Mancebo in the Pog era

[Brullnux]

Voeckler and Van Den Broeck were 4th in early '10s.
The jury is still on, but Onley may end up as a better rider than them.
But yes, I agree, the average depth of fuel feels rather low now.

Voeckler came 4th because he got 4 minutes in a break and then had the French-in-Yellow-Jersey power up. That was more similar to O'Connor imo.

Van Den Broeck, fair enough. I think the point stands more generally, though. The group behind Pogacar/Vingegaard is still made up of a lot of the names from, like, 7 or 8 years ago – Yates x 2 (pre retirement), Landa, Carapaz, Roglic, Mas. They've made up a lot of the top 5s in past two or three seasons, while a lot of others have shot up only to fade out as quickly (Ayuso, CRod, Hindley, etc.). Given the last few years, I'm expecting something similar to happen to at least some of the latest batch.

 

[Cookster15]

Voeckler came 4th because he got 4 minutes in a break and then had the French-in-Yellow-Jersey power up. That was more similar to O'Connor imo.

In the 2011 TdF Voeckler showed what a strong but not GC contender rider was actually capable of if given an opportunity to ride for himself. In the Pyrenees many expected he would lose minutes but to see him holding on and fighting thanks to the French-in-Yellow-Jersey power up was quite impressive. Eventually the elastic snapped on the final mountain stage to AdH.

 

[Red Rick]

To be fair, the current crop of GC riders feel as if there's one five star contender, one four star, and then a bunch of two-stars and one-stars. The depth at the moment is not great and I don't think it's much better than that period.

Feels harsh to put Vingegaard and Pogacar at 4 and 5 stars respectively, but you know what I mean. Two generational talents and a big, big gap to people who are not better than the 2010s B tier. Onley is a good rider but 4th at the Tour? Really? He feels like he would be a 6th-10th guy back then

You have guys like that get 4th or better in teh TdF in every era. Kruijswijk vs Buchman for 3rd. Jurgen van den Broek. Peraud. Van Garderen. Bardet got 2 podiums.

The only TdF GC that was great from 1 to like 5th place was 2015. Please don't put this in your signature too @tobydawq

 

[YavorD]

You have guys like that get 4th or better in teh TdF in every era. Kruijswijk vs Buchman for 3rd. Jurgen van den Broek. Peraud. Van Garderen. Bardet got 2 podiums.

The only TdF GC that was great from 1 to like 5th place was 2015. Please don't put this in your signature too @tobydawq

2024 was very solid as well IMO.
Pogacar, Vingegaard, Evenepoel, Almeida and Landa are all top riders.

But yeah, I don't think any GT comes close to TdF 2015, where top 5 were all GT winners. I mean, how many GT have had a top 5 of GT winners (in or around their prime) in the history?

 

[Forever The Best]

To be fair, the current crop of GC riders feel as if there's one five star contender, one four star, and then a bunch of two-stars and one-stars. The depth at the moment is not great and I don't think it's much better than that period.

Feels harsh to put Vingegaard and Pogacar at 4 and 5 stars respectively, but you know what I mean. Two generational talents and a big, big gap to people who are not better than the 2010s B tier. Onley is a good rider but 4th at the Tour? Really? He feels like he would be a 6th-10th guy back then

Vingegaard is 4 stars because of Pogacar. Without Pogacar, he is basically unbeaten since 2021 in GTs (Okay I think Roglic was stronger than Vingegaard in 2021 but still) (Also 2023 Vuelta Vingegaard could have won, basically gifted to Kuss). I think he is more dominant than Froome or Contador for example. (Again, excluding Pogacar).

