Long term effects of doping

[del1962]

We are seeing a lot of cyclists in their late thirties / early forties being competitive

Is it possible that doping when they were younger (particularly EPO in the souped up era) actually allowed them to train more allowing their physiology to change such that they can remain competative against younger cleaner athletes even thought they stopped doping (assuming they stopped)

I am thinking of people like George Hincapie

 

[Dear Wiggo]

We are seeing a lot of cyclists in their late thirties / early forties being competitive

Is it possible that doping when they were younger (particularly EPO in the souped up era) actually allowed them to train more allowing their physiology to change such that they can remain competative against younger cleaner athletes even thought they stopped doping (assuming they stopped)

I am thinking of people like George Hincapie

He's retired.

Still active:

Chris Horner
Jens Voigt

 

[del1962]

He's retired.

Still active:

Chris Horner
Jens Voigt

I wanted to put up someone who we know was doing EPO, I have looked at the retirement age of the greats of the past, it tends to be prior to 35 years of age.

There may be other reasons of course why people are going on longer, so it is just a thought.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Using EPO, testosterone, HGH all suppress your natural production of these hormones.

They help you to train harder and recover faster so its not as if you stop doping your performance will plummet but there will come a point where you will be at a significant disadvantage to someone who was clean all along.

Are you thinking of Hincapie saying he was clean from 2006-2012? I don't believe that for a second.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I wanted to put up someone who we know was doing EPO, I have looked at the retirement age of the greats of the past, it tends to be prior to 35 years of age.

There may be other reasons of course why people are going on longer, so it is just a thought.

Sure, but he was pretty darn quiet in the twilight years. vs Horner following Froome uphill recently...

 

[Berzin]

Hincapie was diagnosed with deep vein thrombosis right after the last year of "The Cyclism". The doctor treating him told him if he keeps using such prodigious amounts of EPO and blood transfusions he's going to suffer much more serious medical issues sooner rather than later.

He stopped using EPO and blood transfusions after that.

And no, Hincapie will never admit to this, so don't expect any confession from him.

 

[ElChingon]

Don't do the dope if you can't do the side effects.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Don't do the dope if you can't do the side effects.

This is very true, but a lot of the lads when they start doping in their early 20 don't think about the consequences or I suppose, more often, actually believe the doctor who gives them the dope and tells them it has no side effect and will help them.

Refer to the different books of convicted ex-dopers, there is like almost every time a line in there where they actually believe that it is going to help their health (as the doctor says so, it must be true)

That is the main reason why doping should be banned and keep being banned, to protect the young hopefuls from killing themselves in the long run

 

[ElChingon]

This is very true, but a lot of the lads when they start doping in their early 20 don't think about the consequences or I suppose, more often, actually believe the doctor who gives them the dope and tells them it has no side effect and will help them.

Refer to the different books of convicted ex-dopers, there is like almost every time a line in there where they actually believe that it is going to help their health (as the doctor says so, it must be true)

That is the main reason why doping should be banned and keep being banned, to protect the young hopefuls from killing themselves in the long run

Maybe there should be a grade school program where they get people they might admire/respect to go tell them drugs are bad and they show them the side effect by exaggerating them like showing people with extra limbs or something

They all know and have known since they were kids, lets not try to justify doping because a 20 YEAR OLD might be too young to know the side effect of when you know well enough they know. Had they've been less than 10 years old I might of given them the benefit of a doubt but 20, COME ON!

 

[Roude Leiw]

I am not justifying it at all. I just said that these young people very often have neither the maturity nor the education to make a reasoned judgement about why to dope or not. It comes mostly for them down to ethics and ethics then go down the drain because everybody else does it as well.

 

[SeriousSam]

The long term effects of doping probably range from negative to neutral to positive, depending on what you're using and dosages.

 

[sideshadow]

Should ex-dopers be allowed back?

This raises the question then of whether 'ex-dopers' should be allowed back into a sport.

In the context of a professional athlete, I would think that androgens or other anabolic drugs leads very much to a long- to permanent advantage, doesn't it? You won't lose the extra gained muscle mass, because there is a relatively chronic training stimulus, and as pointed out it leads to a large increase in sustainable training load, which should also increase performance down the line, possibly influencing the 'central governor', if you believe the theory.

EPO receptors aren't only expressed in cells of the erythroid lineage. It is found in the brain, heart, skeletal muscle, kidney and endothelial cells (blood vessels). (1)

It not only increases Hb, but also stimulates mitochondrial biogenesis and angiogenesis(2), I would think that these new vessels and mitochondria should provide at least a long term improvement in training adaptations, shouldn't it?

