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Many will go down now

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Mont Ventoux said:
How the hell does Menchov not get caught?? :confused:
Methinks the protection racket favours him. Not good for the outright winner to tarnish a Grand Tour.
Diluca is not a bad rider, and his CERA program made him very dangerous!
So how the heck does Menchov win and escape the doping Police??

Menchov could have been using straight blood transfusions and little else, certainly not CERA during or immediately before the Giro.

Di Luca likely went down because he is stupid, made a mistake, or was acting on bad information. The $64K question is why he would be using CERA, given that it stays in the body and is detectable for weeks. CERA would seem like a very bad choice to use at any time, racing or training.

It does not make a lot of sense unless Di Luca is as dumb as a bag of hammers. The only thing I can think of is that he was relying on some sort of masking that did not work or for some reason he thought that he would not be tested for CERA.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Menchov could have been using straight blood transfusions and little else, certainly not CERA during or immediately before the Giro.

Di Luca likely went down because he is stupid, made a mistake, or was acting on bad information. The $64K question is why he would be using CERA, given that it stays in the body and is detectable for weeks. CERA would seem like a very bad choice to use at any time, racing or training.

It does not make a lot of sense unless Di Luca is as dumb as a bag of hammers. The only thing I can think of is that he was relying on some sort of masking that did not work or for some reason he thought that he would not be tested for CERA.

Could there have been traces of Cera in stored blood that he was transfusing?
 
May 26, 2009
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rolfrae said:
Could there have been traces of Cera in stored blood that he was transfusing?

Still begs the question: why Cera after last years drama? Why not Dynepo?

I think it was a case of bad info. He thought this particular type of Cera would be undetectable or that his dope cycle would show him up clean. Or worse, he didn't think about it at all and blindly trusted a dottore.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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Franklin said:
Still begs the question: why Cera after last years drama? Why not Dynepo?

I think it was a case of bad info. He thought this particular type of Cera would be undetectable or that his dope cycle would show him up clean. Or worse, he didn't think about it at all and blindly trusted a dottore.

or worst - he had good reason to think the authorities weren't really interested in taking him or any other top rider down
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Turns out Thomas Dekker tested positive for epo on xmas eve.

immediately there were complaints here in Holland along the lines of "why would anyone use epo in the winter" etc.

From what i understand the winter is the time that riders draw blood for in season transfusions.

Are they using epo in the winter to "boost" the blood that is then drained and stored?

And/or are they using it to recover from the loss of blood and stay within bio passport parameters?

Or is this eveidence of year round microdosing?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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i do get worried when the governing body turn round and say he could catch some cheats but we aren't going to bother
 
Aug 6, 2009
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This news is no surprise. Isn't an 'open secret' that part of the deal to get Armstrong to ride the Giro was that the '08 samples wouldn't be retested?
Lance didn't confirm his participation in this year's race until Zomegann had made the announcement that they would'nt be tested.

Now that Lance doesn't need to care about a positive for Contador or Astana, its open season.
Condtador may well join the club of riders who have fallen foul of Lance and then gone on to test positive, eg Hamilton, Landis, Herras etc.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Mongol_Waaijer said:
Turns out Thomas Dekker tested positive for epo on xmas eve.

immediately there were complaints here in Holland along the lines of "why would anyone use epo in the winter" etc.

From what i understand the winter is the time that riders draw blood for in season transfusions.

Are they using epo in the winter to "boost" the blood that is then drained and stored?

And/or are they using it to recover from the loss of blood and stay within bio passport parameters?

Or is this eveidence of year round microdosing?

This is one of the theories for Di Luca's positive: for whatever reason, he had EPO in his system when his blood was drawn in the off-season and then he tested positive when he transfused for the Giro because CERA is such a long-lasting EPO.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Logic, anyone?