Froome went up against Uran and Bardet in 2017 Tour for example and didn't even win by that much. Compare that with the margins Vingegaard put on the rest in the Tours (okay, this was partly due to racing between Pogacar and Vingegaard being very aggressive but still, Froome was struggling on some stages against them - barely happened to Vingegaard)

Also there were plenty of weaker riders finishing 4th at Tour. VDB in 2012, pre-UAE Adam Yates in 2016, Buchmann in 2019 (though this was the cross over period)

 

[Forever The Best]

2024 was very solid as well IMO.
Pogacar, Vingegaard, Evenepoel, Almeida and Landa are all top riders.

But yeah, I don't think any GT comes close to TdF 2015, where top 5 were all GT winners. I mean, how many GT have had a top 5 of GT winners (in or around their prime) in the history?

Roglic would have been up there too without his DNF, probably fighting Evenepoel for 3rd.

 

[dercuforever]

2024 was very solid as well IMO.
Pogacar, Vingegaard, Evenepoel, Almeida and Landa are all top riders.

But yeah, I don't think any GT comes close to TdF 2015, where top 5 were all GT winners. I mean, how many GT have had a top 5 of GT winners (in or around their prime) in the history?

Don't look top 10 of 2015 though.
Contador and Nibali were very bad in that Tour, especially on PSM climb IIRC.

The pool seems much deeper today, to me. Many riders with similar top level if you forget Pogacar, Vingegaard, Seixas and 24' Evenepoel.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Big guys from that era would be cooked,pantani would be incredible. His on the drops aero bullet would be problem even for pogacar. Carbs refill engine,guy would be going beserk.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

More asterisks on that luck merchant pocagar. He is lucky that he is not racing against mancebo in his prime.

 

[YavorD]

More asterisks on that luck merchant pocagar. He is lucky that he is not racing against mancebo in his prime.

He is even luckiier that he isn't racing Italian Steve Bradbury.
Nibali's voodoo would inflict at least 2 DNF's for him so far

 

[Brullnux]

You have guys like that get 4th or better in teh TdF in every era. Kruijswijk vs Buchman for 3rd. Jurgen van den Broek. Peraud. Van Garderen. Bardet got 2 podiums.

The only TdF GC that was great from 1 to like 5th place was 2015. Please don't put this in your signature too @tobydawq

Bardet is better than someone like CRod though. Peraud was helped by everyone abandoning, and Kruijswijk was actually good (Buchmann less so).

The 2024 Tour had a rock solid top five, but the level of that Tour was crazy. But at the back end of last year, Simon Yates was probably the 5 or 6th most reliable GT rider, and Carapaz not far behind him. Outside the aliens from the post-2020 cohort it's basically just Almeida who has established himself as a consistent GT performer.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

2024 was very solid as well IMO.
Pogacar, Vingegaard, Evenepoel, Almeida and Landa are all top riders.

But yeah, I don't think any GT comes close to TdF 2015, where top 5 were all GT winners. I mean, how many GT have had a top 5 of GT winners (in or around their prime) in the history?

tdf 1972
Mercxk
Gimondi
Poulidor
Van Impe
Zoetemelk

47 grand tour podiums between them, 20 wins

*Indurain also did this in 1995 , there doesn’t seem to be many others that have done it in the tour, there’s probably a few in the giro and vuelta

 

[YavorD]

tdf 1972
Mercxk
Gimondi
Poulidor
Van Impe
Zoetemelk

47 grand tour podiums between them, 20 wins

Well, nor Van Impe, nor Zortemelk were GT winners at the time of that Tour.
But thanks, that's a great set of riders (also known as farmers) in top 5

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

Well, nor Van Impe, nor Zortemelk were GT winners at the time of that Tour.
But thanks, that's a great set of riders (also known as farmers) in top 5

Ah, well at least they were all very capable of winning the tour, enjoy your modern two horse races do you?

 

[YavorD]

Ah, well at least they were all very capable of winning the tour, enjoy your modern two horse races do you?

I never said I enjoy the modern era.
However, if you don't enjoy Pogacar's Merckx like achievements you have very little argument to say that Merckx' era was better. 2 horse race is still better than one horse race, is it not?

