; when the Floyd revelations came out in 2010 most news organizations "reporting" the news would provide both sides - ie Floyd says they doped whilst Armstrong denies any wrong-doing and has never tested positive.

Whilst Phil, Paul and Bobke thought it would be a good idea to spend 10 minutes on Versus telling the world all of Floyd ills and that he has a "book deal" and his "credibility" was shot. It sounded strangely similar to the press conference Armstrong gave.

It really was poor journalism if you want to call it that. If they are being paid by Armstrong say so but to pretend they're part of the media and the opinions given are "true" then I think that’s truly poor ethics.
Phill has made some good $$$ from Wonderboy. Lots of foundation speaking engagements.

 
Aug 13, 2009
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thehog said:
Who's the lady getting the "bear hug" from Phil?
Wonderboy's personal photographer Liz Kreutz.....doesn't every rider have a personal photographer who follows them everywhere to churn out content for groupies?
 
Race Radio said:
Wonderboy's personal photographer Liz Kreutz.....doesn't every rider have a personal photographer who follows them everywhere to churn out content for groupies?
Ahhh.... I see.

I do know of her. She produced the Comeback 2.0 photography book.

Have to say this photo looks a little wrong in a creepy way. How old is Phil these days?

Phil certainly has been seduced and sold his soul. Thankfully he's at the end of his career.



Ps Good to see the wine flowing in abundudence. Like the GFD never happened.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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9000ft said:
Add something to the discussion??? In the clinic?? Sorry, but there is so little discussed here with any semblance of even handedness that it's almost impossible to participate in a serious discussion. Like just about all other threads in the clinic, this one is just an opportunity for the regulars to express how much they hate someone because they are not up to their standards. When I said, "tough crowd here" that was a serious statement. I really don't think according to the prevalent (not total) CN clinic orthodoxy anyone, or at least almost anyone thinks anybody in cycling is worth any admiration. No one, be it rider, director, commentator, media, or hell, just about all the fans except those few who are undeluded true and pure cycling fans (according to the orthodoxy) are anyhting but chamois sniffing fanboys.

Sorry, but it's really difficult to have a real, respectful conversation when that's the dynamic. For me, it's become just entertainment. A good portion of the folks who post here seem to take it as almost life and death.
You say "thats a serious statement" - actually, its a very revealing statement.

If you think exposing P&P's objectivity, bias and integrity for supporting a fraud is a "tough" standard then it helps explain why you are so angry over something that you claim is merely entertainment.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Wonderboy's personal photographer Liz Kreutz.....doesn't every rider have a personal photographer who follows them everywhere to churn out content for groupies?
You're just JEALOUS of the groupies because you have to rely on random people sitting in restaurants and titty bars to take pictures for YOUR Lance collection. Who took that picture that you posted anyway?
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Wallace said:
I am completely puzzled by your metaphor. So you're the guy totally out of control driving a machine too fast and a complete danger to everyone near him, 95% of the people in the clinic are the guy who just because he happened to be standing in the wrong place is in danger of being killed by your reckless incompetence, and the moderator is the guy who saves the bystander's life. So your point is... that you ought to be banned?
I said: "IMO anyone who dishes out this level of hate towards cyclists, commentators, et cetera, ought not be allowed in here."

I think I'm being abundantly clear as to who I think ought to be banned.

I seriously dislike fakes.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Race Radio said:
I certainly agree that the hate toward LeMond, Betsy, Simeoni, Tyler, Floyd, Mike Anderson, etc. can get out of control and often irrational......but certainly it is ok to express our displeasure at the way people like Ferrari, Fuentes, and Bruyneel have poisoned the sport while guys like Ligget cheered them on and looked the other way at the obvious.

Should we ignore a national team coach who doped juniors? How about a DS hold tells riders "Take the shot or you do not ride"?

Perhaps you, 9000 feet, and Speedway could give us a list? It would be their first contribution to the forum that is not some form of "You guys suck!"
You know something buddy... Do you REALLY want to change things? Start with yourself.

I could care less about Fuentes, Ferrari or anybody else. What I do care about is the NASTY habit many of yous have of dragging cycling's face through the mud in the process. Deep down inside you know you don't really like cycling.

When I see Ulrich, Pantani, Lance, Alberto, Hamilton, et cetera, I see guys who gave their heart and soul to the sport. And so have the commentators. I have nothing but respect for these people, especially the cyclists.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Se&#241 said:
I said: "IMO anyone who dishes out this level of hate towards cyclists, commentators, et cetera, ought not be allowed in here."
Ignoring the hate part (because that's your strawman) - what you have left out is the word "doping" before all the examples you give.