Clearly there are too many conspiracy theorists out there. Why do people doubt that Alberto Contador is clean? Well, of course it is because he has done impressive things on the bike! Has anyone stopped to think about how many times Contador was tested in the '09 Tour, not to mention in the last 1 1/2 years? When you are winning stages, wearing the leader's jersey and consistently near or at the top of the GC standings in all the major tours, you are going to be tested nearly EVERY DAY. Not a single suspicious thing has ever been found. Do you really think that Johan Bruyneel has the "magic formula" for successfully doping without being caught? On top of his enormous responsibilities as director, this would involve a huge time and money commitment, not to mention the fact that a single slipup would mean the end of everything -- job, reputation, etc. I don't believe it. Conspiracy theorists - you need to get a life!
 
Apr 9, 2009
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sgreene said:
Clearly there are too many conspiracy theorists out there. Why do people doubt that Alberto Contador is clean? Well, of course it is because he has done impressive things on the bike! Has anyone stopped to think about how many times Contador was tested in the '09 Tour, not to mention in the last 1 1/2 years? When you are winning stages, wearing the leader's jersey and consistently near or at the top of the GC standings in all the major tours, you are going to be tested nearly EVERY DAY. Not a single suspicious thing has ever been found. Do you really think that Johan Bruyneel has the "magic formula" for successfully doping without being caught? On top of his enormous responsibilities as director, this would involve a huge time and money commitment, not to mention the fact that a single slipup would mean the end of everything -- job, reputation, etc. I don't believe it. Conspiracy theorists - you need to get a life!

So you think that to suspect a top rider of doping means you have to be a conspiracy theorist? Get a life indeed. Been following cycling long?

And what are you talking about a slip-up meaning the "end of everything?" How long have Saiz and Lefevre been around? Hell, Andreu and Swart confessed to using epo on the 1999 Postal squad under Bruyneel.
 
sgreene said:
Clearly there are too many conspiracy theorists out there. Why do people doubt that Alberto Contador is clean? Well, of course it is because he has done impressive things on the bike! Has anyone stopped to think about how many times Contador was tested in the '09 Tour, not to mention in the last 1 1/2 years? When you are winning stages, wearing the leader's jersey and consistently near or at the top of the GC standings in all the major tours, you are going to be tested nearly EVERY DAY. Not a single suspicious thing has ever been found. Do you really think that Johan Bruyneel has the "magic formula" for successfully doping without being caught? On top of his enormous responsibilities as director, this would involve a huge time and money commitment, not to mention the fact that a single slipup would mean the end of everything -- job, reputation, etc. I don't believe it. Conspiracy theorists - you need to get a life!

Is it even worth responding to morons like this? How many times does it have to be pointed out that a huge number of riders who have been caught have been caught by police investigations but have never tested positive? How few brain cells does it take to come to the conclusion that testing must not be very effective? How often does it have to be explained that there are substances and techniques, including the most important one, autologous blood doping, that are not detectable?

Contador rode for LIberty Seguros, a team with a teamwide doping program. That seems pretty suspicious to me. He was mentioned, according to Werner Franke, in the Operation Puerto documents. Double suspicious. He is now performing at a level equal to that of the the years of unrestricted EPO use, maybe even better. Triple suspicious. Gosh, with the whole Liberty Seguros and Kelme teams on doping programs, how many actually tested positive? Hmmm, maybe the testing does not work so well
 
Jun 19, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Is it even worth responding to morons like this? How many times does it have to be pointed out that a huge number of riders who have been caught have been caught by police investigations but have never tested positive? How few brain cells does it take to come to the conclusion that testing must not be very effective? How often does it have to be explained that there are substances and techniques, including the most important one, autologous blood doping, that are not detectable?

Contador rode for LIberty Seguros, a team with a teamwide doping program. That seems pretty suspicious to me. He was mentioned, according to Werner Franke, in the Operation Puerto documents. Double suspicious. He is now performing at a level equal to that of the the years of unrestricted EPO use, maybe even better. Triple suspicious. Gosh, with the whole Liberty Seguros and Kelme teams on doping programs, how many actually tested positive? Hmmm, maybe the testing does not work so well

It will be interesting how the politics play out. The Carbineri seem to be more aggressive for political reasons and may squeeze more out of this than the UCI would ever want. It could kill UCI control over their version of the WWF (no, not the World Wildlife Fund). The political climate of Italy may dictate whether testing money shows up or not. If it does...
 