Not to mention the genetic doping agents such as AICAR.

Furthermore if an athlete uses drugs at a young age and stands first in line when contracts are handed out, that's it, he's made it. I'm especially talking about sports like rugby where the juiced guy gets the contract at 18 and the second stringers are left behind, they missed their shot, so to speak.

Testing at that age really is near non-existent.

I'm currently moving towards the viewpoint that an athlete has to prove that he is clean. Move away from the 'innocent until proven guilty' viewpoint. Release blood data, power data and test results and prove that you are clean, rather than us proving guilt.

(1) http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/6/1025.full
(2) http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/106/11/1722.full

 

[D-Queued]

This raises the question then of whether 'ex-dopers' should be allowed back into a sport.

In the context of a professional athlete, I would think that androgens or other anabolic drugs leads very much to a long- to permanent advantage, doesn't it? You won't lose the extra gained muscle mass, because there is a relatively chronic training stimulus, and as pointed out it leads to a large increase in sustainable training load, which should also increase performance down the line, possibly influencing the 'central governor', if you believe the theory.

EPO receptors aren't only expressed in cells of the erythroid lineage. It is found in the brain, heart, skeletal muscle, kidney and endothelial cells (blood vessels). (1)

It not only increases Hb, but also stimulates mitochondrial biogenesis and angiogenesis(2), I would think that these new vessels and mitochondria should provide at least a long term improvement in training adaptations, shouldn't it?

Not to mention the genetic doping agents such as AICAR.

Furthermore if an athlete uses drugs at a young age and stands first in line when contracts are handed out, that's it, he's made it. I'm especially talking about sports like rugby where the juiced guy gets the contract at 18 and the second stringers are left behind, they missed their shot, so to speak.

Testing at that age really is near non-existent.

I'm currently moving towards the viewpoint that an athlete has to prove that he is clean. Move away from the 'innocent until proven guilty' viewpoint. Release blood data, power data and test results and prove that you are clean, rather than us proving guilt.

(1) http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/6/1025.full
(2) http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/106/11/1722.full

Thanks for the insight.

Even with testosterone or any steroid doping, the beneficial impacts can clearly provide a permanent benefit.

Dave.

 

[V3R1T4S]

Permanent adaptations

This is why I think that, in cycling, the authorities should just throw out the "out of competition" list and crack down with lifetime bans on the "permanently banned" list.

Maybe I'm naive, but the former just seems like a bunch of stimulants and recreational drugs.

The latter is the heavy duty stuff that causes permanent gains and creates a lasting unfair advantage.

 

[orbeas]

Doping

A very good example of the effects of doping on runners is the British Sprinter Dwain Chambers..
Look at pictures of him pre-doping, then when doping and now back running dope free..
There is no difference in his build when doping and now !!!
So it seems the use of drugs does help when you stop using them ???

 

[Cycle Chic]

BBC News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rdzzw

Interesting bit on bbc news the other day. Discusses how steroids are being used to STAY YOUNG.

Quite a good segment on the old guy in the gym - using steroids.

Also a bit where a doctor says they don't yet know the long term effects of steroids - but do know it increases TUMOUR GROWTH IN THE PROSTATE.....Mr Armstrong springs to mind.

Soz if this has already been posted.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Move away from the 'innocent until proven guilty' viewpoint. Release blood data, power data and test results and prove that you are clean, rather than us proving guilt.

On this point, good luck getting the IOC to back this. The list of excuses would be endless.

You may be missing the fact that the bio-passport as operated today is and has been a sham. In order to have a legitimate bio-passport program, authority to select athletes, select tests, and open cases must pass to WADA. That alone would generate a positive queue several years long.

Add backdated testing with current penalties and the risks of doping become so high that a reasonable athlete will not bother beyond low levels.

Yes, there will still be doping, and most importantly there are dramatic advances in the field of human biology where PEDs are rapidly moving beyond steroids and hormones.

Maybe WADA needs the authority to test and open cases first?

 

[DirtyWorks]

So it seems the use of drugs does help when you stop using them ???

Depending on the drug, yes.

Two examples:

1. EPO use does it's magic, then when the athlete stops, their body's EPO production is practically shut off and they are temporarily worse off until their body makes it again. Someone can correct me if I've summarized that wrong.

2. Imagine the difference in fitness over 60 days if you can recover 1% better than a natural athelete. All without testing positive. There are peptide combinations for doing just that now and without the complications of on/off steriod cycles.

One research paper published long ago had the benefits of transfusions going out for weeks. Weeks!

 

[DirtyWorks]

This is why I think that, in cycling, the authorities should just throw out the "out of competition" list and crack down with lifetime bans on the "permanently banned" list.