People dislike doping cyclists - and those that facilitate them - and the reason they do is because those cyclists and facilitators are the ones who damage the sport.


Se&#241 said:
I think I'm being abundantly clear as to who I think ought to be banned.

I seriously dislike fakes.
But doping cyclists (and those that facilitate them) are ok?
 
Señor_Contador said:
When I see Ulrich, Pantani, Lance, Alberto, Hamilton, et cetera, I see guys who gave their heart and soul to the sport. And so have the commentators. I have nothing but respect for these people, especially the cyclists. Let's dish out some respect for these people please.
Maybe they gave heart and soul to the sport, as did the commentators at one time. No one says it's easy to get into pro cycling. However, it would be nice to think that, once they attain a standard, they fight for that standard without cheating or breaking the rules. If someone stuck a motor on their bike, it wouldn't be allowed - unfair advantage. When it gets to the stage of not being able to get a ride without cheating, or not being able to get results without cheating, then something is wrong with the sport.

As for PL's speaking engagements - I'm afraid back scratching goes on everywhere, inside cycling and out. You'd need a change in society to get rid of that. They're not public employees, so they don't have to account for their incomes. There's plenty of 'holidays here, free flights there' going on, I'm sure. You can't expect them to publicly announce when someone gives them a bar of chocolate. Where do you draw the line?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Señor_Contador said:
You know something buddy... Do you REALLY want to change things? Start with yourself.

I could care less about Fuentes, Ferrari or anybody else. What I do care about is the NASTY habit many of yous have of dragging cycling's face through the mud in the process. Deep down inside you know you don't really like cycling.

When I see Ulrich, Pantani, Lance, Alberto, Hamilton, et cetera, I see guys who gave their heart and soul to the sport. And so have the commentators. I have nothing but respect for these people, especially the cyclists.
Just like 9000ft earlier - this is a fascinating insight.
 
Señor_Contador said:
When I see Ulrich, Pantani, Lance, Alberto, Hamilton, et cetera, I see guys who gave their heart and soul to the sport. And so have the commentators. I have nothing but respect for these people, especially the cyclists.
I dont see how sitting in a comfortable studio and getting paid to talk, rather than work for a living, is the equivalent of riding ones guts out through the pain barrier day after day after day.


The riders have given their heart and soul to the sport, but commentators definitely have not. They just take from it.
 
Aug 3, 2010
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Señor_Contador said:
You know something buddy... Do you REALLY want to change things? Start with yourself.

I could care less about Fuentes, Ferrari or anybody else. What I do care about is the NASTY habit many of yous have of dragging cycling's face through the mud in the process. Deep down inside you know you don't really like cycling.

When I see Ulrich, Pantani, Lance, Alberto, Hamilton, et cetera, I see guys who gave their heart and soul to the sport. And so have the commentators. I have nothing but respect for these people, especially the cyclists.
When I see the aformentioned in bold type, I see four names that you correctly point out gave their hearts and souls to the sport, a sport that became very corrupt from the top of the governance down to the leadership of teams, even at low levels. The other name that I see, I know for a fact, with the help and guidance of others, expedited the corruption. If the others are exposed, I will gladly lump them into the same group.
After spending much more than a decade participating in this sport as an elite and a professional, I don't hate cycling, I love it even more now that I know how important it is to make sure the next young talent isn't forced to question whether or not it is worth throwing his leg over the top tube tomorrow for that 4 hour interval workout, when he knows deep down inside that hard work and talent alone may not be enough.
You obviously don't love cycling. You love the entertainment that it provides you and that is fine, but don't go spouting your nonsense to people who do really care about a beautiful sport that you have absolutely no insight into other than that which Liggett and Sherwin, along with miracles and unicorns can provide.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Señor_Contador said:
You know something buddy... Do you REALLY want to change things? Start with yourself.

I could care less about Fuentes, Ferrari or anybody else. What I do care about is the NASTY habit many of yous have of dragging cycling's face through the mud in the process. Deep down inside you know you don't really like cycling.

When I see Ulrich, Pantani, Lance, Alberto, Hamilton, et cetera, I see guys who gave their heart and soul to the sport. And so have the commentators. I have nothing but respect for these people, especially the cyclists.
Really, it is my fault Cycling has been dragged through the mud? Really?

I had nothing to do with this



As we have seen time and again, ignoring the issue only makes it worse.
 