The Italian police-don't they have their hands full with massive political fraud, corruption and the mafia?

I really doubt that Contador will be caught out there-think of the implications of having another TDF champion go down the tubes.

And it begs the question-does he get stripped of his 2009 Tour title if his 2008 Giro samples test positive for CERA?

If Bruyneel has so much pull with Pat McQuaid, why couldn't he get a ride in the Tour last year?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Berzin said:
If Bruyneel has so much pull with Pat McQuaid, why couldn't he get a ride in the Tour last year?

Because Patrice Clerc, really antidoping, refused Bruyneel's team and closed the door to McQuaid who was not invited on 2008 TDF run under french federation rules. It was not a UCI event!
How could you have missed the feud between ASO and UCI?
 
May 7, 2009
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quarterpounder said:
McQuaid already told us that Contador is a clean rider, so I don't think there is any reason to re-test any of his samples.

It was comments like that from the UCI that made me think AC was, in fact, somehow "protected".

To be sure, it is just a theory at this point.
 
Berzin said:
If Bruyneel has so much pull with Pat McQuaid, why couldn't he get a ride in the Tour last year?

Uh, could it be because McQuaid does not decide who rides the Tour? The ASO does. The ASO along with Unipublic and RCS were making a point that they would not follow the ProTour rules on race invites, that they, the race owners and organizers, would invite the teams they wanted to invite. In a similar fashion, the dispute between the organizers and the UCI Pro Tour is the reason why teams like Unibet were left in the cold.
 
May 7, 2009
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sgreene said:
Clearly there are too many conspiracy theorists out there. Why do people doubt that Alberto Contador is clean? Well, of course it is because he has done impressive things on the bike! Has anyone stopped to think about how many times Contador was tested in the '09 Tour, not to mention in the last 1 1/2 years? When you are winning stages, wearing the leader's jersey and consistently near or at the top of the GC standings in all the major tours, you are going to be tested nearly EVERY DAY. Not a single suspicious thing has ever been found. Do you really think that Johan Bruyneel has the "magic formula" for successfully doping without being caught? On top of his enormous responsibilities as director, this would involve a huge time and money commitment, not to mention the fact that a single slipup would mean the end of everything -- job, reputation, etc. I don't believe it. Conspiracy theorists - you need to get a life!

Logic, indeed. This argument just doesn't hold water anymore. It places faith in systems that have been shown to be flawed. It makes assumptions of the motives of anyone who dares to doubt a "hero". And history has shown that maybe JB has found some way of avoiding his riders being caught (note the list of his former riders later being caught). I used to think a lot of this was conspiracy, but the writing really IS on the wall. As far as getting a life, most of us are browsing this stuff while at work, and go home and live our lives, I would imagine. There is just too much to dismiss as conspiracy theory.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Berzin said:
The Italian police-don't they have their hands full with massive political fraud, corruption and the mafia?

I really doubt that Contador will be caught out there-think of the implications of having another TDF champion go down the tubes.

And it begs the question-does he get stripped of his 2009 Tour title if his 2008 Giro samples test positive for CERA?

If Bruyneel has so much pull with Pat McQuaid, why couldn't he get a ride in the Tour last year?

Referring to politics within politics. This would be an easy target for someone within government to make a point. Besides, with all the Italian targets presumably being caught it could represent a warped recovery of Italian national parity.