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I never said I enjoy the modern era.
However, if you don't enjoy Pogacar's Merckx like achievements you have very little argument to say that Merckx' era was better. 2 horse race is still better than one horse race, is it not?

It was only a one horse race because Merckx was so good, Ocana still put him in trouble, Gimondi could beat him on his day, the next best half or dozen riders were all great riders.
The next best behind Pog and Vingegaard now, none of them are great, none of them are consistent. They suit the term farmers more to me, but each his own

 

[BubbaChuck]

In Mercks era there was crazy diifference between top riders and rest,not even in same universe.Molteni had insane power in everything.Guy like Ocana was not playing under same rules. Picture,if guy like Jonas or Remco had severe handicap and Pog was just running over them. Guys were even smoking and drinking,while some had tip top medical teams to keep that engine running. And there were other darker arts.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

In Mercks era there was crazy diifference between top riders and rest,not even in same universe.Molteni had insane power in everything.Guy like Ocana was not playing under same rules. Picture,if guy like Jonas or Remco had severe handicap and Pog was just running over them. Guys were even smoking and drinking,while some had tip top medical teams to keep that engine running. And there were other darker arts.

Not true though, more riders were consistently on the podium or in the top ten, now even Remco despite his talent hasn’t shown much consistency in the gts.

 

[YavorD]

It was only a one horse race because Merckx was so good, Ocana still put him in trouble, Gimondi could beat him on his day, the next best half or dozen riders were all great riders.
The next best behind Pog and Vingegaard now, none of them are great, none of them are consistent. They suit the term farmers more to me, but each his own

Again, I never said that I enjoy today's era and rate today's field rather high. You can easily check my comments back and see my position that "today's depth seems rather low", so I'm not sure what are you trying to imply.
I only said that (unless your biased, or belgian perhaps a Merckx fan) Merckx' era has no argument to be considered better than today's.
2 horse race is better than one horse race, no matter what.


Yes, the riders below Pogacar and Vingegaard are very inconsistent. But you almost sound as if you're saying that Merckx won a lot because he is a great rider, but Pogacar/Vingegaard are winning because of the level of competition.
In fact, all of them are great riders and normally win a lot.
Perhaps with a bit more consistent competition they wouldn't put such a gaps, but I have no reason to believe they would win less whatsoever.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

Again, I never said that I enjoy today's era and rate today's field rather high. You can easily check my comments back and see my position that "today's depth seems rather low", so I'm not sure what are you trying to imply.
I only said that (unless your biased, or belgian perhaps a Merckx fan) Merckx' era has no argument to be considered better than today's.
2 horse race is better than one horse race, no matter what.


Yes, the riders below Pogacar and Vingegaard are very inconsistent. But you almost sound as if you're saying that Merckx won a lot because he is a great rider, but Pogacar/Vingegaard are winning because of the level of competition.
In fact, all of them are great riders and normally win a lot.
Perhaps with a bit more consistent competition they wouldn't put such a gaps, but I have no reason to believe they would win less whatsoever.

There’s not really much difference- If not for either one of Ving or Pog this would be much more of a one horse race era than any ever, it would almost be a joke how much better one rider was than the rest of the peloton, it would be unprecedented.
Just the fact there happens to be two really good riders masks how atrociously bad everyone else is

 

[YavorD]

There’s not really much difference- If not for either one of Ving or Pog this would be much more of a one horse race era than any ever, it would almost be a joke how much better one rider was than the rest of the peloton, it would be unprecedented.
Just the fact there happens to be two really good riders masks how atrociously bad everyone else is

Yes, I agree.
But then again, throughout the history we've always had dominion. And I don't think the depth of field is so much of a benefit if the winner is all but clear before the race even starts.
And if Vingegaard can actually be strong enough to give a proper battle, I would happily take this over Armstrong, Indurain etc.

 

[Escarabajo]

Paco versus Sevilla Thread incoming!