One of the problems here is "the authorities" are in on the doping. We've got known cases of clearly positive samples never being processed, the head of the federation threatening to turn riders positive, bribes, the guy in charge of the anti-doping system telling riders how the tests work with great specificity.

Even if the federation were a fair dealer, the problem is controlling for false positives. The last I read Landis still doesn't know how he got the TdF positive. He claims he never used that drug.

 

[sideshadow]

On this point, good luck getting the IOC to back this. The list of excuses would be endless.

You may be missing the fact that the bio-passport as operated today is and has been a sham.

Maybe WADA needs the authority to test and open cases first?

Yes I agree. I know it will be impossible in the near future to get this officially going, but why not release the data to the public at least. I know the APB is a joke and that's sort of my point, Lance released his 2009 data and we could clearly see that he was still manipulating his blood. The OFF-score that the APB is using should be much lower. Re. WADA, I agree.

1. EPO use does it's magic, then when the athlete stops, their body's EPO production is practically shut off and they are temporarily worse off until their body makes it again. Someone can correct me if I've summarized that wrong.

This is not true. Endogenous EPO production doesn't work via a negative feedback loop, such as your endocrine system, i.e. your body doesn't detect excess EPO and shuts endogenous production down. Instead, feedback regulation is based on the tissue O2 pressure, which, for the most part, depends on the Hb concentration. The most appropriate site for controlling EPO production are the kidneys, because pO2 remains relatively stable here. When [Hb], and thus pO2, are low it acts as a direct stimulus for endogenous EPO release. Of course when rhEPO is administered [Hb] is higher and there is no stimulus for endogenous EPO release, so it 'shuts down', but the moment [Hb], and thus pO2, falls back to normal, endogenous EPO release resumes as normal. (1)

I have also heard that they are worse off, but I would prescribe this entirely to placebo, they don't remember how bad they were.

(1) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0609.2007.00818.x/full

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

A very good example of the effects of doping on runners is the British Sprinter Dwain Chambers..
Look at pictures of him pre-doping, then when doping and now back running dope free..
There is no difference in his build when doping and now !!!
So it seems the use of drugs does help when you stop using them ???

Maybe he is still doping. Unlikely of course because he has said he isn't but you never know.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Maybe he is still doping. Unlikely of course because he has said he isn't but you never know.

He's still working with Victor Conte which seems extremely dodgy.

Why would you work with a guy like that a get trashed in the press if you are clean now.

When Conte was on the Joe Rogan experience he laughed at the idea that his former associate from the Balco scandal Angel Hernandez/Memo Heredia/Angel Heredia was now working clean.

There are other guys Chambers could go to for advice about nutrition.

 

[D-Queued]

Long term effects of doping?

Took these gems from the Statesman article on Lance competing in master's swimming:

So now Armstong is resorting to racing against middle aged amateur swimmers.

What next, semi-pro bocce ball? Round robin dart tourneys?

Good for Lance Dopestrong. He found a competion where he can continue his drug use and blood doping without any penalities.

Etc.

Long term effects? Once a doper, always a loser.

Dave.

 

[JimmyFingers]

He's still working with Victor Conte which seems extremely dodgy.

Why would you work with a guy like that a get trashed in the press if you are clean now.

When Conte was on the Joe Rogan experience he laughed at the idea that his former associate from the Balco scandal Angel Hernandez/Memo Heredia/Angel Heredia was now working clean.

There are other guys Chambers could go to for advice about nutrition.

Plus he swore on telly after he won the Olympic qualifying race.

I will say I doubt he still is, he would be an idiot and presumably is heavily monitored (or at least, I would hope he is). BOC really didn't want him at the Olympics, and their own lifetime ban for drugs cheats was overturned by WADA, forcing them to accept Chambers and Millar.

 

[The Hitch]

He's still working with Victor Conte which seems extremely dodgy.

Why would you work with a guy like that a get trashed in the press if you are clean now.

When Conte was on the Joe Rogan experience he laughed at the idea that his former associate from the Balco scandal Angel Hernandez/Memo Heredia/Angel Heredia was now working clean.

There are other guys Chambers could go to for advice about nutrition.

When chambers got caught he told the truth. He said it's not possible to win 100m races without doping. Did anyone take him seriously? Was anything done. Did the press take this up?

No, they told him to **** off.

If chambers is doping again I can't condemn him. It's not a sport you can win clean in, but everyone is too busy making money off the superhuman performnces the average Joe wants to see.

poetic that he's with conte, who also told them how it was and was also told his contributions are unwanted.