Brodeal pointed out the rest. McQuaid had to blink on this issue or ASO would have departed with the teams in tow.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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sgreene said:
Clearly there are too many conspiracy theorists out there. Why do people doubt that Alberto Contador is clean? Well, of course it is because he has done impressive things on the bike! Has anyone stopped to think about how many times Contador was tested in the '09 Tour, not to mention in the last 1 1/2 years? When you are winning stages, wearing the leader's jersey and consistently near or at the top of the GC standings in all the major tours, you are going to be tested nearly EVERY DAY. Not a single suspicious thing has ever been found. Do you really think that Johan Bruyneel has the "magic formula" for successfully doping without being caught? On top of his enormous responsibilities as director, this would involve a huge time and money commitment, not to mention the fact that a single slipup would mean the end of everything -- job, reputation, etc. I don't believe it. Conspiracy theorists - you need to get a life!

Di Luca has just been popped for doping at this year's Giro. He finished second to Menchov. Contador won the 2008 Giro and hardly broke a sweat. What's the probability that Di Luca was doping at the 08 Giro when he finished just behind Contador? I'd bet that he was. So what does that tell you? If iContador is riding clean, he is a 30 percent better athlete than Di Luca et al if we allow a 20--25 percent Cera/EPO dope boost? I think not. Get a life, indeed.
 
Moller said:
This news is no surprise. Isn't an 'open secret' that part of the deal to get Armstrong to ride the Giro was that the '08 samples wouldn't be retested?
Lance didn't confirm his participation in this year's race until Zomegann had made the announcement that they would'nt be tested.

Now that Lance doesn't need to care about a positive for Contador or Astana, its open season.
Condtador may well join the club of riders who have fallen foul of Lance and then gone on to test positive, eg Hamilton, Landis, Herras etc.

I honestly have a feeling that AC is going to be hung out to dry by Lance, in terms of the UCI. .
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Digger said:
I honestly have a feeling that AC is going to be hung out to dry by Lance, in terms of the UCI. .

Those feelings are often referred to as paranoid.
 
Digger said:
I honestly have a feeling that AC is going to be hung out to dry by Lance, in terms of the UCI. .

I am not that sure about that. The UCI seems to be driven by money. Contador testing positive would do a large amount of damage to the sport and, especially, the Tour de France. But then again, Di Luca was a big star...

If Contador goes down it will likely be due to a police investigation or something like use of CERA when it was thought to be undetectable. Kohl and his manager, with an undoubtedly less sophisticated doping program than what Bruyneel would be running, was smart enough not to use anything except blood transfusions during the Tour. He was only caught out by use of CERA too close to the start of the TdF. If Contador does not get caught by the 2008 Giro retesting then he is likely home free.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Is it even worth responding to morons like this? How many times does it have to be pointed out that a huge number of riders who have been caught have been caught by police investigations but have never tested positive? How few brain cells does it take to come to the conclusion that testing must not be very effective? How often does it have to be explained that there are substances and techniques, including the most important one, autologous blood doping, that are not detectable?

Contador rode for LIberty Seguros, a team with a teamwide doping program. That seems pretty suspicious to me. He was mentioned, according to Werner Franke, in the Operation Puerto documents. Double suspicious. He is now performing at a level equal to that of the the years of unrestricted EPO use, maybe even better. Triple suspicious. Gosh, with the whole Liberty Seguros and Kelme teams on doping programs, how many actually tested positive? Hmmm, maybe the testing does not work so well

Are you calling me a moron because you disagree with me? Very mature. Name-calling has no place here, and I hope you refrain from it in the future. Your arguments are pure speculation. I never mentioned anything except Contador’s results in the last 1 ½ years, all with Johan Bruyneel. He has been tested a huge number of times, both in and out of competition, with the latest and best techniques available. Nothing. Doesn’t it seem strange that the MOST successful Grand Tour team director/team(s) have never had any kind of PROVEN connection with doping? You claim that negative test results do not prove innocence. While technically true, they are all we have at the moment, in addition to the biological passport. Who is your favorite rider? If he is getting top results, then going by your theory he must be doping. If Contador is ever proven guilty of anything, I will be the first to admit I was wrong. Until then, your opinion has no more validity than mine.