Aug 3, 2009
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Se&#241 said:
I think I'm being abundantly clear as to who I think ought to be banned.
No, you're being vague and ambiguous.

Why don't you just grow a pair and come out and say who you think should get banned? Or are you not willing to risk punitive action yourself?

Nothing like a fake with no backbone coming in under the cover of anonymity spouting vitriol and lecturing the forum on fakes.
 
Apr 10, 2009
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Señor_Contador said:
You know something buddy... Do you REALLY want to change things? Start with yourself.

I could care less about Fuentes, Ferrari or anybody else. What I do care about is the NASTY habit many of yous have of dragging cycling's face through the mud in the process. Deep down inside you know you don't really like cycling.

When I see Ulrich, Pantani, Lance, Alberto, Hamilton, et cetera, I see guys who sold their souls for the sport. And so have the commentators. I have nothing but respect for these people, especially the cyclists.
fixed it for you, dopers don't give a hoot about the sport, they care about themselves and feeding their egos. period
 
May 26, 2010
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slowoldman said:
fixed it for you, dopers don't give a hoot about the sport, they care about themselves and feeding their egos. period
No its not that simple either. But ignoring doping does not fix things. But taking the stars down will convince all the others that it will not be tolerated and it is also not worth it.
 
doolols said:
Maybe they gave heart and soul to the sport, as did the commentators at one time. No one says it's easy to get into pro cycling. However, it would be nice to think that, once they attain a standard, they fight for that standard without cheating or breaking the rules. If someone stuck a motor on their bike, it wouldn't be allowed - unfair advantage. When it gets to the stage of not being able to get a ride without cheating, or not being able to get results without cheating, then something is wrong with the sport.

As for PL's speaking engagements - I'm afraid back scratching goes on everywhere, inside cycling and out. You'd need a change in society to get rid of that. They're not public employees, so they don't have to account for their incomes. There's plenty of 'holidays here, free flights there' going on, I'm sure. You can't expect them to publicly announce when someone gives them a bar of chocolate. Where do you draw the line?
I'm sorry but it's the norm for speakers, commentators & journalists to declare their paid interests. If atravel writer accepts a paid trip to review a city or hotel they state it. If a speaker is paid by a company they also must declare it.

You'll see it at the bottom of most news pieces.

Phil & Paul really are acting as paid advertisers for Mr. Armstrong. This should be declared before making opinion statements on their broadcasts passed off as news reporting.
 
Bicycling: How do you and Paul approach the issue of doping while you’re commentating?

Liggett: It’s difficult for us; we are trapped in the commentary box. We can’t check facts; we can’t go out and speak to someone because we are live. So we have to be careful and go off of the facts that have been reported, rather than the backroom chatter. But doping is deflating and difficult to deal with. One of the biggest disappointments was the terrific comeback of Floyd Landis [on Stage 17 in 2006]. It’s this amazing day, maybe the best since the 1980s, and then months later he says, “Yeah, I cheated.” It makes you feel like you made him into a superhero, and at the end of the day he’s a cheat.

Bicycling: How will you discuss USADA’s doping charges against Lance Armstrong in your broadcast?

Liggett: Well, the bigger story is that Andy Schleck is not riding, and that is taking away from the overall competition at the Tour this year. As for Lance, personally I always wonder about the timing of [the allegations]. They always do it so near the start of the race. They could have done it weeks ago. We have to assess each piece of news as it comes; there’s nothing more you can do. Lance is no longer a rider at the Tour, so I’m not going to discuss it unless some news crops up that is contrary to what we currently know. If it has a place, we will talk about it.

http://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-france/home/tour-american-tv?page=0,1
 
Oct 30, 2011
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D-Queued said:
The royal 'We'. Who is we?

Thanks for posting Phil's update that he hasn't heard anything about Lance doping, ever and won't ever check any facts anyways.

Dave.
Him and Paul?

The guy is clearly a tool, and the sooner they get rid of him, the better. Hard to believe that one of the biggest ever stories about the darker side of cycling has not been mentioned so far in the Tour de France, yet he's okay slagging off everyone but Armstrong.
 
Jan 14, 2011
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people people people

ya gotta dance with the one that brung ya.......

ya know, to the dance..
 
Harmon and Kirby just did a more than passable impression of Liggett and Sherwen.

Only mentioned JV's apparent denial. (ignoring the s of limitation)

Plus Kirby: "The same old usual rubbish at Tour time to try and sell newspapers."
Then they quickly move on.
 

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